shapinglight | Some Scattershot BtVS thoughts

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Some Scattershot BtVS thoughts

I've been meaning to make this post for a while. Can't remember how many times I've written it in my head. I just haven't managed to find the will to write it all down properly.

I'm also not sure whether I should flock this post or not. It probably doesn't matter. We'll see.

As you know, I've been rewatching BtVS in its entirety. I'm now near the end of season 5. I meant to post as I was going along, but then the official rewatch started on

fantas_magoria so I wasn't sure I should. But here are a few muddled thoughts which probably don't belong over there anyway.

I'm finding I'm watching far more through Buffy's eyes than I ever have previously. I don't know if this is because I've written her POV quite a bit in fanfic since I last watched the show, or what. Either way, I am very, very impressed with SMG.

Buffy/Angel is far more of a Big Thing in the seasons after Angel leaves than I remembered. The shadow of Angel looms large in season 4, and is still there in 5. I hadn't remembered it as being quite so all-pervasive. Angel really is the benchmark against which all Buffy's other relationships are measured. Not least by Buffy herself, even when she doesn't mean to.

Spike and Dru are a gorgeous couple, but what the show could have done with them if they'd stayed together was very limited, and they'd pretty much done it by the end of season 2.

I feel less sympathetic to Faith in season 3 than I used to. I do still feel sorry for her, especially early on. She obviously comes from a very unstable background and doesn't have any of Buffy's advantages in life. By the time she arrives in Sunnydale, she doesn't even have a Watcher. (Speaking of which, has anyone ever written fic about Faith and her first Watcher? All we know is that the Watcher was female and that Kakistos killed her, but I bet there's fic anyway). Despite that, my sympathy for her plummets when she shops Buffy to Giles as the killer of the deputy mayor (bitch!), and I no longer think that Buffy didn't do enough to help her. Buffy does plenty. She gives Faith one chance after another. Giles should probably have done more (got Faith away from that horrible apartment, for instance), but then again, Faith is so unstable she might not have let him.

Season 4 is really great. I love it, and I love Riley. He's so sweet. He's so nice. He really was Buffy's best chance at normality. I'm just so annoyed with him for being such a bloody idiot. And at such a terrible time.

Season 5 is probably the most coherently plotted season of the show. It's also the most emotionally demanding of the viewer. Yes, season 2 has some harrowing moments, but nothing - not even sending Angel to hell- can really beat Buffy losing her mother. The fact that it's down to mundane illness rather than something supernatural gives it even more power.

Finally, some stuff about Spike. As of where I've got to in season 5 (Forever), he is only just beginning to show some glimmers of the character I came to love. Okay, he's a good villain in season 2 and he's funny in season 4 and early season 5, but it's only after he falls in love with Buffy that there's the slightest inkling he might still harbour some small trace of humanity deep within him that his particular circumstances (being chipped) will finally bring out (in both good ways and bad ways). You see it first in the porch scene at the end of FFL and then not again until Forever. For most of the season, though, he's floundering, trying totally ineptly, to make himself into someone that Buffy could love, and having no clue that when he tries to be helpful he usually makes things worse. He is developing empathy though, even if who he feels it for is pretty selective.

In other words, he's very, very much a work in progress.

Which brings me to my final point. It's my opinion that, as of the end of the shows (BtVS and AtS, that is), Spike is the only major character whose storyline and potential for character development haven't gone arm in arm (if I can put it that way). As we all know, I think, Joss never originally intended to bring Spike back from the dead full-time after Chosen, but the WB insisted on JM being a series regular if AtS was to be renewed (and I've never before wondered if that rankled with the other cast members. Surely it must have), and so we got Spike in AtS season 5. And he was a very different Spike to the one in BtVS. Basically, he was meant to be a foil for Angel so he would be all the things Angel, as a vampire with a soul, was not - rude, unrepentant, abrasive.

He's only nice to Fred, and by the end of the season is barely beginning to learn how to play nice with other people.

Which is sort of my point. By the time NFA comes around, Spike has only had his soul for a year. Maybe if he'd not died in the alley along with Angel, Gunn and Illyria (which, if you ignore the comics, is probably what happened) he might have changed for the better down the road (the way he has in Buffy season 10). After all, Angel didn't exactly become a paragon of virtue the minute he got his soul, did he?

And Spike does have good instincts. Yes, he says rude and obnoxious stuff all the time in AtS season 5, but he always does the right thing.

So, though of course there's plenty you could say about what all the characters did next, I've ended up feeling that Spike in the show was sort of cheated (which I know will make the subset of fans who think he took over the show and ruined it roll their eyes, but there it is). Either he should have stayed dead after Chosen, or he should have been allowed to go on past NFA, live and learn, and perhaps (one day) become a better person. As it is, I feel like all the characters in both shows got a proper send off (as it were, and I know some won't agree with me) with completed character arcs (which is not to say there's not more to be said about them, just that they finished at a place where it was okay to finish emotionally) but Spike, because he came back, got sort of awkwardly stuck in the middle, neither fish nor fowl.

YMMV, obviously. I know many fans of other characters also feel their favourites were short-changed. And I'm not talking about story. Spike got plenty of that. I'm talking about emotional...er, progress.

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Your thoughts on S3/Faith are what my thoughts have always been. I've long wondered if that's why I was so down on it as a whole. I just never cared all that much for Faith or sympathized with her very much. Revelations really kinda put me off her. She made a dumb decision to side with Post and then kinda took it out on everyone else, acting like they betrayed her.

Also everyone in S3 is so stagnant and on-hold to me. Buffy's arc pretty much stops after Anne. I know they keep with the 'could've been Faith' stuff but it really doesn't work. In the end, she and Angel break up (about 5 times) and that's it. Plot stuff happens, but nothing by way of interesting characterization that you see in 2, 4-7.

And yeah, Spike (and everyone who crosses over to Angel and vice-versa) suffers from crossover-itis. They're meant to fill in a hole in the story, previous characterization/storyline bedamned. IIRC, Spike wasn't originally meant to be a regular, though. Perhaps that's why they never originally gave him much other than to juxtapose Angel and make him uncomfortable.

I just never cared all that much for Faith or sympathized with her very much. Revelations really kinda put me off her. She made a dumb decision to side with Post and then kinda took it out on everyone else, acting like they betrayed her.

Well, to be fair, she doesn't really go off the rails until after she's killed the deputy mayor. Prior to that she's wild, certainly, and neither Wesley (especially not Wesley) nor Giles can do anything with her, even though she likes Giles well enough. Ultimately, Angel was a perfect Watcher for her, if you can put it that way, because he was the only one who really understood her self-loathing. But yeah, there were times during my rewatch of season 3 when I really, really disliked her.

And I agree about the season as a whole. The standalones are great, the Mayor is a terrific villain, but somehow or other the arc doesn't quite work. It feels like there's a lot of meandering round the houses to get to the blowing up the school point. And the Buffy/Angel on/off thing is a bit of a drag. I loved Anne, though. I think it might be my favourite episode of the entire season.

And yeah, Spike (and everyone who crosses over to Angel and vice-versa) suffers from crossover-itis.

Oh, I agree it happens to everyone who crosses over, but unfortunately for Spike, he crossed over at just the wrong time. Cordy and Wesley had time to develope way, way beyond what they were like in the early seasons of BtVS. Spike (it feels to me anyway) was only just starting out on his new life as a souled vampire.

she doesn't really go off the rails until after she's killed the deputy mayor.

Oh, I know. It's just that's the episode where I was jarred away from the character. Fandom hasn't helped my opinion since, but that's another issue.

the Mayor is a terrific villain

I thought he was a great character, but kind of a sucky villain. He wants to become a big snake? Just, why? After what happened with the Judge in S2, it didn't work for me. Maybe in the Middle Ages, but when you have C4 and fighter jets, becoming a big snake is a bit of a knife in a gunfight.

A friend of mine once called S3 "S1 with higher production values". And I can't disagree.

but unfortunately for Spike, he crossed over at just the wrong time.

Also they didn't really want or plan for him, IMO. Spike to AtS S5 was kinda like Angel in S1 of Buffy.

ed S3 "S1 with higher production values" LOL I love that.

I thought he was a great character, but kind of a sucky villain

I think that's probably more what I meant, actually. As a villain he takes his own sweet time getting around to being really villainous. As for the big snake thing, I suppose we're meant to assume that once he'd finished chowing down on the graduating class he'd have tried to take over the world, or something. I dunno.

A friend of mine once called S3 "S1 with higher production values". And I can't disagree.

Ye-ah, I'd have to agree with that. Also with what you say about Spike's role in AtS season 5. He does have some good scenes in the season that I'd have been sorry to miss, but overall you do often wonder what is the point of him being there.

Also they didn't really want or plan for him, IMO. Spike to AtS S5 was kinda like Angel in S1 of Buffy.

Actually, further to this I've remembered that JM was supposed to go off and do a movie so was going to be written out for a bit mid-season (I think that's right), but then he didn't go, so I suppose they then had to think what they were going to do with him.

Which, if it really was the middle part of the season he was meant to be absent, makes you wonder why several of the episodes in the middle (the ones where Spike was working with Lindsey) turned out to be some of the best ones for the character all season. Or maybe he was meant to be absent somewhat earlier than that, hence the run of Spike the funny ghost cameos in the early part of the season. Not sure.

I don't know. Even if he didn't go for the movie, that wouldn't have compelled them to insert him into a storyline. They could have just continued on with their plans and let JM have a vacation.

Who really knows, though. I do think they'd have probably shipped him off somewhere had they got Buffy in You're Welcome. It's always been a dream of mine to get hold of that original script.

It's always been a dream of mine to get hold of that original script.

Yes, it would be interesting to see what they planned and how it compared with what we got.

I've always wanted to see the original church scene from Beneath You. I've read the script but it's not the same as seeing it.

All I know is, it's very expensive to re-shoot a scene so Joss must have thought the original was absolutely dire, but for what reasons, I wonder? Did he think it too melodramatic, that it made Spike too sympathetic, not sympathetic enough? Who knows?

Well, I daresay someone said something about it somewhere but I don't remember. I don't think there's an episode commentary for Beneath You. All I remember is JM saying Joss came to him and said, "Your scene sucks," and Joss rewrote it and then they re-shot it.

It exists. My friend, J, had an vhs of the avid output. She said it was really poorly lit and none of the blocking really worked. Like the director tried to make it too scary.

I actually kinda prefer the original, at least in written form.

She said it was really poorly lit and none of the blocking really worked. Like the director tried to make it too scary.

Too scary? Heh! I think that's the last thing that would have occurred to me as a reason to change it. But yeah, if it looked terrible I can see why they would change it. Not so clear why Joss would totally re-write it.

Maybe he was sort of filming it in his head and the way he pictured it and where the beats came just didn't match with Petrie's script, so he changed it

Spike's a lot more antagonistic in the original, and there are a lot of cuts queued in the script which does suggest a thriller sort of atmosphere. Remember, a director really doesn't have access to what happens later as much as Joss would. He might have thought they were going to make Spike a baddie at that point. When I read it, I can definitely see why someone would want to add a jump-scare here or there since so many quick cuts are called for.

As for why Joss rewrote it, the story goes SMG went to him and asked him to change it as Buffy was too passive. This is widely accepted, perhaps even confirmed by someone, I believe, as true.

Thing is, I don't think Buffy is any less passive in Joss's version.

As for why Joss rewrote it, the story goes SMG went to him and asked him to change it as Buffy was too passive. This is widely accepted, perhaps even confirmed by someone, I believe, as true.

Thing is, I don't think Buffy is any less passive in Joss's version.

Depends what you mean by passive, I suppose. Doesn't she throw Spike across the church at some point? It's a while since I've seen it.

I got hopelessly behind in the Buffy rewatch and have been re-watching AtS season 5 instead. I watched Shells today. Cried my eyes out two times, yesterday due to watching A Hole in the World and You're Welcome. :(

I agree with you - I felt and feel that Spike is the only character left floundering when all is said and done and the two TV series are over.

And I suppose this is why so much amazing fanfiction has been written about this particular character (Besides the obvious fact that lots of people lusted after him/JM, but usually, these people didn't manage to write more than porn as a, very, general rule.

Spike was horribly cheated in AtS and I blame both the directors and JM for not staying true to the Spike we left in Chosen. Whenever I got a glimpse of whom he was going to become, I almost forgave them. And those glimpses are also what inspires me to this day personally both when writing but certainly also when reading about his further journey.

I got hopelessly behind in the Buffy rewatch.

That's a shame. :(

Mind you, the fact that I'm forging ahead so far is probably a sign that I currently have nothing better to do. ;)

Not that I'm not enjoying it. I am. It's a great show. I wept buckets while watching so many of the episodes in season 5.

I felt and feel that Spike is the only character left floundering when all is said and done and the two TV series are over.

Yeah, as I said to

infinitewhale above, he crossed over at just the wrong time, and as a result his character development is sort of...stunted in official terms. I never thought I'd be glad for anything in the Buffy comics, but I admit I'm quite liking the way Spike's character is being developed at the moment. It's not the only way he could have gone (if you judge him by AtS season 5), he could have just become a complete git. But I think his development in the comics is also a viable option.

I can't blame JM for what happened to Spike in AtS season 5. He couldn't really do anything except what he was asked to do. And there are bits and pieces of his story in AtS that I like very much. But there's far too much Stupid Younger Brother Spike for my liking.

Having said which, it was Angel's show. That's just how it goes, I suppose. Maybe I should be glad that AtS got cancelled. Who knows? If there'd been a season 6 Spike might have got even worse.

All the chars who crossed over from Buffy to Angel were changed hugely by the move. Oddly enough Spike sort of regressed, because its as if he went back to the char we saw before on Angel, way back in AtS 1, with most of what happened over on BTVS inbetween somehow irrelevant. If he had had more seasons he presumably would have settled down on Angel and found a new personality, but I think you are right and he was short changed and cut off in an unfinished state.

The other one who was badly short changed was Illyria. I wish we had been allowed to see her take her arc much, much further. Okay, so it was yet another redemption story, but then that was the whole point of AtS - they were all redemption stories. Either sucessful in the case of the AI gang or failures in teh case of the W&H lawyers - but always redemption.

Are you rewatching Angel as well, or just Buffy?

All the chars who crossed over from Buffy to Angel were changed hugely by the move. Oddly enough Spike sort of regressed, because its as if he went back to the char we saw before on Angel, way back in AtS 1, with most of what happened over on BTVS inbetween somehow irrelevant.

Agreed, and also about how everyone who crossed over changed. Thing is, though, Angel, Cordy and Wesley had years to develop. Spike only had one, and after such a profound change in his character (I mean getting a soul). And they did regress him. There's no doubt. As for finding a new personality if the show hadn't been cancelled, I suspect, judging by what we got, I wouldn't have liked it.

I don't know if I agree Illyria was short-changed, but that may just be bitterness about what happened to Fred.

Are you rewatching Angel as well, or just Buffy?

Well, I'm watching BtVS on Neflix and AtS isn't available on it. My AtS DVDs are all in storage, under piles and piles of crap. :(

In other words, no.

Just dropping by for a fast complement - I always have loved your fanfic, analysis and lj in general. So there you go!

xoEP

Hey there. How are you? I do hope your leg is better?

Season 4 is really great. I love it, and I love Riley. He's so sweet. He's so nice. He really was Buffy's best chance at normality. I'm just so annoyed with him for being such a bloody idiot. And at such a terrible time.

I remember thinking that at the time - I'm so glad someone agrees with me!

Edited 2015-03-22 22:14 (UTC)

I've always thought that, but it struck me even more forcefully this time.

I am interested to see how my views change (or not) with this rewatch. I am not the least bit shippy about anyone these days. So I wonder I wonder how it might be not seeing it through that lens.

As far as Spike having a glimmer of humanity, I think you could clearly see it when he was with Drusilla. I actually thought they could have done more with his character in season seven. But I suppose he already had enough screen time as it was. And when he went on to Angel... well they just made him into a buffoon sort of.

I would have loved to have seen Riley's character evolve. I have always been pretty steadfast in my opinion that he deserved more empathy then he got from most.

One thing I can completely agree on: SMG's acting is so impressive!

One thing I can completely agree on: SMG's acting is so impressive!

Yeah, she barely misses a beat. I'm into season 6 now. I always used to think that the people who complained her performance suffered and she stopped showing any emotion were wrong, even though it's well known that there were a lot of things in season 6 she didn't enjoy doing.

I'll see what I think this time.

As far as Spike having a glimmer of humanity, I think you could clearly see it when he was with Drusilla.

This is true. The Judge sensed it in them. And of course they're not the only vampires with traces of humanity, or poor old Dalton wouldn't have been burnt by the Judge. But I still think the change in Spike in season 5 (in the porch scene in FFL and then from Forever onwards) is qualitatively different and not something that season 2 Spike would have been capable of feeling. I dunno.

And when he went on to Angel... well they just made him into a buffoon sort of.

Not all the time, but a lot of it, yes. I suppose he might have grown away from that had the show not been cancelled, but they already had a leading man in Angel and a tragic male character in Wesley. There wasn't really any other role going for Spike than comic relief.

I feel a lot of sympathy for almost all the characters, I think. And if fanfic has taught me anything, it's that something more could have been done with everybody. Spike/Dru were marvelous, but some catalyst had to change their relationship if they were going to be regulars. That's just how it is with serial stories. Things have to change to stay interesting.

Season 3 is a problem for me, because of all the wheel-spinning*, although there are so many good episodes that I forgive it for being boring in places. The writers really started to play with the form, too, which is something I enjoy. Doppelgangland & The Zeppo, for instance. However, I really, really dislike "Amends" and think it is the worst episode of BtVS, ever. Minority opinion, I suspect.

*I just had a conversation with one of McDiva's friends who is still in high school about how he can't wait for it to be over so "I can bloom on my own". (Yes, actual words of a teenage boy.) So now I wonder if the "wheel-spinning" is sort of endemic to senior year, just as a general truth. Hmm.

I do like Faith, who I've recently come to think of as an expanded version of Sheila from School Hard. That doesn't mean that I think she makes good choices, though. And I agree that Buffy did as much as she could to help her…although attempting to kill her at the end of the season to save Angel (someone I don't have a lot of sympathy for) is pretty much a low point for Buffy, hero-wise, IMO.

S4 is marvelous. I'm curious how I will see Riley this rewatch. I didn't mind him so much the first time through, though the writing was on the wall from the beginning regarding his romance with Buffy. The second time through, I could see his POV, but it seemed really incompatible with Buffy's, and I resented that. I was pretty mad at his dumb-boyness in "Doomed". I'll have to do a poll when we get to that episode!

Spike/Dru were marvelous, but some catalyst had to change their relationship if they were going to be regulars. That's just how it is with serial stories. Things have to change to stay interesting.

Yes, definitely. I remember when season 5 was airing that JM said some of the writers (Fury was one of them, I think) wanted him to go to AtS and be a villain. I suppose if he'd gone, it would have been after Crush. He'd have gone back to LA with Dru and got back into his old pattern with her. But that wouldn't have been sustainable for a series regular, I don't think.

However, I really, really dislike "Amends" and think it is the worst episode of BtVS, ever. Minority opinion, I suspect.

Well, I don't think it's the worst, but I really don't think it's very good. Also, we never got to the bottom of whether it really was the First Evil that brought Angel back, and if so what on earth its motive was. At least, I don't think we do. Heh! It's a month since I watched it at least and I've already forgotten what happens.

As for Faith, I like her fine. I think ultimately she got a great story. I also agree that Buffy setting out to kill her was very bad and more should have been made of it. But then I think more should have been made of Giles's betrayal of Buffy in Helpless, which I think is the worst betrayal she suffers in the entire history of the show. I watched that episode yelling at the screen, "Don't do it, Giles! Don't do it!" ;)

I was pretty mad at his dumb-boyness in "Doomed". I'll have to do a poll when we get to that episode!

Poor old Riley. Have to say, his rebellion against the government/army/whatever is not very convincing. It's no surprise whatsoever that he goes back to them in the end. And yes, as rebound guy (though I'm pretty sure that's his own view of what he is, not Buffy's) their relationship was never going to work in the long run. Riley's doing pretty much everything he can to wreck it the minute he learns of Angel's existence.

I got quite annoyed when rewatching Intervention yesterday when Buffy tells Giles that she feels like she's getting too hard to love and that's why Riley left. Giles should have told her that was nonsense.

Edited 2015-03-24 17:34 (UTC)

Maybe having been put back in the situation where his sire was around all the time, it was natural for Spike to regress.

Oh, for sure. Maybe if the show hadn't been cancelled that might have changed slightly, who knows? I just struggle to think what other role than comic relief Spike might have filled, you know?

I went to the reverse process with Faith. When I first watched I was all "bitch!" because of how she betrayed Buffy. Later I tried to understand what she was going through at that time. I still think that she made dumb choices but she was also very lonely.

Riley in S4 is a good guy, but mostly I adore his interactions with Willow. I think that MC and SMG had a tremendous lack of chemistry and that didn't help Marc.

I do still feel sorry for Faith, just not outraged at the others on her behalf any more. She had a rough time, but except for Angel she had a bad habit of pushing away everyone who tried to help her.

Riley in S4 is a good guy, but mostly I adore his interactions with Willow. I think that MC and SMG had a tremendous lack of chemistry and that didn't help Marc.

I dunno. If I've learnt anything in fandom it's that onscreen chemistry is very much in the eyes of the beholder. I've seen plenty of Bangel 'shippers for instance claim that JM and SMG have no on screen chemistry at all. And while I'll happily believe that in some cases that's because they're Bangel 'shippers and don't want to see it, in others maybe the fact that they can't see it is part of the reason why they're Bangel 'shippers?

DB and SMG have it in spades, and I think JM and SMG do too. But I think there is chemistry of a sort between Marc Blucas and SMG. It's a lot quieter - more like the Buffy/Riley relationship, in fact - but I think it's there. I will agree that their sex scenes aren't particularly sexy, though. But then a lot of TV sex scenes aren't. Also, the height difference between them is so great it's kind of silly. SMG is about the same height as Blucas when he's sitting down. ;)

I will agree that their sex scenes aren't particularly sexy, though.

The first one kinda sums up the writing of the relationship: Trying too hard. I mean with the cuts from the fighting to the bedroom. Cringeworthy.

Yeah, it is a bit...what's the word?

Okay, I think you already used the word.

Oh well, at least I got this nice icon (courtesy of

ruuger out of it.

I'm really not sure what they were going for with Riley. I'm not sure the writers did, either. In the story, they write it as a more tempered romance, but then try to make it hot in directing and it doesn't work. Riley is just not written as that kind of character. At least not what one would conventionally call hot. It's not a jab at Blucas, he's just not written that way.

Also, it seems like every writer has a different take. Joss calls him well-adjusted (he wasn't) and Marti and Petrie clearly think he's the one who got away. Yet there was a podcast with a bunch of the writers not too long ago and they claimed it was supposed to be about Buffy realizing normal wasn't enough. This is surely not what was shown onscreen 'cause she was happy and chased after the helicopter. So someone's either fibbing or it was a completely botched storyline. With Joss I think he attempts to re-write the story after the fact, as he has a tendency to do. It's probably where Allie got it from.

With Joss I think he attempts to re-write the story after the fact, as he has a tendency to do.

I agree, though he may not realise he's doing it.

That's very interesting - some of the writers now satyng that Buffy/Riley was supposed to make Buffy realise normal wasn't enough, I mean. I've never, ever heard that interpretation before from anyone 'official'. It's possible they rewatched the eps and that's how it struck them now, I suppose?

'Course, Spike used to say that to Buffy all the time in season 6, but I always assumed we were meant to think it was just part of his evil plan to drag her down into the dark with him. ;)

Then again, there is an element of it - definitely. It's there from the first episode of season 5 when Buffy wakes up in the night, sneaks out of bed, goes and kills a vampire, then sneaks back to bed all without waking Riley up. That probably is a bit of an anvil, now I think of it.

Possibly, they started off thinking Riley was to be the anti-Angel - nice, normal, can go out in daylight, then realised it wasn't working and changed their tunes. In fact, that's more probable. The original story was changed because the chemistry wasn't right/the fans didn't like Riley etc, etc.

After all, from what we hear, if Joss had stuck inflexibly to his original plan for the show, there would have been no Angel, for a start. And probably a lot of stuff people like in the show would have been quite different.

The BvD scene never struck me as Buffy being unsatisfied with Riley. I can see how it could be read that way, but to me it came off as her at least subconsciously acknowledging she likes slaying.

But yeah, I think it's a case of 'fans think this, so yeah that's what we were writing, yup'. Just them trying to cover up for ineffective writing. They did the same thing with Spuffy, tbh. Contrast their comments in S6, which were all over the place, with the way they softened things up when referring to it in S7.

And probably a lot of stuff people like in the show would have been quite different.

Yup. That's why Joss's word has never been gold to me. Without the suits injecting stuff like Angel or writing playing off the actors, the show would not have been what it was. I firmly believe that without Gellar or Marsters, the characters would have been drastically different.

but to me it came off as her at least subconsciously acknowledging she likes slaying.

Well, season 5 (or really from Restless onwards)had a lot about what being the Slayer really means, and was also the first season where Buffy really seemed to accept that part of herself. Prior to that, especially in the high school years, there'd been a long-running theme about how being the Slayer was just a burden. And it still was, but she was also aware of being part of this long line of mystic warriors etc, etc.

They did the same thing with Spuffy, tbh. Contrast their comments in S6, which were all over the place, with the way they softened things up when referring to it in S7.

Oh, definitely. Seeing Red was a great about teaching the fans a lesson, then later it morphed into (according to Joss) into some bizarre notion of trying to show that even someone who commits the most heinous of crimes can genuinely want to change. Or some such. I can't remember Joss's exact words.

But yes, it was pretty all over the shop.

I firmly believe that without Gellar or Marsters, the characters would have been drastically different.

True of all the cast, I think, but in the case of JM, for certain if Spike had been played by a less charismatic actor Joss would probably have stuck with his original plan to kill him off half way through season 2. When making TV shows, though, you go with what works and you don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs etc, etc.

The fact that so many factors came together in just the right mix to create the whole of BtVS is what I meant in my 18th anniversary post about the show being lightning in a bottle (which is a phrase first used in my hearing

sueworld2003).

Well, season 5 (or really from Restless onwards)had a lot about what being the Slayer really means, and was also the first season where Buffy really seemed to accept that part of herself. Prior to that, especially in the high school years, there'd been a long-running theme about how being the Slayer was just a burden. And it still was, but she was also aware of being part of this long line of mystic warriors etc, etc.

I think the long-running conflict was never Buffy liking slaying* so much as slaying vs. being The Slayer. Choice vs burden. Willow gets to choose to join the fight, Buffy doesn't. Things look a little different if you don't have an option. We see this presented rather starkly in Bargaining when the Scoobies are out doing a routine patrol. Suddenly it's work and they're clearly not enjoying it. So they bring Buffy back to do it. Chosen makes it so none of them have to slay, don't have to be alone, don't have that burden. I know there's a lot of debate about it, but there is never anything (other than a few gags about hugs and handshakes) that says a slayer can't live a regular life if they want.

*I think what S5 is it's more about what slaying means. They mirror it in BvD and The Gift. "I prefer the term slayer. Killer sound so..." goes to "I guess a slayer really is just a killer after all." That goes back to Restless when dream!Riley addresses her as killer, her subconscious fears poking through.

I would like to respond intelligently to this comment, but I fear it's beyond me at the moment. I do see what you mean, though.

For Faith... I think a lot depends on how you see her character. The way she's played, she could be anything from about 14-15 (which I think is more interesting) to maybe 18-19. I don't think the writers really registered the range of possible ages. And her overall behavior fits better as a younger girl rather than as a barely grown woman.

And yeah, if you're taking Faith as a 14 year old, I'm pretty pissed at quite a lot of the adult characters, including the Mayor. No one treats her as just a girl. No one. And really, no one asks. They just glance at her, see "a woman" and assume. So many girls get hurt so badly that way.

I think Spike and Dru staying frozen in amber would not have been very interesting. But as they are in S2, either one could have chosen some form of redemption arc. Hell, they both could, and could go about it in very different ways. And using them as some form of recurring antagonist could also work. Villain... not so interesting. But just because your goals are opposed to someone else's goals doesn't mean you're the good guy and they're the bad guy. That's one of the things the Initiative storyline messes up pretty hard, probably in part due to fridging Walsh so the actress could do better paying jobs.

And yeah, if you're taking Faith as a 14 year old, I'm pretty pissed at quite a lot of the adult characters, including the Mayor. No one treats her as just a girl. No one. And really, no one asks. They just glance at her, see "a woman" and assume. So many girls get hurt so badly that way.

Well, I don't know much about American schools, but Faith says she dropped out of high school, so doesn't that mean she has to be at least 16, possibly older? I agree her behaviour doesn't fit a particular age. There are many very damaged young girls like Faith who act/appear older than they are. But I really don't think she's any younger than Buffy. She could even be older. I'm also not sure I agree about the Mayor. He's quite fatherly towards her, I think. On the other hand, he's getting her to be more evil, so it ends up being abusive anyway.

But as they are in S2, either one could have chosen some form of redemption arc. Hell, they both could, and could go about it in very different ways.

This is true. has written a really nice story about souled Spike deciding he's still in love with Dru and Dru seeking some kind of redemption. Crazy Madcap Redemption.

Yeah, Faith is the same age as Buffy is. Says 18-ish so possibly even older.

Ok, I dunno how it works in the UK. In the US, each state has an age requirement to drop out of school legally and each state decides individually. But kids can (and do!) drop out illegally. Doing so for the 13-14 year would be unusually young to do so, but not impossible to pull off. Doing so for the 14-15 year (freshman/9th grade, i.e. the year Buffy got Called and the first year of high school) is comparatively easy. The more you fit in the "bad kid" mold, the easier it is to pull this off... and Faith is written exactly right for this. For a typical Boston girl who drops out and runs away, she'd end up in New York City, probably as a hooker.

(side note: every single American school district varies. the commonest arrangement shown on TV is kindergarten and 1st through 5th grades in an elementary school, then a middle school/junior high for 6, 7 and 8, and a high school for 9, 10, 11 and 12. but I lived in a district where there was K-3, then "intermediate" for 4 and 5, then the middle school and high school matched the common arrangement. If I were 10 years older tho, high school would have been 10, 11 and 12 and 6 would have been in the elementary school. K-8 in one building happens a lot too. Or 7-9 off by themselves. Older than 18 is possible, but in combination with drop out... not usually in the way that Faith presents?)

The other thing is Faith is written as a kid in foster care, because in American culture they're the archetypal Bad Kids. (I have no idea what the UK analogue is) That means she has been taken from her biological parents because the great Commonwealth of Massachusetts ruled her parents as unfit (this usually takes multiple counts of child abuse *and* multiple counts of drug possession by the parents). Kids in foster care have pretty horrible outcomes on average even now, and when the show was airing the stats were worse. Kids fairly routinely get "lost", in that the checks to make sure that they're with the foster parents and attending school just don't happen, or happen less often than they're supposed to. And for a kid in the high school age range, the checks are once a year or so. (again, all this varies from state to state, there are no uniform standards)

Since the Mayor is y'know, the Mayor, he's part of the government. So he's supposed to y'know... uphold the law. That means harboring a runaway teenage girl is not exactly something he's supposed to be doing. Doesn't matter how kind he is, or how fatherly he might seem. His job as a grown up and a civil servant is to get her into some semblance of a home life with adult supervision and advice, and to do so legally. Since Giles is a school employee, this is also his job. And instead they both just... let it go. And the writers do too. Whoops.

The sucky bit is Faith isn't the first time or the last time writers from Buffy do this kind of lazy writing, where they just skip out on an easy source of dramatic tension and conflict. They do it at the start of S3 in Anne. Then in S6 with Dawn. It shows up with Claudia on Warehouse 13. It shows up in Agents of SHIELD with Skye. And I'm sure it's been a problem on other shows too, these are just the instances I as a fairly infrequent TV watcher can come up with.

Okay, I can see this is big issue for you so I'm withdrawing from this conversation.

I will say again, though, that I believe Faith is the same age/older than Buffy. Also, the Mayor, however kindly disposed towards her is evil and is trying to get her to do evil things so that if he doesn't do the things he should be doing as a civil servant it isn't really surprising.

I also think that these kinds of fantasy/genre shows are probably not the best place to be exploring in depth the social issues you mention as they are not really equipped to do so in a responsible, realistic way.

Thanks for your interesting comments.

Edited 2015-03-24 10:01 (UTC)

I remember eagerly looking forward to getting my Spike fix on AtS and being so disappointed when he appeared to have become stupid, cocky, banter boy again. When there were all these serious, significant arcs happening around him, he just seemed to be passively caught in the slipstream. Until he raised his arm and volunteered for certain death at the very end, it was impossible to see the hero of 'Chosen'.

For the most part, I'd have to agree with that assessment. Spike does get some good scenes scattered here and there where he comes across as something more than a rude idiot, but they're few and far between.

I read at the time that he was basically a replacement for Cordy - truth speaker, blunt, direct and abrasive. Well, if that's what they were aiming for, they got the tone completely wrong.

I think that was supposed to be his role in season 4 of BtVS actually. I never read it in connection with AtS season 5. But ultimately it's the same anyway.

And his arc was definitely derailed, for whatever reason. Possibly, it was partly to do with the fact that James was supposed to take a break and go shoot a movie, that then fell through, so the character had to be shoehorned into episodes where there was nothing much for him to do. But I don't know where those episodes would have fallen in the season. Anyway, I do remember being massively, massively disappointed that bringing Spike back and recorporealising him was nothing to do with him. It was just Lindsey trying to get revenge on Angel. Spike himself was not important.

That's very Jossian in a way, I suppose, but it again makes me feel like the character got shortchanged.

No particular comment but it's interesting to see how your perspectives have changed with a rewatch. I've never done a complete rewatch of either series but I suspect that like someone commented above, that all the different takes apparent in fic has probably influenced me a lot in how I see the characters.

It can do. And not just fic. Various topics that have been discussed in meta can also have an influence.

Season 5 is probably the most coherently plotted season of the show. It's also the most emotionally demanding of the viewer. Yes, season 2 has some harrowing moments, but nothing - not even sending Angel to hell- can really beat Buffy losing her mother. The fact that it's down to mundane illness rather than something supernatural gives it even more power.

It's interesting that season 6 is commonly remembered as the really depressing season, even though season 5 is the one with the many hospital scenes, Buffy needing to grow up fast, and Joyce finally dying. If anything season 6 seemed to introduce a little more comedy with the trio, but it was hard to get anything too light-hearted out of the stretch of episodes from The Body-The Gift. (Well maybe the Buffybot's appearances, but other than that!)

And totally agreed on Spike's arc on Angel being a let-down. For me I also loved his early character in seasons 2 and 3 because he was always portrayed as being unusual for a villain with his capacity for emotions and how much his life revolved around Drusilla, and they obviously ran with that tortured poet aspect of his character in season 5 when he fell for Buffy, but I struggled to care about him as much on Angel when he only seemed to be there for comic relief. I know that a lot of fans were hoping for a romance with Spike and Fred on Ats, and while I wasn't particularly a fan of that pairing, I can see why fans would grasp on to anything like that because the romantic in Spike had been such a big aspect of his character.

I guess the problem was that he was never going to get the same focus as leading man Angel, fans were already fearing that Spike was going to overshadow Angel and ~take over~ the show, so I'm betting that the writers were wary of building up any kind of big romantic storyline for Spike that might switch the viewers focus from Angel. Instead we could only care about Spike in relation to his bickering relationship with Angel, and it was hard to care about that when they didn't even seem particularly bromantic? I got an irritating little brother vibe more than anything else with those two, they didn't exactly get very intense scenes together even

I guess the problem was that he was never going to get the same focus as leading man Angel, fans were already fearing that Spike was going to overshadow Angel and ~take over~ the show, so I'm betting that the writers were wary of building up any kind of big romantic storyline for Spike that might switch the viewers focus from Angel. Instead we could only care about Spike in relation to his bickering relationship with Angel.

In a nutshell, yes, unfortunately. The show already had a leading man, and a tragic/romantic male figure in Wesley. Then it had Gunn, who until season 5, didn't get a decent storyline in his entire time on the show. There was no role left for Spike except comic relief. So, apart from some nice interactions with Fred, the softer side of his character just got thrown out the window. And there could never have been anything between Spike and Fred. Joss was all about Wesley/Fred/Illyria. Spike would never have got a look in.

I got an irritating little brother vibe more than anything else with those two, they didn't exactly get very intense scenes together even.

They get a few good ones, which I enjoy - notably the scene on the couch in Hellbound where Angel admits to liking Spike's poetry, and the final scene in Damage. Have to admit, I'm a big fan of the Spangel scenes in TGiQ too because there they both get to be comic relief.

Edited 2015-03-29 14:00 (UTC)

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Some Scattershot BtVS thoughts

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