shapinglight | Another writing post

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Another writing post

Further to my last writing post, about Ao3, I can see I need to work on my fic summaries. Also, it seems that if I wanted the stories I was posting on the site to get mentioned on, say,

su_herald, I should have been putting today's (or whichever day it was's) date on them, as

killerweasel said. Is that right?

Anyway, not what this post is about. No, this post is about trying to write stuff (in fanfic, I mean, as I've never written anything else) you don't actually believe, and whether the results are ever convincing, and also about unintentionally writing stuff you never meant to. More behind cut, with spoilers for some of my own stories, should anyone care about those.

I know this is probably going to sound a bit ridiculous, but I don't really think of myself as a Spuffy 'shipper. Obviously, I am one, as opposed to being any other sort of 'shipper, when it comes to Buffy and canon het relationships, because I find her relationship with Spike more interesting than her relationships with Angel or Riley. But I've never managed to convince myself that she meant what she said to Spike in the flaming hands scene in Chosen. I didn't believe it at the time, and now, after however many years it is of Joss-endorsed very bad comics, I believe it even less.

That doesn't of itself matter. After all, there are still many years of the relationship (however you define that word) to write about, and okay a lot of it is very dark, but I did come into reading fanfic through the dark slashfic route, so I can deal (or mostly. Depends who is writing. You can usually tell if the writer hates either character, or hates the 'ship. If they do, I'm not interested.) I've also written some pretty dark Spuffy myself (dark enough to end up on my evil twin's LJ).

On the other hand, there have been times when I've had a great idea for a fic, but of necessity (needs of the plot, see?) it involved Buffy meaning what she said in Chosen. A prime example of this, for those familiar with my fics, is Heroes in Hell. Or at least, I thought it was a necessity at the time I wrote it. Looking back, I think it was just as likely, had Buffy known Spike was stuck in hell, she would have gone to rescue him anyway (she did in season 7, after all), without having to be romantically in love with him. But at the time, I didn't see that, so I included her having meant what she said in the story.

I don't know if it's convincing, though. Someone else would have to tell me.

And of course it isn't the only time I've written something I didn't believe. I don't believe for a minute, for instance, that Buffy would have done what I had her do in my Spuffy dark fic. Any more than I believe that Spike and Giles would ever have a sexual relationship, or that Spike and Wesley would (jury's still out on Spike and Angel, seeing as it was canon 'that one time'). But I'd like to think that while people were reading the story, they could believe it, even if afterwards, they thought, "Nah! Just...nah!"

Likewise, sometimes things you mean to write don't come across like you meant. Recently, I wrote a short piece set in season 6 for a

sb_fag_ends prompt. It was this, if anyone's interested. It's rated PG13/R. Re-reading it, I think I make it look too much like Buffy is at fault, when I meant to make Spike very gittish, and her running a little scared of that, and everything bitter and difficult - a car crash waiting to happen, in fact.

But again, I don't know. Maybe I just made Buffy look like a user. Again, someone would have to tell me.

Anyway, just some brief thoughts.

ETA: Clearly, this is something that only applies to fanfic, when the source material is not under the writer's control.

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Well, for what it's worth I feel exactly the same way you do.

I'm not a hard core shipper of anybody. I've written 2 Spander fics and never in my life would I believe for real that Xander and Spike would hook up. I also love a good Spuffy fic eventhough I actually believe that were she to chose she would chose Angel anytime.

I cannot deal very well with character bashing of any kind. What is so great about this universe is the fact that all BtVS and Angel characters are believable, meaning that sometimes they are narrowminded, evil, angelic, kind, good or flat out stupid. But none of them are only just the one and as a consequence, I can't accept bashing for the sake of bashing.

For me, if the writer is good and tells the fic in a believable manner, then I am happy. It all depends on the writers talent. I have read Spiley, Spred, Spangel, Spuffy, Spander and if the story is good then I can buy anything and be happy. I have not read Bangel without Spike involved somehow. But that is purely because I am completely obssed with Spike.

I've written 2 Spander fics and never in my life would I believe for real that Xander and Spike would hook up.

Hmm, after reading

rahirah's comment below, I think I phrased what I was saying really badly. I've made it sound like I deliberately set out to lie to my readers, when it wasn't so much that, as believing it myself while I was writing it so that my readers would believe it too. This is certainly true with the slash fics. When I wrote them, I managed to persuade myself quite easily that Spike and Giles, or Spike and Wesley, could have a sexual relationship in the circumstances I'd put them in, even if as things stood in canon they never would.

Actually, though, this doesn't apply to Heroes in Hell, because although Buffy in the story means it when she tells Spike she loves him and meant what she said in Chosen, a little voice in my head was probably telling me, that was all nonsense even while I was writing.

I cannot deal very well with character bashing of any kind. What is so great about this universe is the fact that all BtVS and Angel characters are believable, meaning that sometimes they are narrowminded, evil, angelic, kind, good or flat out stupid. But none of them are only just the one and as a consequence, I can't accept bashing for the sake of bashing.

I would say I agree, but I know there's a fine line between bashing and writing the character very dark indeed. I've written very dark Angel, very dark Giles and very dark Wesley. I meant them more as extrapolations of the characters that could occur in certain very specific circumstances, but people whose favourite characters those were might well characterise what I did with them as bashing. I don't know.

Convincing a reader that a character is dark, has a mean streak or is completely evil is not bashing the character. It's simply playing with the many facets of said character. Good writers such as yourself can do that and I love the ride.

Yes, but would you feel the same if I did that to Spike?

'Course, I have written him as flat-out evil. You can't not, unless you only write him post-soul.

I think I would feel the same if you did that to Spike because you, given who you are as a writer would give some kind of plausible reason that would work.

That's the only requirement (which is damn difficult to pull off, of course).

I have read fics where Spike is generally just a bloodsucking raping bastard and I do confess, I don't care much for them. Thing is - given how he was portrayed on the show pre-soul, I don't think that he would act like a crazy serial killer all the time. There was always love and longing and a bit of insecurity behind the facade and an appreciation of the world in general. Less demon, more human.

I have read fics where Spike is generally just a bloodsucking raping bastard and I do confess, I don't care much for them

Like I said, you can usually tell when someone is approaching the character from a position of hate.

I actually think Buffy did mean her ILY in the minute that she said it. (If she didn't mean it, you lose all the dramatic irony of the scene.) But I think that, had Spike survived, she would have panicked and backpedaled and does-it-have-to-mean-anythinginged like crazy, because while I can buy that Spike is important to her emotionally, I don't think she has any idea how to have a reciprocal relationship with him, and isn't willing or able to take the emotional risks that any reciprocal relationship requires. At least, not with Spike.

But that's just my most likely scenario. There is room in even comics canon for an interpretation of "She really meant it, she tore the place apart looking for Spike when she found out he was alive, then she got hurt and angry because he never called and wanted to rub his nose in what he'd lost when he did show up."

For myself, I need to believe that a character could do something in order to really get into writing about it. The piece of feedback I got that's bothered me the most over the years was someone saying that of course I couldn't really believe in what I was writing; I had to be deliberately mischaracterizing Buffy in order to get the result I wanted. I felt as if they were accusing me of being dishonest.

But I can believe in several mutually contradictory outcomes for a character. I think Buffy could have fallen for Spike and had a real relationship with him. She didn't, and it's less and less likely that she ever will. But it wasn't impossible. There's huge difference to me between "Did this happen in canon?" "Is it likely this will happen in canon?" and "Could this have happened, and if so, how?" Fanfic, to me, is all about the third question. The first two are meta. *g* So I could say that in my opinion Giles and Spike never had a relationship in canon, are not ever likely to have a relationship, but could they, under some set of circumstances? Sure.

I'm always a little wary of saying that a character would never do X, because if you'd asked me at the end of S5 whether Buffy would ever use someone for sex, I would have said no way, no how. After all, she had that experience with both Angelus and Parker - she knows how it makes someone feel. She can be self-centered sometimes, but she's not cruel! Obviously, I was proved wrong. So it really is all in the buildup.

That said, sometimes the amount of buildup required to get a character to a place where they would do X is such that it changes the character in a major way. If that change happens to be in a direction the reader doesn't like, then even if the change is believable, you risk losing them. It's like, OK, I believe that under these circumstances Giles would take a vow of silence and retire to Wapping to cultivate a newt farm, but that's really not something I want to read about Giles doing. So you're damned (or blessed) whether you do or don't; if the final goal is something the reader likes, then they'll be more likely to forgive bobbles in characterization in order to get there, but if it's something they don't, then even if your buildup is perfect they may chuck the story anyway.

I actually think Buffy did mean her ILY in the minute that she said it. (If she didn't mean it, you lose all the dramatic irony of the scene.)

I'm not sure I quite agree with that. Though I do remember Jane E saying something along the lines of her and Marti asking Joss if Buffy loved Spike and him saying, "She'd have to, wouldn't she?", which would suggest that in that moment, Joss meant her to think that she did. Dunno.

Though there have been times (induced by the comics) when the extremist Bangels' very poisonous interpretation of that scene has seemed almost credible to me, for the most part I come down on, Buffy had strong feelings for Spike, felt very proud of him, but never meant ILY in a romantic sense for even a moment. But then it shades over into her not quite knowing what she did mean even at the time.

There is room in even comics canon for an interpretation of "She really meant it, she tore the place apart looking for Spike when she found out he was alive, then she got hurt and angry because he never called and wanted to rub his nose in what he'd lost when he did show up."

I know, but :yawn: basically. That one never had legs for me. Though I do think he was a coward not to call her at all.

But anyway, 'shipping stuff apart, after reading your comment, I see that I've phrased parts of my post very badly. Of course, when I was writing those Spike/Giles, Spike/Wesley fics, I believed they could have that relationship in the circumstances I put them in (which were usually rather extreme), even if canon as it stood precluded such a thing. So, if I'd received a piece of feedback like the one you mention, I would have been upset too.

That said, sometimes the amount of buildup required to get a character to a place where they would do X is such that it changes the character in a major way. If that change happens to be in a direction the reader doesn't like, then even if the change is believable, you risk losing them.

Yep. Happened to me many times.

Edited 2013-08-07 15:52 (UTC)

Eh, well, I'm just going by the scene itself, not what the writers said about the scene. It seems to me that if Buffy doesn't love him, then you just have one level going there, of pity on her part, and him recognizing the pity and rejecting it. If she does love him (or at least believes she does) then you've got the irony of her finally saying it, and him not believing her when he's been trying to get her to say just that for so long. Plus the irony of him not believing her feelings are real for a change. And the whole Cassandra allusion falls apart if Buffy isn't telling the truth - the Cassandra of myth was cursed to always prophesy the truth and never be believed, so having the Buffyverse Cassandra's prophecy that "Someday she'll tell you" come true, but Spike not believe it, would fit. It's a richer and more layered scene if she does love him, and he doesn't believe it.

But I don't think Buffy would have had the courage to say it if Spike hadn't been dying, and I don't think she'd have had the courage to follow through had he survived, so I don't think Buffy loving him romantically in that moment actually mattered, if that makes any sense. Which is why I see it as a tragic rather than romantic scene; it's the culmination of their long history of miscommunication.

Spike was definitely a coward not to call her, regardless. I suspect he was afraid that if he contacted her, he'd fall right back into tagging forlornly behind her hoping for crumbs that he'd never get, and the comics seems to have borne that fear out. Still, he should have manned up and given her a phone call.

This storyline's made them both into cowards, now that I think of it. :/ At least Spike got to put his cards on the table one last time in S9.

Edited 2013-08-07 19:50 (UTC)

Which is why I see it as a tragic rather than romantic scene; it's the culmination of their long history of miscommunication.

Yeah, this is probably how Joss sees it too. It, for a fact, is how Scott Allie sees it, because he said so, in one of those Slayalive Q&As ("Their lives don't fit"), and I'm willing to believe he got that from Joss. Doubt it's a trope they'll ever break out of, if only because it means the story will never have to revisit the AR in any meaningful way. Which fine, I guess, if they had anything else for Spike to do, but they don't seem to.

Bloody comics! They get in everywhere.

And the whole Cassandra allusion falls apart if Buffy isn't telling the truth - the Cassandra of myth was cursed to always prophesy the truth and never be believed, so having the Buffyverse Cassandra's prophecy that "Someday she'll tell you" come true, but Spike not believe it, would fit. It's a richer and more layered scene if she does love him, and he doesn't believe it.

This is true, but I always thought there was a double irony going on there. "Some day she'll tell you," is very ambiguous. It doesn't necessarily mean that what she'll tell you will be true.

I liked it and for me Spike was asking to be snubbed - yes, a git.

Oh good. Thank you.

Reading the comments, I had a thought about bashing vs. having a character go dark. Obviously, the later is perfectly acceptable, and not limited to fanfic. See: Dark!Willow, Angelus, etc. I know that for me, it becomes bashing when one of the characters in the story changes their behavior to make another look worse. In "Spike is wonderful, the Scoobies are mean fic", this means having Buffy decide that, well, Spike is wonderful and the Scoobies are mean. Or, in "Buffy is horrible and Spike is a poor woobie fic", you might have Tara suddenly deciding that Buffy is horrible and Spike is a poor woobie. I mean, I'm perfectly fine with characters making some discovery or other than gives them a slice of new insight, but not for them to change their viewpoint wholesale.

Example: "Finders Keepers". You know what I'm talking about. In that one, both Angel and Buffy discover new shades of darkness in the other, but it doesn't mean an about-face in their opinion of the other. It's just another shading to a person they've known and loved for some time. So it's believable. There's no: omighod! I've been wrong all along! Deal breaker!

Anyway, more to your original point, I think good writers can sell all sorts of things they don't really believe. Part of being a storyteller is the ability to imagine plausible possibilities in all sorts of directions. I'm most satisfied with stories of my own where I've taken the side of characters I'm not that fond of, and really managed to convey where they are coming from in a given set of circumstances. I'm less happy with things tied up in a bow, although I go there far too often.

I consider myself a multi-shipper (Spike edition), but I have an interpretation of canon that has Buffy being attracted to Spike early on, and loving him from Intervention onward. That makes my Buffy pretty dark, because she not only loves someone who can be a real asshole, but she treats someone she loves in terrible ways. I identify with Buffy a lot, but don't buy that love is some sort of perfect cure-all, or makes people behave better. Spike's right: You always hurt the one you love.

I certainly think that Spike came across as a huge jerk in the story to which you linked. That doesn't mean he's wrong in what he says. And Buffy doesn't seem "at fault" to me. She's entitled to her perspective and her taste, limited as they are by her youth and surroundings. And, most important to me, she's fighting furiously against opening her mind and heart, to hold on to her worldview as it crumbles all around her. Of course she would cling to it most tightly then. It's human nature, as it's always been.

In "Spike is wonderful, the Scoobies are mean fic", this means having Buffy decide that, well, Spike is wonderful and the Scoobies are mean. Or, in "Buffy is horrible and Spike is a poor woobie fic", you might have Tara suddenly deciding that Buffy is horrible and Spike is a poor woobie. I mean, I'm perfectly fine with characters making some discovery or other than gives them a slice of new insight, but not for them to change their viewpoint wholesale.

You know, I think I must have lived a very sheltered fandom life. I don't think I've ever come across examples of either of these kinds of fic. I'm always bewildered when people start inveighing against them. Where are they all (so I can avoid the place)?

Example: "Finders Keepers". You know what I'm talking about. In that one, both Angel and Buffy discover new shades of darkness in the other, but it doesn't mean an about-face in their opinion of the other. It's just another shading to a person they've known and loved for some time. So it's believable. There's no: omighod! I've been wrong all along! Deal breaker!

Oh, thank you! I sometimes think I should do a less graphic version of that story. I think it would probably be a lot more interesting without the sex.

Part of being a storyteller is the ability to imagine plausible possibilities in all sorts of directions. I'm most satisfied with stories of my own where I've taken the side of characters I'm not that fond of, and really managed to convey where they are coming from in a given set of circumstances.

I agree it's satisfying to do that. It also helps you learn to like, or at least not to dislike, characters/'ships you don't much care for and see the story as a whole, the way Joss must. Fanfic is a biased kind of an enterprise as a rule, no matter which side you're coming from.

Also, thank you for your insightful comments on that ficlet. I'm glad Spike was sufficiently jerklike, if not entirely unsympathetic, I hope. That's his canon season 6 persona really (IMO), and what I was trying to go for.

I sometimes think I should do a less graphic version of that story. I think it would probably be a lot more interesting without the sex.

Personally, I'm very interested in the sex in that story, something that isn't true of a lot of stories with sex in 'em. So, don't go changin' to try and please me.

Wow! Really?

I kind of like the last one, where we get Spike's POV, and he's just having a whale of a time knowing how uncomfortable the whole thing must make Angel.

I've run into very few of that kind of fic on LJ. I have seen a pretty fair number of them on archives like Spuffy Realm, so they definitely exist, but I've seen them for almost every other character as well. There are vast quantities of poor-Buffy, poor-Willow and poor-Xander fics, and poor-Giles and poor-Anya are not unknown. I suspect I haven't seen as many poor-Angel fics simply because canon supplies all the poor-Angel one could wish for.

I've run into very few of that kind of fic on LJ.

This would be why I don't see them. I very rarely venture outside LJ looking for fic.

but I've seen them for almost every other character as well. There are vast quantities of poor-Buffy, poor-Willow and poor-Xander fics, and poor-Giles and poor-Anya are not unknown.

Weirdly, no one ever mentions those.

Though of course that could be because my flist biases towards Spuffy, so any fics of that kind they will have seen will tend to be Spuffy ones.

You know, I think I must have lived a very sheltered fandom life. I don't think I've ever come across examples of either of these kinds of fic. I'm always bewildered when people start inveighing against them. Where are they all (so I can avoid the place)?
You are the lucky one. Lots of that stuff on the pairing-specific archieves, and not only there. I recall finding "Best Bashing" category on Just Rewards, and that was quite a shock. Well - yes, bashing fics exist... but THERE ARE REWARDS FOR THEM?! *fainting*

I hadn't realised there was a category for bashing fics either.

Weird.

I don't think you need worry about them being rewarded, though. As far as I know, Just Rewards is just the title of the archive. It's not an award site.

I actually think it matters less what the writer believes as what the reader does. For one thing, just about every story has something appear that the writer didn't intend (and that includes canon) or at least didn't consciously intend. But given how I've seen both canon and particular fanworks interpreted in completely different ways, I think a writer will often guess incorrectly at what the audience will see.

Since I'm not writing, I can say that I approach stories several ways: (1) I believe in the ship and believe there's canonical evidence for it, (2) I believe the ship could be workable but don't believe it was anything canon intended, (3) I don't believe in the ship but figure the writer can still provide a good story and might make me buy it, and (4) I don't believe in the ship and don't believe any story can make me buy it.

For example, with Sherlock I think it's rather unfortunate that so many people are focused on getting them together that no one approaches the ship in a way that I think canon's actually leading us to -- a relationship that could have been but it's impossible for these two people to make it work because of who they are, fundamentally. And that this doesn't necessarily need to be tragic and sad but more perplexed and frustrating. I've read some well written Sherlock but it falls into camp #3 to me. I suspend my disbelief for the sake of the story but I'm never convinced.

If anything, I find it unfortunate that so much fanfic feels forced into a particular type of storyline instead of letting the characters act out relationships that are a more likely outcome and would lead to a greater diversity of stories.

Yes, all very good points.

My post actually started with a long paragraph about fanfic readers, but I deleted it, because I thought it was too waffly. It is very true that readers bring their own wants, needs and interpretations to stories, and you can't make them see it a way that they don't see it.

I also will read stories in your category three (all Spander for me is in that category), but it has to be a very good story and a very good writer. I'm sure lots of my stories must be category threes for people. I hope not too many of them are category fours.

I also agree with your last paragraph. I do like to write about relationships, but in fact, most of all I like to write about relationships that are part of a much bigger story, the plottier the better. And if the plot requires the relationship to be not so happy, then that's how it should be.

I think that for me most ships tend to fall into groups 3 and 4 but there's a difference in how believable the ship is vs. how much I'd want to read it. Using my previous example, I've read some Sherlock stories shipping Sherlock/John but I just can't buy them as some normally happy couple.

If I really believe in the ship though, I'm much less likely to want to read a story that doesn't take a more traditional route and ends unhappily (I have, but it's not going to make up the bulk of my reading). But it also depends on the ship. For example, in SPN there is a small amount of John/Dean written and I think it's not that hard to imagine canon where Dean's early parentification and hero worship went hand in hand with molestation (putting it in Category #2). However, I'm not going to want to read it -- whether because it's made to seem like some sort of happy thing or because it's realistic and it's a really horrible thing because of the kind of ship it is.

And I would contrast that with John/Sam which seems to me completely unlikely in anything but a grim AU (and which I, again, wouldn't want to read no matter how brilliantly done).

That's interesting (except for LJ logging you out).

If I really believe in the ship though, I'm much less likely to want to read a story that doesn't take a more traditional route and ends unhappily (I have, but it's not going to make up the bulk of my reading).

I'm sure this is true of most people, though of course different people have different reasons for reading fanfic.

Incest fics seem to be very prevalent in the SPN fandom.

Weird, I got logged out somehow but I was still able to comment...

I think they sound like they did in canon - so if you're someone who thinks Buffy is unreasonable or too hard on Spike, then you's still think that after reading it; if you think Spike was a jerk, you'd still think that, too! Personally, I think Spike was a bit of a jerk up until Intervention, and after that, Buffy was unreasonable. So here, she's unreasonable.

I enjoyed it though!

Thank you. :)

I think Spike was still pretty jerklike at times after Intervention, but that better side of him was there too.

Not always, but there.

No, you don't. But thanks for saying it was one of those "perfect hit" moments for me. Final statement in season 7 message with all its homage to strong women, and Spike, as usual, knowing Buffy better than she knows herself. Buffy's grown up, she's not a romantic heroine, she is a hero. She could never love Spike (or anyone else) passionately and completely, like Spike does. She is not all-about-love girl. If she would, well... she would be reduced back to that lost schoolgirl muttering "was it me? was I not good?"

I'm not a spuffy fan either, and long noticed that my "cognitive shipping bias" could work wonders. For instance, I read "Heroes in Hell" about half a year ago, and I remember it as Buffy&Spike story rather than Spuffy. No, that was not your fault - I'm re-reading it now, and it’s definitely Spuffy, of very passionate and romantic kind. That's just - if reader wants to ignore (or see) something, he will find a way to do it. Well, if the story is worth it, of course.
I’d even say – fanfic is worth it, if author inserted there enough pegs, so it could be interpreted to some extent. And hopefully that extent would be comfortable for both the author and the reader)

As to "How Come You Do Me Like You Do?" - don't see any buffy-blaming there. Just a perfect grab of S6 canon, both of them trying to reach their own kind of intimacy, failing, and dragging each other down instead.

Thank you very much. Glad to know that little story worked for you.

Your assessment of Buffy as a hero rather than a romantic heroine is mine too. I liked that role reversal, which put Spike in the damsel role (some of the time, not all the time, people can take it too far, I know), and enjoyed writing that version of the relationship in fanfic.

I'm finding it harder to see it these days, though. Which is down to the Buffy comics. They've done a lot of damage (and I don't just mean to Spuffy, I mean to the characters as individuals, to the message of the show, to pretty much everything).

Myself, I go back and forth on whether or not Buffy meant what she said - and I think Buffy probably would, too. I can believe stories that frame it either way, but I am most ready to believe that even Buffy wasn't really sure if/how much she meant it.

Also? I think you are quite convincing when you write Buffy meaning what she said to Spike.

I can believe stories that frame it either way, but I am most ready to believe that even Buffy wasn't really sure if/how much she meant it.

Yeah, I'd agree with that assessment. She certainly meant something.

Also? I think you are quite convincing when you write Buffy meaning what she said to Spike.

Oh, thank you! I'm glad it worked for you.

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Another writing post

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