shapinglight | TW Children of Earth: Day Five

TW Children of Earth: Day Five

Spoilers within.

I haven't read what anyone else has said about this yet. I didn't get to watch it until very late last night and due to something that happened earlier in the evening, I was already feeling a bit emotional.

This perhaps partly explains my very visceral reaction to this final episode - and it felt like a final episode of the series to me, and in fact I hope it is, because the way I feel at the moment, I don't want to see any more Captain Jack ever. I daresay I'll get over it. As I said, was already feeling pretty emotional and wound up.

Firstly, should say it was a very good episode. The solution was in the end a bit deus ex machina but the sheer horror of it meant that you didn't really notice. This time, RTD stayed true to the spirit of what had gone earlier and gave the darkest, bleakest series finale I've seen on British telly in years. There were individual acts of human heroism, of course - Frobisher's loyal secretary facing up to the prime minister, Gwen and Rhys, Ianto's sister and brother-in-law and the men on the estate trying to defend their children (and I'm tearing up again even as I write this), but overall the behaviour of everyone was pretty appalling.

I started crying when I realised what Frobisher was going to do with that gun and didn't really stop till the episode was over. Give Peter Capaldi a Bafta, someone.

Not sure I can write much more. I was thinking of getting the series on DVD. Maybe I will at some point, but at the moment, I don't think I'd want to watch it again.

One final thing, though: were we supposed to feel sorry for Jack, do you think? Because I don't. All I can think about is his daughter, and how she lost everything - father, child, her whole world - and unlike Jack she can't run away to the stars or wherever he's gone. She's stuck, on earth. Alone.

Bleak, yes. Brilliant, yes. Never, ever thought I'd say that about Torchwood. What a way to go out.

Maybe one day I'll be able to give a more balanced review with a little joke about what Captain John was doing while all this was happening. Just now, I can't.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Well, I do feel sorry for Jack.
He did what he had to do - though he could have asked the kid to volunteer, it would have been redundant, as he would have had to do it anyway.
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few.
But I mostly feel annoyed that there were so many plot-holes, and the ending was so, I don't know, "let's beat the bad guys by reversing the polarity and cross-circuiting to B." If all that was required was sound of a particular frequency, we could have generated that artificially.
I just felt a bit meh. He's pissed away the cast's futures for nothing.
The actors did very well with what they were given - but it wasn't what I'd call science fiction. It was a political thriller with an alien thrown in.

I'm sorry. I can't discuss what Jack did rationally. I don't care if he had no other choice. All I care about is what he did to his daughter.

I disagree with your assessment of the episode as a whole. I thought it was brilliant, though very, very disturbing.

plotholes? What plotholes? I can't think of a single one.

How do you release a virus through bullet-proof glass?

Remember that the aliens were the ones who gave the specifications for how the thing had to be built.On top of that they had a technology far beyond what earth is capable of.

And even aside of that, remember their threat of killing every human being on the planet... Or the fact that they used the threat of a virus before back in the sixties...

Remember that the aliens were the ones who gave the specifications for how the thing had to be built.On top of that they had a technology far beyond what earth is capable of.

So they gave us the technology to build glass you could send a virus through?
And we tooled up to manufacture it within weeks or days?

Plus, there's no way the whole world would just a) let the UK take such a pivotal role or b) roll over just like that.
The Americans would have nuked the building first.

Also, the plot to take kids and give them to aliens would have been all over the internet within minutes.
They wouldn't have been able to get the American quota because so many Americans are armed: they would have had to take the kids away from their homes in dawn raids.

Episode three, I believe dealt with why the UK was allowed to take the role it did.

How would the information have gotten on the internet in the first place? Torchwood had to infiltrate to find out what was going on. And most other people wouldn't have gotten a camera into that room. I'm sure the American meetings about which kids to give away would have been just as guarded.

And as for Americans and their guns...

How would they have known? Yes there would have been fighting, and a lot of it. But they didn't show what fighting there was in the US. The ep focussed on the British side of things, not the American side.

Now I'd love to see some fics dealing with the after effects of the episode. Or fics dealing with other countries handling the issue.
But those aren't plotholes, that's just plotbunnies.

Episode three, I believe dealt with why the UK was allowed to take the role it did.

I just didn't find the way they dealt with it convincing.
Getting global agreement for anything takes more than a week.

Someone who knew what was going on would have leaked it.
Maye Frobisher's kids, maybe someone in the military - I'm sure there would have been someone with a conscience among all the people who would have had to have known about it in order to organise such a massive mobilisation.

I don't think there would be many Jewish people who were fooled by the propaganda about "innoculations".

They should have confined it to the UK, then I might have been convinced.

"One final thing, though: were we supposed to feel sorry for Jack, do you think?"

Yes and no. Jacks character has always been the 'muscle', has always done what needed to be done when things got hard, and in this he did what he always does, and ruthlessly carry out what he thought was right, and then flee. Leaving others to pick up the emotional pieces so to speak.

I gotta say I loved it, even though the TW fandom seems to be in meltdown right about now.

I had a quick look at what people were saying, and yes, they do seem a bit upset.

Leaving others to pick up the emotional pieces so to speak.

That's what I can't forgive him for. Yeah, true to character, brilliant telly etc, but I need some distance. Last night's ep left me a bit of a wreck.

It maybe shows that Jack and John aren't so different after all. They're a breed apart being Time agents I'm afraid. You can't trust one as far as you could pick em' up and throw em'.

Oh yeah, I get that. Does mean they don't deserve any pity, though.

Oh man, yes I was just reading about the series online. Yeah I don't think I want to see Jack for a while either. But the Doctor to might have sacfriced his family too in the war with the Daleks. And for the Doctor being ashamed of humanity and not always rescuing it. I don't think he have the same point of view. Even the Doctor can't be everywhere at once, even with his various incarnations.

Even the Doctor can't be everywhere at once, even with his various incarnations.

The Doctor didn't have any place in this story really.

I thought it was an incredible piece of television. I don't think I've ever found a show as disturbing (but brilliant) as I found this one. Peter Capaldi was mesmerising to watch, and even though I was expecting it, the first shot still came as a shock and made me jump.

I have mixed feelings when it comes to Jack. One part of me hates him for what he did, but the other (more rational) part knows that he didn't have any choice. He made the decision that no one else could, and it was heartbreaking, horrifying and completely disturbing to watch. The scene with his grandson upset me more than I can say and, as a parent myself, it was Alice who I felt for in that scene.

I wasn't surprised when Jack ran away - it's what Jack does. But I was glad to see Rhys and Gwen still together and moving forward with their lives.

If this was the last episode of Torchwood, it really did go out with a bang!

The scene with his grandson upset me more than I can say and, as a parent myself, it was Alice who I felt for in that scene.

Same here. That was the end for me where Jack's concerned. I know he was hurting too, I know he was doing the only thing possible to do, but it just couldn't be compared with Alice's suffering. He let her down at every stage of her life, and the only mitigating factor I can see is that at least in his big, runaway scene at the end, he acknowledged that.

This time, RTD stayed true to the spirit of what had gone earlier and gave the darkest, bleakest series finale I've seen on British telly in years.

I was convinced he was going to bottle out and give us a more optimistic ending but it would have been quite wrong after what had gone before. It was amazing, gut-wrenching telly and yes, a BAFTA for Peter Capaldi, please.

One final thing, though: were we supposed to feel sorry for Jack, do you think?

I didn't think so. If he'd stayed when Gwen asked then yes, maybe, but he didn't and that implied to me that he was running away from it all, which was entirely in character. My heart broke for Alice who in summoning her father had killed her son, but Jack did what he had to do and then, understandably, couldn't face the consequences.

I have to disagree. What was he supposed to do? Stick around, hurting Alice even more by trying to force himself on her by staying? That's not running away from consequences, that's simply abiding by the fact that I don't think there's any chance that Alice wanted him to be there at that point.

After what he's had to sacrifice, could anyone really ask him for any more if he at that point in time doesn't feel he has any more left to give?

He stayed for as long as he was needed to be there and then he went to get some peace of mind so that he wouldn't end up hating all of humanity for what he had to do.

I feel for Alice I really do, but if he hadn't done what he did, millions of children would have not just died, they would have suffered for decades, possibly even longer than that. To not even start on the next time that the aliens came back and made yet another demand, cause there's no way that they wouldn't have returned if they'd succeeded this time.

But doing so gutted him, it tore away a part of his soul and his heart and I don't think that his soul would have survived it if he hadn't run away. Compared to that pain, half a year was nothing, and he deserves to get his head back together, before returning.

What was he supposed to do? Stick around, hurting Alice even more by trying to force himself on her by staying?

I don't think he should have stayed near Alice, no, and I agree that he made the only choice possible, but Torchwood had a job to do and now no-one is doing it. Who's guarding the Rift? Who's looking out for alien technology in the wrong hands? No-one else has Jack's experience in this, certainly not pregnant Gwen. What happened to Jack was terrible but I still got the impression that he was choosing to run rather than deal with the fact that the Earth still needs protecting.

but Torchwood had a job to do and now no-one is doing it.
We don't know that. It's possible that Gwen has recruited Lois and Johnson and Andy, and is busy overseeing things. It's true that no one else has Jack's expertise, but he was only the boss for 9 years. Before that he was a freelance agent, and quite obviously didn't spend all his time in Cardiff. Plus, UNIT. Not to mention that the government is very aware of Torchwood (TW still have those recordings) and can probably get all the funding they want.

I still got the impression that he was choosing to run rather than deal with the fact that the Earth still needs protecting.
And protecting the Earth had cost him every single person he had come to care about, and forced him to murder his grandson and destroy his daughter's life. I can see why he runs, and I'm not sure it's a bad choice.

I don't think we're going to agree on this one because while I can perfectly understand why he runs there comes a point where he has to face things. Gwen gave him a chance to do that and he didn't take it.

there comes a point where he has to face things.
Oh absolutely. But he's not reached that point yet. It might be centuries before he gets there.

If he'd stayed when Gwen asked then yes, maybe, but he didn't and that implied to me that he was running away from it all, which was entirely in character. My heart broke for Alice who in summoning her father had killed her son, but Jack did what he had to do and then, understandably, couldn't face the consequences.

Coming back very belatedly and after everyone is all talked out to say that I think this sums up how I feel about Jack perfectly. Thank you.

I'm still stunned

It was brilliant and horrible , it's got into my head and I wish to stop thinking thinky thoughts and get on with stuff but I can't.
And I will buy the DVDS but it's gonna be a while before I can watch this again

And I will buy the DVDS but it's gonna be a while before I can watch this again

I've already bought them, but I'm not sure when I shall watch again. Not for a while.

I didn't sleep very well, as my head was too full of disturbance. It was so incredibly bleak. Brilliant TV - and I don't care about the plot-holes because the acting and, yes, even RTD's writing, were so powerful.

It makes me want to cry for the human race. And what it says about RTD's view of life is incredibly depressing.

I have to process it properly - meta later. But for now I think I need something very comforting indeed.

But for now I think I need something very comforting indeed.

Yes, that's how I feel. I've been trying not to think about it, but I can't stop myself. RTD made Joss look a bit of an amateur.

RTD made Joss look a bit of an amateur.

Hmm. I think

Belonging

had a similar effect on my first time round. They are so familiar that it's hard to get the same emotional response as the first time, but

The Body

is still the best ever, when it comes to harrowing. This is fit to be mentioned in the same breath, though, which says a lot about how far TW has come.

Belonging? I seem to have had some kind of brainstorm today. What's that? Is is a BtVS episode, because I don't remember it. All I can think of is a Spangel fanfic I wrote myself that had that name.

As for The Body, I agree that parts of it are very harrowing. However, I find other parts annoy me, so I can't quite agree with your assessment.

Belonging

is my stupid mistype for

Becoming

. I mean the episode where Buffy kills Angel.

As for

The Body

, despite a few plotholes (first response just wouldn't leave someone alone with a body like that) I thought it was astonishingly powerful, and still feel so on rewatch. I rather think some bits of COE will annoy me on rewatch too.

It deserves a

lot

of BAFTAs, though.

There have been so many angry reviews of this it's a relief to find some people who saw the same show I did. Which was agonising, but very, very good. I don't have children, not likely to, and yet the taking of the children and the parents trying to stop it got me more emotionally wound up than anything I've watched for a long time.

Of all the memorable moments in this I'd nominate Frobisher as he tried to pick up the gun for the first time - not some mimsy shaking hand but absolute jerking revulsion against what he was about to do. Which we could see coming and couldn't stop.

Sorry for Jack? Yes, in that I can see he's lost a great deal. But he at least had power and had choices (albeit horrible ones). So many people didn't have that. And he will live and can run away.

Thanks be for the mouthy determined very human Welsh cast - they are the ones we connected with. Jack isn't human any more.

and yet the taking of the children and the parents trying to stop it got me more emotionally wound up than anything I've watched for a long time.

That's what happened to me too. I was shocked at the strength of my own reaction, in fact. I couldn't stop crying. Then this morning I saw an American poster saying how if it had been the US, people would have fought back because they have guns, and that made me even more angry (which is probably equally irrational, but there it is).

Sorry for Jack? Yes, in that I can see he's lost a great deal. But he at least had power and had choices (albeit horrible ones). So many people didn't have that. And he will live and can run away.

Yes, the bastard - leaving the world a lot worse off than when he arrived.

I pretty much loathe him at the moment.

Which, if you think about it, is testament yet again to how powerful this series was. The rational side of my brain (not much in evidence today) knows this, while the other less rational side is still shaking and upset.

Jack isn't human any more.

As he knows himself. "Look what I became".

I want to know what Jack was doing for 6 months before he met up with Gwen again.

Angel-like brooding, I suspect.

were we supposed to feel sorry for Jack, do you think? Because I don't. All I can think about is his daughter, and how she lost everything - father, child, her whole world - and unlike Jack she can't run away to the stars or wherever he's gone. She's stuck, on earth. Alone.
True. However, he will have to live with what he did. Forever. Whereas she will one day find peace. That doesn't mean that her fate doesn't tear me apart (so dark. So, so dark).

And as for Jack, then I think he is now at pretty much the same point the Doctor was when we first met him in 'Rose'. Running and never stopping, because he can't live with what he did. Despite utterly gutting me, I love Torchwood for showing what DW can't... Because the Doctor did the same thing, just on a much, much bigger scale. From 'The Empty Child':

DR CONSTANTINE: Before this war began, I was a father and a grandfather. Now I am neither. But I am still a doctor.
THE DOCTOR: Yeah. Know the feeling.

Children of Earth was one of the most horrible and brilliant things I've ever watched, and Ianto's death gutted me on a level I hadn't thought possible. But I can't hate Jack. ETA: Re. Jack: this says a lot about how I feel about him.

However, he will have to live with what he did. Forever

Sounds about right to me.

I gave in to the mass-discussion and watched it all today (bye-bye, my Saturday...). I absolutely adored Frobisher and Peter Capaldi; I have a thing about that sort of tragic pragmatism. It was a bit like Wesley in A3 for me...

As far as Jack goes, personally I don't think we're supposed to feel sorry for him so much as stare at him like guppies and wonder if surface really is all there is. I thought it was the most chilling bit of tragic irony when his daughter told Aunty Terrorist that, if she wanted to protect the state above all else, she needed him - because it was true. :(

Yes, I agree with your entire comment, and so glad you didn't regret giving up your Saturday. It was terrific stuff, and such a contrast with previous TW. I watched the final episode of season 2 on Friday and ended up in gales of laughter.

Poor ickle unloved Captain John. ( :D )

You mean at the end of Exit Wounds? I'm sure he bounced right back.

To be honest, I can't entirely remember what happens, but I remember moping about Jack not having enough time for him and his whole plan going tits up...

Ah, maybe you mean Kiss, Kiss, Bang, Bang, then? That ep's still lots of fun. It was Jack's voiceover in the title sequence and the slo-mo power shot that had me in hysterics. So silly. I'm glad they ditched it for TW: CoE.

I thought there was more moping? Before he buries Jack in pre-Roman Cardiff? Eh, maybe not. And hee!! The title sequence... I'm sure it sounded edgy when they first thought of it.

I thought there was more moping? Before he buries Jack in pre-Roman Cardiff?

Oh, so you do mean Exit Wounds? No, you're right. There was lots more moping, along with telling Jack he loved him and shooting him full of bullet holes.

The title sequence... I'm sure it sounded edgy when they first thought of it.

It might have worked if the Torchwood team hadn't come across as a bunch of idiots.

It might have worked if the Torchwood team hadn't come across as a bunch of idiots.

I dunno - I'm pretty sure it was doomed the moment Dead Ringers came up with that bit about the Kwik Save...

Hee!

One final thing, though: were we supposed to feel sorry for Jack, do you think?

To some extent, yes, but I'm right there with you in a way: the bastard doesn't deserve forgiveness now, and at least the story seems to recognize that. Like I just said to

elisi - it's going to take him 5 billion years to die in peace, and his last words to the timelord who let his entire race die are "you are not alone"...

And like everyone else has said, Peter Capaldi was brilliant. It took me the whole first episode to remember where I knew him from - the nerdy kid in Local Hero - and then about 3 seconds to forget that, because his presence here was just... amazing. Of course, he ended up killing his family too...

Hi. Sorry to have been so long answering this comment that you've probably forgotten you made it.

Peter Capaldi was just superb. I can't believe that RTD actually hesitated before casting him.

the bastard doesn't deserve forgiveness now, and at least the story seems to recognize that

Yes, I thought so.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

TW Children of Earth: Day Five

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject