A writing Whinge (because I haven't done one of those for, oh, at least a week and a half)

[shapinglight]

to misquote Joyce from School Hard, and with further mention of various thoughts I've had during my BtVS rewatch.

And I would've put all of that in the title of my post, but LJ wouldn't let me.

Anyway, yes. I'm supposed to be writing something for seasonal_spuffy at the beginning of May, but have no ideas whatsoever. I suppose I should ask for prompts. Prompts, anyone?



I'm wondering when it was I became primarily a Spuffy writer (which has sort of happened by default, must admit, because even before the Buffy comics stomped all over the very idea, I didn't think Buffy meant the ILY in Chosen - not that she has to have meant it for people to be able to write Spuffy, but still...).

I think it must be down to sb_fag_ends as much as anything. I try (though I failed miserably last year) to produce at least one drabble or ficlet for the comm every month, and my fic ideas are so thin on the ground now that I don't have any left over for seasonal_spuffy.

:Gloom:

It's not just something for seasonal_spuffy I'm struggling with writing either. I had every intention of getting on with my abandoned Spangel story while S was away last weekend, but ended up writing a measly 1500 words that didn't advance the plot much at all.

I started the story in 2007 (I think). The part I'd already written had some bits and pieces of slashy stuff in it. I think I'm probably going to have to remove them wholesale.

This is because I'm finding it very difficult to even entertain the idea of Spangel these days, thanks to the comics showing the relationship between Spike and Angel as nine parts raging hatred and one part gay panic (on both their parts, but especially Spike's), not to mention when re-watching the Spike/Angel interaction in BtVS season 2 I couldn't for the life of me see where the dynamic between them, as so often written in old slash fics, ever came from in the first place.

There aren't many of the old slash writers around these days, and the ones that are're probably not on my flist, but if anyone has an opinion on the subject I would be quite interested to know what they think that dynamic was based on back in the day (you know, the sire/childe stuff, which I freely admit to enjoying a lot at one time, not to mention writing it myself). Was it based solely on the fact that Spike originally said Angel was his sire and people just took that and ran with it, and then people read their stories and a huge body of fanon developed which lots of people confused with canon, or what?

Returning to the subject of me not being able to write anything, sadly, much though I'd like to put it down to disillusionment with fanon tropes, I'm afraid it's far more down to me just being out of ideas. I can't work out how the plot of this Spangel fic should go forward to the end I envisaged for it (at least I do have an end envisaged), and generally writing is just all hard and stuff and makes my brain hurt. :(

:More gloom:

Comments

[snickfic]

I will be watching the comments to this post with interest, because what you describe possibly happening with Spike/Angel (a line taken and run with, a lot of people more invested in fanon than canon) is definitely something I've seen with other slash fandoms more recently. I wonder if there's some kind of connection, although maybe it's just that non-canon pairings are more likely to trend that way.

Also, writing IS all hard and stuff. You have all my sympathies. :(

[shapinglight]

Well, I wouldn't say that Spike/Angel is completely non-canonical. There was 'that one time' they were intimate, according to Spike in AtS season 5. I appreciate, though, that was probably just a bone thrown to the fans by the writers. Along with pretty much the whole of TGiQ. ;)

But yes, I think if someone invents (well, 'invents' isn't really the right word, because there's nothing really new in fandom) a trope to do with a pairing and other people like it and take up and write it themselves, there'll soon be such a body of fic that other people coming in will take that on board just as much as they take original canon on board. That's how fanon works.

It can be a bit unnerving, though, when people take it so far they insist that fanon stuff is actually canon, which is something I've seen a time or two.

With Spike and Angel, I was just interested to know how it all started, as I wasn't really in the fandom until the end of BtVS season 4/AtS season 1 and the fanon was very well established by then. So the Angelus arc in season 2 has to be what set it off, I guess.

[rahirah]

I wasn't around back then, nor am I a slasher, but I can see enough subtext to run with between Spike and Angel in S2. And incest ships have become a huge, popular thing in more recent fandoms, so I would guess that Spike/Angel filled a need for fans of that type of thing before it was widely acceptable to ship literally incestuous pairings.

If you don't mind saying, what is the end you were aiming for?

[shapinglight]

but I can see enough subtext to run with between Spike and Angel in S2.

On my latest rewatch (which is the first time I've watched season 2 in donkeys' years) I can still see the subtext if I squint, but I'm not sure if that's because I know about fanon or because it's really there. I guess if people who haven't read loads of Spike/Angel slash can see it then it must be there?

Even so, I don't get how people extrapolated the sire/childe stuff from it. I'd like to know who first came up with that (especially the spelling of 'childe'). Was it borrowed wholesale from some other vampire franchise?

If you don't mind saying, what is the end you were aiming for?

Well, I don't want to be too specific in case I ever do finish the story, but basically Spike and Angel escape from the seemingly impossible to escape from trap they've been put in by Wolfram & Hart and have their whole (un)lives in front of them.

[rbfvid.livejournal.com]

If you are completely out of ideas for Spuffy fic, you can write plain and simple "they talk about their issues" story. For instance, because Buffy is the one who recieves the amulet and ghost!Spike, and now talking is the only way for them to interact.

About Angel and Spike... I recently rewatched some bits and pieces of S2, and spangel subtext was still there. It could be partially attributed to JM's ability to have chemistry with anyone (including crypt door), but even that aside there are enough hints to make it a valid pairing.

[shapinglight]

I'm sure I'll think of something in the end (I hope), even if it's ultimately very short. But yes. Thank you. Good idea.

I recently rewatched some bits and pieces of S2, and spangel subtext was still there. It could be partially attributed to JM's ability to have chemistry with anyone (including crypt door), but even that aside there are enough hints to make it a valid pairing.

As I said to rahirah, I can still sort of see it myself if I squint, but I'm not sure if that's because it's really there, or because I've read so many slash fics. ;)

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

Spangel shippers took a few snippets from the show and ran with it. Pretty much the same as most other ships. I started out reading Spuffy. But then somewhere along the line I read my first Spangel fic, and that was it. It just felt more edgy to me. More intense. I also have a kink for the dominance/submission thing which fits very nicely with Spangel. It makes a difference to me that they share a history. Also a crucial part of the appeal is that they are both vampires. They both come from a vampire perspective and they do vampire things, and I find that fascinating.

But lately I find it more difficult to buy into. As far as canon, Spike was a thorn in Angel's side and nothing more. Angel was distasteful and uninspired according to Spike and never deserved what he got. (I can see that point).

I also agree with your opinion that Buffy did not mean the ILY in Chosen. I saw many scenes where she showed a special connection with Spike and where she really cared about him. But I don't think she loved him. (Spuffy isn't strictly canon either if it is about them being in love and holding hands.) Although there is certainly the possibility they met up after NFA and fell in love for real. I think Spike would have had a lot of growing up to do for that to happen. Buffy and Angel are canon... in all aspects, but I don't buy it. I reject the necessity of canon in any of this. I think the dynamic between any two characters in fan fiction is more about what speaks to the reader deep inside then what happened or didn't happen on the show. (How else do you explain the large Spander contingency?)

As far as Spuffy, there are so many places to take that relationship, and even though I am somewhat ambivalent about it, I understand it is probably the most important ship in the fandom. The glue that binds it all together. But I find myself less invested in fics that show them too much like what a human boyfriend and girlfriend would be. I find it hard to believe Spike would be housetrained for any length of time. So if you want a suggestion for your Spuffy fic, I would like to see something between a slayer and a vampire, sharing the moment but understanding the realities.

[shapinglight]

Spangel shippers took a few snippets from the show and ran with it. Pretty much the same as most other ships.

Oh, definitely. And I appreciate they got more than all the other 'shipping groups, including Spike's reference to the 'one time' he and Angel were intimate (not to mention the entirety of TGiQ and Angelus's OTT comments about doing bad stuff with 'another man' and being deviant from Destiny). I do wonder a lot where some of the 'trappings' of those early fics came from, though.

It makes a difference to me that they share a history.

It does to me too, which is why it annoys me so flipping much when the characters act as if they don't. Which, as you point out, they mostly do. In AtS season 5, Spike claims a familial relationship with Angel (grandsire) but Angel won't have it. Then the comics (or at least season 8 since Joss was still involved with them at that point) seem to make it pretty clear all they feel for each other is hatred. Though again it feels pretty one way. Angel hates Spike way more than Spike hates Angel. But even if you discount the comics (which many do, and I certainly don't consider them canon like the show), that's pretty much my prevailing impression.

Angel isn't Spike's sire. He doesn't care about him. In fact, he despises him and wants him gone. If that's what you think (which is pretty much what I think now)it's hard to 'ship them.

I think the dynamic between any two characters in fan fiction is more about what speaks to the reader deep inside then what happened or didn't happen on the show. (How else do you explain the large Spander contingency?)

This is all quite true, especially of Spander, a 'ship that will always remain a complete mystery to me.

But I find myself less invested in fics that show them too much like what a human boyfriend and girlfriend would be.

Me too, though I actually think that Spike is quite domesticated. And thank you for your suggestion. Did you ever read a fic I wrote for seasonal_spuffy called Last Dance? It's sorta, kinda what you said you'd like to see.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

At least you do manage something for sb_fag_ends! I feel like such a slacker when it really is about the only community left (other than SS) that I never miss. And yet, I don't remember the last time I had anything to contribute. *sigh*

I look at all the shortish (often non-Spuffy) things I wrote when I was following Taming the Muse, bingos of one sort or another, and fag_ends, and I realize that my lack of activity and ideas now is because instead of using those to prompts to spark ideas (or making myself write something even if they didn't spark something) as I did then, I'm looking at them and going "oh, I don't have any ideas for that" I can't write anything." Sheer laziness on my part that I won't try unless something pops into mind immediately. I really want to make myself start trying again, but so far I haven't. And then there's the whole shrinking fandom thing which leaves me wondering if anybody would want to read anything if I did make myself write it. Even though I know it would be the act of writing that was the important thing for my mental health.

For well over 12 years, I have spent much of my free time writing fic. And loving it. Now, I feel like I don't know what to do with myself when I'm not writing, and yet I'm not making myself explore any other fandoms or options. *obviously have joined you in whinging*


I think any canon suggestions of Spangel came well after fandom had made it a thing, but I haven't been doing much with the re-watch, so I could be wrong. I know I've always believed there'd been some Spangel action back when Spike was a fledge, and maybe even later, but I suspect that can be attributed to my having read some very good Spangelish fics when I was first making my way into and through fanfic. I'm pretty sure many of my beliefs are fanon, not canon, and I just never bothered to realize that.

It's funny you should say that there are so few slash writers around now when for quite a while, I've felt like that was taking over fandom. :) But you may know a lot more of them than I do and would be more likely to notice if they went missing. Slash isn't something I seek out, it's just something I've read a good bit of through the years either because Spike was involved (my "I'll read anything with Spike in it" phase), or because I was judging somewhere, or because, due to one of the first two reasons, I really liked the author and knew it would probably be good.

[shapinglight]

And yet, I don't remember the last time I had anything to contribute. *sigh*

Well, commenting is contributing, IMO. Even more so these days when the fandom on LJ is so quiet. It is quiet, you're quite right, and most people do like some comments because otherwise you feel like you're shouting into the dark. I get around that by posting everything on A03 too. Not so many comments, maybe, but the hits and kudos make you feel like someone's looking anyway.

Now, I feel like I don't know what to do with myself when I'm not writing, and yet I'm not making myself explore any other fandoms or options. *obviously have joined you in whinging*

Heh! It's catching. I'm the same (and have been writing fanfic for almost as long), except that I don't have any urge to explore other fandoms to write in. If I do write something that isn't Buffy fanfic I hope it'll be original fic. Also, I honestly can't believe after all these years I'll find another fandom I get so deeply involved in that I want to write fanfic for it.

I think any canon suggestions of Spangel came well after fandom had made it a thing, but I haven't been doing much with the re-watch, so I could be wrong.

Well, there are things you can see in season 2 and later if you squint, but an awful lot of the early slash fics are (as 'shipper fic so often is) people taking tiny hints and running with it. And you're right that anything explicit in canon (the 'that one time' comment in AtS 5 and the slashy flashback in Destiny, and the silly stuff in TGiQ are the writers reflecting stuff back to the fans.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I remember a lot of debates regarding Spike and Angel back in the day. Prior to Fool for Love, everyone believed that Angelus sired Spike. In fact that was heavily suggested in S2 in the subtext - that Spike and Dru were Angel's creations. And again in S1 Angel. In fact Spike sort of declares it in School Hard.

But Whedon retconned it in Fool for Love, most likely he forgot the speech in School Hard, and he figured people would fanwank the heck out of it. (They did - hence the debates.) Actually Fool for Love is controversial episode - because it basically killed a dozen allegedly canonical fanfics. Everyone, including James Marsters, believed Spike was originally some street punk that Angelus turned. I know fans who hated that episode because they declared it ruined Spike.
They were very wedded to what they thought was his back story based on S2-S4.

Later, it was clear there was a sibling rivalry between the two, and if you watched the final season of Angel, it appeared that the writers were writing Spike as Angel's love interest. Actually they were - that was the intent, albeit not in the sexual context (well depending on the writer). Whedon went so far as to piss off Marsters by calling him the ingenu - what he meant was that Spike was being introduced as the guy that Angel hates at the beginning but ends up closest to at the end. They are almost tied to the hip by the end of the Angel S5. It was the idea of the younger brother/older brother rivalry, but also at the end of day - deep caring and bond that crosses centuries. Heck, there's even a comment in one of episodes by Spike, to Illyria, oh no, we were never intimate, well except for that one time.

Plus Spike and Angel had excellent banter in S5. They fought like an old married couple.
Finishing each sentences. No one could push Angel's buttons better than Spike.

That season launched a dozen Spangel shippers. Heck, I shipped them after that season.
Although more in a brotherly context.

The slash romantic shipping happened during S2 - when Spike is in the wheel chair and Angelus kisses the top of his head. Also School Hard launched it.

As for Buffy's ILY in Chosen? That season was written so vaguely, you could interpret it multiple ways. I've argued it both ways. Actually I wrote a Spuffy fanfic entitled No Regrets that had the two characters discussing their relationship, Angel, and everything. They don't end up together. I think she loved him, for the record, the text and subtext arguably does support it. But not in a "I want to set up house and have kids with you" context. She knew they couldn't be together in that way. But she did love and trust him more than anyone else at that point, and said so more than once with actions and words. ("He's the only one who has my back" or "Your words gave me the courage I needed"). I mean, I haven't watched it since 2008, so my memory may be off. But having argued that one to death by now? I honestly think it can be interpreted multiple ways - because Whedon wrote it that way, and apparently there was some disagreement amongst the writers on whether she did or should or could ever love him - so it was written all over the map. They wrote her relationship with Angel equally vaguely - so it could be interpreted multiple ways. Resulting in lots of fun and ultimately pointless fan fights over it.

[Note - I don't consider the comics canon, and have chosen to ignore their existence.]

[rahirah]

Actually there was a magazine 'interview' with Spike and Drusilla published in late S2 where Spike said Drusilla was his sire, and what little he decribes of it doesn't contradict FFL. So that part seems to have been retconned pretty early, even if it never made it onto the show. (Spike being roughly 150 in that article also fits with the FFL turning date, which makes it really weird when he claims to be 126 in S4.) Interestingly, when asked about his human past in that interview, Spike refused to answer and just said it was "embarrassing."

[shapinglight]

In fact Spike sort of declares it in School Hard.

Yeah, he does, but I firmly believe that Joss never meant that to be more than Spike claiming Angel as his mentor. Or if it did, Joss had changed his mind as early as Lie To Me only a few episodes later. In that, Angel confesses to Buffy that he sired Drusilla and describes what he did to her at great length, but he never mentions Spike. I just feel that if he'd sired Spike too that would have been the moment he would have mentioned it. Likewise, in that episode he meets Dru and tells her to 'take Spike and leave Sunnydale' which comes across to me as him thinking Spike is far more Drusilla's responsibility than he is Angel's own. I dunno. I just think that if there was a retcon it happened a long time before FFL.

They were very wedded to what they thought was his back story based on S2-S4.

Yes, which, as a Brit, never made sense to me. I'd read all these people describing Spike as a 'Cockney' and wince. He doesn't sound Cockney at all.

Not that this figures either way, obviously. The show wasn't being made for Brits.

it appeared that the writers were writing Spike as Angel's love interest. Actually they were - that was the intent, albeit not in the sexual context (well depending on the writer).

Yeah, I do remember Joss (I think it was him) saying that Spike was the best 'love interest' Angel had ever had in the show, though I don't think he meant it literally (and also think it was a bit insulting to Charisma Carpenter).

Whedon went so far as to piss off Marsters by calling him the ingenu - what he meant was that Spike was being introduced as the guy that Angel hates at the beginning but ends up closest to at the end.

I don't think that's what Whedon meant by 'ingenue'. In theatrical terms, an ingenue is a female character who is endearingly innocent and wholesome (like Fred), which is why JM was so insulted to be called that. But I think Whedon probably meant that Spike was a naive outsider in the W&H set up.

Plus Spike and Angel had excellent banter in S5. They fought like an old married couple.

There are definitely elements of that later in the season. I love the scene at the beginning of AHitW where Spike has stuck a sword through Angel and Angel is complaining about it. Very funny.

The Spangel Bit

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I hear you. I have four story tabs open and all I can do is skip around the internet, avoiding them.

As you know, I'm not exactly an Angel fan, but I think there's enough in S2 to provide a basis for Spangel. Not to say that a bunch of stuff wasn't made up out of whole cloth by the fans. But it's there, just like so many other things the fans seized upon and made much of. I think maybe Spike's "I've been hurt before" to Willy in What's My Line does as much as anything to set the stage. He's being sarcastic, of course, but there's that thread of truth in that he immediately goes to the romance place when Willy asks what he's going to do Angel. *shrugs*

There FFL and it's twin on AtS as well as all of AtS S5 do add to the possibilities. While I agree that Angel doesn't show a ton ANY affection for Spike in those episodes (aside from liking his poetry) there is enough approval-seeking on Spike's side to indicate that something might have been there. Angelus, we know, always wants to have the power, and I can't imagine he didn't have fun exercising this on young William. The proof of his affection/acceptance/attraction is just this: Spike survived.

BTW: I've been rewatching Agent Carter with my neighbors, and after reading BGF's Don't Rock the Moat I have to say that there is a strong case for Angie/Peggy right there on the screen. I can't believe I missed it the first time through. Heh.

Re: The Spangel Bit

[shapinglight]

He's being sarcastic, of course, but there's that thread of truth in that he immediately goes to the romance place when Willy asks what he's going to do Angel. *shrugs*

You're right that that's the sort of thing fans seize on. I can still see it. I just don't quite understand where all the 'trappings' of early Spangel slash came from, in which Angelus is so very paternalistic. 'Cos in the show, he's not like that at all. Not once. At least, I don't think so. Even in BtVS season 2, the vibe I get from him towards Spike is far more bullying older brother.

Angelus, we know, always wants to have the power, and I can't imagine he didn't have fun exercising this on young William.

Oh sure. Bullies always want an audience. And I'm sure he was very good at making William feel like a co-conspirator when he wasn't making him the butt of his humour.

The proof of his affection/acceptance/attraction is just this: Spike survived.

True, though we don't know much of that might have been down to Dru. When I write historical fics I usually end up writing that Darla and Angelus put up with William because he kept Dru occupied. I dunno. I do still think they're a family of sorts, but if Darla and Angelus were the 'parents', they were horrible, neglectful ones.

I have to say that there is a strong case for Angie/Peggy right there on the screen. I can't believe I missed it the first time through. Heh.

I'll have to try doing that and see what I think. Fanfic can really influence how you see things.

[davesmusictank.livejournal.com]

I just stumbled across this page , and loving the idea of anything to do with BtVs and Angel. A big fan and enjoying finding fan fic. May i add yu to my F list?

[shapinglight]

Sure. No problem.

The Spuffy Bit

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'm wondering when it was I became primarily a Spuffy writer

It is interesting, isn't it? I am a bit ecumenical in my shipping, and like writing genfic as much as anything with a pairing, but Spuffy is probably what I'm most associated with. When I started out, I thought it would be Spru...

I do believe the ILU in Chosen, but that's because my interpretation of Buffy's character is that while she isn't above using sex as a weapon, she isn't likely to use affection as a bribe or out of "gratitude". Maybe that's parsing things too fine? It makes sense to me, anyway.

Writing Spuffy is a particular problem, though, because there's been so much of it, and so much of it has been really good, that's it hard to find any ground that hasn't already been covered by writers more able than I — and almost as able as yourself. But…then something springs to mind! Your "King and She" was a brilliant and novel approach, I thought.

I used to get inspired by disagreeing with other people's interpretation…but don't seem to be engaged on that level lately.

So, prompts: Since you've got some Spangel problems to work through, and you've got some doubts about Spuffy — both of which I'd posit are partly because neither Buffy nor Angel are demonstrative enough to deserve Spike? — perhaps there's something to explore in the place where those two things intersect? You hinted a little at that in "King and She", but perhaps you could do one that involved some sort of oil? Mmmmmm. *comes back from happy place* I know you could make it hurt delightfully.

Re: The Spuffy Bit

[shapinglight]

I do believe the ILU in Chosen, but that's because my interpretation of Buffy's character is that while she isn't above using sex as a weapon, she isn't likely to use affection as a bribe or out of "gratitude". Maybe that's parsing things too fine? It makes sense to me, anyway.

I don't mean to imply that Buffy didn't care about Spike at all. I think she'd come to care about him a lot. But I do think he was right in thinking that when she said, "I love you," it wasn't like that, if you see what I mean. Oh, I dunno. I'm probably explaining it wrong.

But…then something springs to mind! Your "King and She" was a brilliant and novel approach, I thought.

Thank you. I did enjoy writing that. I thought of trying to do a sequel, but I like how it ended way too much to mess with it, I think. I do have an idea now, actually. It's not much of one - certainly nothing like The King and She - but hopefully it'll do.

both of which I'd posit are partly because neither Buffy nor Angel are demonstrative enough to deserve Spike?

You're right when it comes to Angel, I think, but where Buffy's concerned, not so much. I don't think she has anything to prove when it comes to Spike. She's certainly not obliged to love him. I think with Spuffy, though, even though I don't think she meant the ILY, I think she could come to love him. With Angel, I'm just frustrated. Especially post-season 8 (though I know I should exclude everything from the comics from my thinking, I can't always do it), he has absolutely no high ground to stand on when it comes to Spike and just want him to get down off his high horse and admit he's no better. In other words, I want their dynamic to change, but I don't think it will - not in official product anyway. If I ever finish this Spangel story, it will have changed somewhat (even though the story completely ignores the comics. Bad enough that events in them creep in and colour my feelings about the characters. I'm not letting them into my fic too).

[ex_peasant441]

It's all a long time ago so it is of course hard to remember, but I know I read very little fanfic before I started writing, and I knew nothing about the conventions, or even much of what slash was, while I knew the show very well indeed, so the subtext must have been sufficiently strong to me it made sense.

The sire/child(e) stuff comes from BTVS S2 and the few interactions we got in S3, AtS1 and S4 - which was all I had seen when I started writing - when of course Angelus as Spike's sire was canon. I know some people claim they could always tell it was supposed to be Dru, but I seriously doubt they could do that without the benefit of hindsight. Certainly there was not a single fic written pre-FFL that had Dru as Spike's sire. The closest anyone came to pre-guessing FFL was Sabershadowkat, who wrote a grand total of one fic (and remember how large her output was) in which human William was a nice lower-middle class boy rather than a thug. For everyone else, and for SSK the rest of the time, Angelus was Spike's sire and human William was a working class rough.

Ha, I remember back in the day when these arguments mattered SO MUCH :D

Another thing you have to remember is that slash subtext is much more overt these days than it was back then. We live in a post-Torchwood, post-Merlin, post-Supernatural world, where the subtext is damn near text. We worked harder for our crumbs back in the day ;)

As for why you became a Spuffy writer, I think it was partly that you ran out of new things to say about Angel/Spike first simply because you started writing them first. Also you always wrote them in a very violent way and you no longer write such violent fics.

[rahirah]

I seem to remember some fics (I think SSK wrote one, but there were others) where William was the debauched and licentious son of a duke or something...

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

You ponder the most interesting questions!

Thinking about it...

It's not Buffy, and it's not slash, but my main ship is totally non-canon -- in fact, the characters never speak to each other, in the books or in the films (though Legolas twice speaks sympathetically about Eowyn in the books, and there is a moment in the second film where they are shown standing side-by-side, which, given film conventions, was enough to make some people think that they would 'end up together'). Despite the lack of interaction, though, I still feel that Legolas & Eowyn have chemistry, both when other people write them and when I write them.

I think it's partly a match-making impulse -- we see two people who seem suited (physically, emotionally, intellectually), feel they should be together, and introduce them. (Luckily, writing fanfiction isn't meddling with real lives!) For me, the interesting question is why are women so inclined to put two men together? They often say it gives them the chance to explore a relationship that doesn't conform to m/f stereotypes, but that doesn't explain why they don't write a m/f relationship that doesn't conform to m/f stereotypes!

I've always felt that non-canon shipping is about delving beneath the surface of canon and building a coherent (secret) alternative but, these days, I've noticed that fans are more and more anxious for their ships to become canon, and will try to pressurise the program makers. Maybe it's two different types of fan -- the fic writers who are content to fantasise, and activists who want representation?

I do think that what you read in fanfiction gets fed back into canon, in the sense that it makes you interpret interactions between the characters in ways that someone who hasn't been primed wouldn't. And that if, for some reason, you stop believing in the relationship, you lose the goggles.

[shapinglight]

I do think that what you read in fanfiction gets fed back into canon, in the sense that it makes you interpret interactions between the characters in ways that someone who hasn't been primed wouldn't. And that if, for some reason, you stop believing in the relationship, you lose the goggles.

Yeah, I'd say that's pretty much happened to me with regard to Spangel. Spuffy is different. I may not believe that Buffy meant it in the romantic sense that Spike meant it when she told Spike she loved him, but I do think that she could come to love him further down the line. There's possibility there.

As for non-canon 'ships, I've written plenty of them (mainly slash pairings, Spike/Giles is a particular favourite) and it is all about the potential, I think. It's fun putting characters together who never were together in the show/book/film and seeing what comes out. A good writer can make you believe in it, at least while you're reading.

For me, the interesting question is why are women so inclined to put two men together?

There's a simple answer to this - two hot guys, why wouldn't you put them together?

I'm sure there are lots of far more complicated answers too. For me, for instance, the simple answer isn't reason enough to do it. It's as much to do with the fluid nature of the Buffyverse as it is about the characters. By which I mean, if I was writing in a different fandom I suspect I would probably just write het or gen. Other people would have other reasons.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - this is becoming such an interesting thread. One thing leads to another. I have to say - re Angelus being Spike's sire, I never got that sense from the scene in season II. I definitely took it to mean Angelus had been his mentor (Because, Dru? Seriously?) and that they were close at one time. I don't know why, but I know watching Dru sire William didn't come as a shock or surprise. I'd assumed she was his sire, just didn't know when or how she did it. I like the big brother/little bother theory. They definitely fight like family, and yet, that family bond is there that keeps them in each others lives. I don't recall if the whole "vampires will do anybody/any sex/ any time" thing is something we get from canon comments, or if it's fanon, but if it exists, then there's no reason not to think Angelus had his way with William more than once....

Spike's age makes me crazy... The only time I remember it being mentioned on the show is the scene in season four when he says he's "only 126". I remember doing and then redoing and then redoing again the math when writing Hearts Breaking Even so as to get the right year for William to have been only 9 when Buffy meets him. I think I've gone out of my way most of the time since then to avoid any detailed mention of Spike's age or dob or date of siring - just to not have to hurt my brain again. Knowing that it's probably Joss canon for him to have been 150 at some point makes me want to cry. (unless we say he was 25 when sired and then add the 126...Gah!)

It's really silly for fans to get all huffy and combative about much of canon because Joss and/or the writers themselves played so fast and loose with it. Continuity was never a big deal to them, so for us to fight over differing canon "proof" of one thing or another is kind of a waste of energy. The fact that there can be more than one interpretation of many scenes and relationships is one of the things that makes writing in this fandom so awesome and fruitful.

[shapinglight]

I don't know why, but I know watching Dru sire William didn't come as a shock or surprise.

It didn't to me either. I suppose if I'd been writing reams of slash fic before FFL aired, all with the premise that Angel had sired Spike, I would feel very differently. But Dru having sired him makes far more sense to me any way, with the way they behave around each other.

I don't recall if the whole "vampires will do anybody/any sex/ any time" thing is something we get from canon comments, or if it's fanon, but if it exists, then there's no reason not to think Angelus had his way with William more than once....

Oh, I'm sure he did, if only in a sticking two fingers up to society's norms, kind of way. I don't have any trouble still slashing them in that sense. I just have trouble seeing any liking between them, especially on Angel's part, that would make me slash them in the present.

I really don't care about Spike's age being changed. As you say, Joss isn't big on continuity - which is actually one of the things that makes BtVS/AtS so easy to fanfic.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Half the fun in reading a fanfic, or writing one, is finding that intersection of questions where things don't fit. Angel was his sire - no Dru was his sire - the standard answer was that Angelus helped Dru sire him.

I think the fact that Spike survived is actually a testament to his refusal to mindlessly obey. He kept things interesting for Angel. He made sure he was a challenge. I've always found in interesting that a fair amount of people seem to see the fanged four as two different couples.

Sex feels good - why on earth would Angel not use sex to dominate Spike? Why wouldn't they just do it for pleasure on sunny days? Same with Dru and Darla, or any combination. I don't think the Destiny confrontation was about Dru - Dru was a microcosm of what Angel threatened. Anything Spike ever achieved, Angel said he could take away. I think that was the defining moment.

But it's hard to find those cracks and intersections without coming up with a bunch of stories already written. And there are kind of standard answers to various dilemmas. I really would love some new and unique Spangel stories but I can't write or find any.

One thought I have had - once Angel becomes head of W&H, why wouldn't the order of Aurelius decide he is the new head of the order. After all, even though he has a soul, he is also the CEO of Evil Inc. That would be fun. Sadly, beyond the set-up I have nothing.

And I do not read comics. Ever.

[shapinglight]

the standard answer was that Angelus helped Dru sire him

I have seen that one, though it makes no sense to me that Dru would have needed any help.

I've always found in interesting that a fair amount of people seem to see the fanged four as two different couples.

Erm...they are. This doesn't mean that they're not also a family. But I see the primary relationships as being between Darla and Angelus and Spike and Dru, with Dru/Angelus also being quite important. Other combinations - Spike/Angelus, Spike/Darla - are just sidelines, IMO. Speaking as someone who loves writing Spike and Darla.

One thought I have had - once Angel becomes head of W&H, why wouldn't the order of Aurelius decide he is the new head of the order. After all, even though he has a soul, he is also the CEO of Evil Inc. That would be fun. Sadly, beyond the set-up I have nothing.

I don't think the Order of Aurelius is ever mentioned again after season 1 of BtVS, is it? I suspect Joss forgot about its existence. I don't think he was big into giving vampire society any kind of organisation, despite the odd vampire duelling cult etc/charismatic figure like the Master. Which is fine. It means fanfic writers can fill in the gaps.

[ex_peasant441]

Isn't it great seeing everyone talking about the show :D

[shapinglight]

Yes, it's nice. Doing a rewatch does bring on lots of thoughts. :)

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

What an interesting discussion. It takes me back to when message boards and email groups were the places to discuss the show.

[shapinglight]

:)

I have more BtVS thoughts occasioned by the rewatch. I might write them up later.

[davesmusictank.livejournal.com]

Well i thought it was Darla that sired Angel, so it does get confusing with their mutual love /hate relationship.No pointers t help y0u here as i am doing a crossover Buffy Dr.Who fic.

[shapinglight]

It was. I don't think anyone is confused about that. ;)

There was some controversy (many years ago) about who sired Spike having been seemingly changed from Angel to Dru, that's all.