A writing Whinge (because I haven't done one of those for, oh, at least a week and a half)

[shapinglight]

to misquote Joyce from School Hard, and with further mention of various thoughts I've had during my BtVS rewatch.

And I would've put all of that in the title of my post, but LJ wouldn't let me.

Anyway, yes. I'm supposed to be writing something for seasonal_spuffy at the beginning of May, but have no ideas whatsoever. I suppose I should ask for prompts. Prompts, anyone?



I'm wondering when it was I became primarily a Spuffy writer (which has sort of happened by default, must admit, because even before the Buffy comics stomped all over the very idea, I didn't think Buffy meant the ILY in Chosen - not that she has to have meant it for people to be able to write Spuffy, but still...).

I think it must be down to sb_fag_ends as much as anything. I try (though I failed miserably last year) to produce at least one drabble or ficlet for the comm every month, and my fic ideas are so thin on the ground now that I don't have any left over for seasonal_spuffy.

:Gloom:

It's not just something for seasonal_spuffy I'm struggling with writing either. I had every intention of getting on with my abandoned Spangel story while S was away last weekend, but ended up writing a measly 1500 words that didn't advance the plot much at all.

I started the story in 2007 (I think). The part I'd already written had some bits and pieces of slashy stuff in it. I think I'm probably going to have to remove them wholesale.

This is because I'm finding it very difficult to even entertain the idea of Spangel these days, thanks to the comics showing the relationship between Spike and Angel as nine parts raging hatred and one part gay panic (on both their parts, but especially Spike's), not to mention when re-watching the Spike/Angel interaction in BtVS season 2 I couldn't for the life of me see where the dynamic between them, as so often written in old slash fics, ever came from in the first place.

There aren't many of the old slash writers around these days, and the ones that are're probably not on my flist, but if anyone has an opinion on the subject I would be quite interested to know what they think that dynamic was based on back in the day (you know, the sire/childe stuff, which I freely admit to enjoying a lot at one time, not to mention writing it myself). Was it based solely on the fact that Spike originally said Angel was his sire and people just took that and ran with it, and then people read their stories and a huge body of fanon developed which lots of people confused with canon, or what?

Returning to the subject of me not being able to write anything, sadly, much though I'd like to put it down to disillusionment with fanon tropes, I'm afraid it's far more down to me just being out of ideas. I can't work out how the plot of this Spangel fic should go forward to the end I envisaged for it (at least I do have an end envisaged), and generally writing is just all hard and stuff and makes my brain hurt. :(

:More gloom:

Comments

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

Spangel shippers took a few snippets from the show and ran with it. Pretty much the same as most other ships. I started out reading Spuffy. But then somewhere along the line I read my first Spangel fic, and that was it. It just felt more edgy to me. More intense. I also have a kink for the dominance/submission thing which fits very nicely with Spangel. It makes a difference to me that they share a history. Also a crucial part of the appeal is that they are both vampires. They both come from a vampire perspective and they do vampire things, and I find that fascinating.

But lately I find it more difficult to buy into. As far as canon, Spike was a thorn in Angel's side and nothing more. Angel was distasteful and uninspired according to Spike and never deserved what he got. (I can see that point).

I also agree with your opinion that Buffy did not mean the ILY in Chosen. I saw many scenes where she showed a special connection with Spike and where she really cared about him. But I don't think she loved him. (Spuffy isn't strictly canon either if it is about them being in love and holding hands.) Although there is certainly the possibility they met up after NFA and fell in love for real. I think Spike would have had a lot of growing up to do for that to happen. Buffy and Angel are canon... in all aspects, but I don't buy it. I reject the necessity of canon in any of this. I think the dynamic between any two characters in fan fiction is more about what speaks to the reader deep inside then what happened or didn't happen on the show. (How else do you explain the large Spander contingency?)

As far as Spuffy, there are so many places to take that relationship, and even though I am somewhat ambivalent about it, I understand it is probably the most important ship in the fandom. The glue that binds it all together. But I find myself less invested in fics that show them too much like what a human boyfriend and girlfriend would be. I find it hard to believe Spike would be housetrained for any length of time. So if you want a suggestion for your Spuffy fic, I would like to see something between a slayer and a vampire, sharing the moment but understanding the realities.

[shapinglight]

Spangel shippers took a few snippets from the show and ran with it. Pretty much the same as most other ships.

Oh, definitely. And I appreciate they got more than all the other 'shipping groups, including Spike's reference to the 'one time' he and Angel were intimate (not to mention the entirety of TGiQ and Angelus's OTT comments about doing bad stuff with 'another man' and being deviant from Destiny). I do wonder a lot where some of the 'trappings' of those early fics came from, though.

It makes a difference to me that they share a history.

It does to me too, which is why it annoys me so flipping much when the characters act as if they don't. Which, as you point out, they mostly do. In AtS season 5, Spike claims a familial relationship with Angel (grandsire) but Angel won't have it. Then the comics (or at least season 8 since Joss was still involved with them at that point) seem to make it pretty clear all they feel for each other is hatred. Though again it feels pretty one way. Angel hates Spike way more than Spike hates Angel. But even if you discount the comics (which many do, and I certainly don't consider them canon like the show), that's pretty much my prevailing impression.

Angel isn't Spike's sire. He doesn't care about him. In fact, he despises him and wants him gone. If that's what you think (which is pretty much what I think now)it's hard to 'ship them.

I think the dynamic between any two characters in fan fiction is more about what speaks to the reader deep inside then what happened or didn't happen on the show. (How else do you explain the large Spander contingency?)

This is all quite true, especially of Spander, a 'ship that will always remain a complete mystery to me.

But I find myself less invested in fics that show them too much like what a human boyfriend and girlfriend would be.

Me too, though I actually think that Spike is quite domesticated. And thank you for your suggestion. Did you ever read a fic I wrote for seasonal_spuffy called Last Dance? It's sorta, kinda what you said you'd like to see.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

Angel isn't Spike's sire. He doesn't care about him. In fact he despises him and wants him gone.

Ouch. But why? Why does he hate him so much? Because of Buffy? No I think it goes way beyond that. I think it goes way back to the beginning with them. And in some strange way this supports the Spangel narrative. I think part of the hatred is that Spike represents something Angel doesn't want to deal with.

Could I have a link please to your fic Last Dance? I can't seem to find it.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I found it on Dreamwidth:

http://seasonal-spuffy.dreamwidth.org/800580.html

Fantastic stuff. Owie.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

Thank you!! She's just so good, isn't she?

[shapinglight]

Ouch. But why? Why does he hate him so much? Because of Buffy? No I think it goes way beyond that. I think it goes way back to the beginning with them.

Latterly it has to do with Buffy, I suppose (though I have trouble believing that Angel ever saw Spike as a serious rival), but the Destiny flashbacks were supposed to show us that it went back right to when they met, and while they're fighting Spike actually accuses Angel of making him what he is, to which Angel responds that Spike was always a nasty piece of work, he just brought it out of him.

It could be there's truth in it, and Angel does feel responsible in some way for making Spike what he was when he was evil. But I just get no sense of liking on Angel's part even in the flashbacks. If he ever does come to like Spike or care about him, I feel now it will be more from what happens during future interaction rather than anything to do with the past.

Which doesn't invalidate your point, of course. I think a lot of my problem is, as rebcake posits below, that without any sense that Angel values Spike in some way I find it very difficult to write the 'ship.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Part of it is in what Angel doesn't do to Spike. Angel dusts Lawson, Penn and Darla without a single thought. He later sets Darla and Dru on fire. But he gets between Spike and danger multiple times. Their physical interaction is very familiar and they both have no personal bubble when it comes to the other.

As for the canon - Spike said that he and Angel were only intimate that one...... His voice dies off. He could say one time, or one weekend. Or he could say the rest of the time they were just shagging.

I guess I still see Spangel - Spangel from the past, at least. It's the view in part - we are seeing them together 2 years out of 120+. I see nuances, subtext, and some downright text that makes it clear that they had a relationship that was pretty complex and included sex I doubt there was ever romance, or there would be. But I think they would both be there for the other.



As for childe - it comes from a Byron poem. It was also the medieval name for the son of a lord who was not yet a knight. The term that seems to be used most often is 'boy' or 'girl'.

[shapinglight]

But he gets between Spike and danger multiple times.

For me, all instances of that happening that take place before Spike gets a soul are somewhat murky. Like there's always a good reason why Angel (or Buffy, for that matter) can't dust Spike. Such as, in Lovers' Walk, Spike has Xander and Willow prisoner, and in In the Dark Angel doesn't really get a chance. Spike gets away. But that's because he's a popular character and they don't want to just kill him off.

After Spike gets a soul, it would be pretty bad form of Angel to just up and kill him.

I actually don't have a problem with believing the two of them had a past, btw (which may, or may not, have involved lots of sex). It's believing that Angel cares about, or likes, Spike in the present I have trouble with. I guess I'm just got sick of Angel constantly calling Spike an idiot and Spike snarking back at him, that's all. It may be a typical brotherly/familial interaction in some ways, but a little of it goes a very long way for me.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Angel disregards Spike and even hates him until TGiQ. After that, I see no hate. I see a beginning of trust and friendship.

[shapinglight]

I dunno. Not long after that, we learn that Angel has been hiding a lot of stuff from his friends (and Spike) in order to set his crazy master plan in action. I'm afraid I don't see much trust there. Or friendship. Unless the fact that Angel lumps Spike in with his other friends in being not in the know counts as a sign of friendship?

I'd like to think otherwise. I really would. But I can't quite do it. In fact, I can do it better in the run of episodes from AHitW through to TGiQ than in the final ones. ;(

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

I see your point. As for the whole slash and Sire and Childe fandom I think that people saw two handsome men and just wanted to fantasize about them because there is absolutely nothing that suggests that they have the hots for each other. Well, maybe I do see a slight tremor of fascination on William's side the first time he meets Angelus. And Spike does say "Except that one..." but apart from that I see no chemistry or anything slashy at all. People see or hear what they want to hear and in Spangel's and Spander's place, they see a whole lot more than what there is.

But that said and done, I've read plenty of fully belieable post series slash fics and those that convince me are the best written stories I've encountered in this fandom. Because it's just so damn easy (in a way) to write believable Spuffy or Bangel fics. We can all imagine some sort of scenario where the two or three of them will end up one way or the other. But Xander??? or Angel and Spike??? No way. Which is why I like to read m/m fics or dabble in writing them myself.

That being said, I have read good Spuffy fics too. Unfortunately I'm severely allergic to the words claim and bond and Sire/childe. A lot of fics out there love those words which sadly make them totally unreadable to me.

[shapinglight]

As for the whole slash and Sire and Childe fandom I think that people saw two handsome men and just wanted to fantasize about them because there is absolutely nothing that suggests that they have the hots for each other. Well, maybe I do see a slight tremor of fascination on William's side the first time he meets Angelus. And Spike does say "Except that one..." but apart from that I see no chemistry or anything slashy at all.

I'd have to agree with this assessment. That one scene in Destiny with the holding the hand in the sunlight pissing contest is the only exception. I wish I could say otherwise, but where I've got to in my rewatch (early BtVS season 6, long past the season 2 scenes that got the Spangel 'ship afloat in the first place) I just can't see it.

I suppose you can extrapolate from the fact that they were vampires and didn't care about the norms of the society they lived in, that they might have experimented.

I've written a lot of Spangel fics, as you know, but it's been a while. Maybe, if I wanted to keep on writing them, I shouldn't have rewatched the show? ;)

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Ha, well I don't know about that. I still believe it could happen. But all good things concerning Spike will definitely have to take place post series.

Any slash going on during the series or pre series would have to be either abuse or a drunken mistake.

The series show us a very hateful Xander until the last few episodes regarding Spike. And Angel seems to loathe and distrust Spike but Spike never seems to hate Angel back. At least not nearly on a level with Angel's hate or disgust with Spike.

I can and will buy the idea of Spike being willing to accept and embrace love whenever and whereever it's from, as long as it's not from Harmony! And like I said, in my opinion romantic or intimate slash could happen post series which is why I still believe in it and write it, I guess.

[shapinglight]

And like I said, in my opinion romantic or intimate slash could happen post series which is why I still believe in it and write it, I guess.

I think Angel would need a personality transplant first. If I do manage to finish this story, he'll have had at least a partial one by the end of it, I think.

So tired of the dynamic as portrayed in my icon.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I read Last Dance. Loved it!! I'm going to be thinking about it all night now. Damn, you are so good!

[shapinglight]

I'm glad you liked it, love. I may have other stories you missed when you weren't around. Try checking my Glassdarkly account on Archive of our Own.

[rbfvid.livejournal.com]

About the comics... Even as I mostly agree about Angel&Spike in BtVS S8 and onwards (where it became much more about bangel vs spuffy, than about Angel and Spike). But there were some nice moments, too, mostly in After the Fall.
Some examples: AtF #5, AtF #14, AtF #17, Angel: Auld Lang Syne #5.

If you squint hard enough, you can interpret them as "Angel and Spike understand each other the way no one else can".
There were some moments (both in the series and in the comics) where it was hinted, that they could become close someday. If only Angel overcomes his insecurity and stops surrounding himself only with the people who perceive him as someone bigger and better than he considers himself to be. (The pattern that was probably set by his father and Darla. Or not.) In a way, Angel accepting Spike could equal Angel accepting himself, without all aggressive brooding and apocalypse-inducing attempts to save the world.

[shapinglight]

I agree there were some nice Spike/Angel moments in After the Fall, though I didn't always like the way Lynch wrote the dynamic. I felt he made Spike too much the junior partner, which I don't think he was by the end of AtS season 5. I did like Auld Lang Syne. The dynamic in that was a bit too antagonistic when it started, but ultimately struck me as more equal.

But if you go by the only interaction between them in comics penned by Joss (Buffy season 8 no 36), Angel seems to really dislike Spike and not to trust him at all. And of course being Joss he doesn't bother explaining any of it. I know A: AtF is regarded as canon (in as far as any of the comics are), but I think the only reason why that's the case is because Joss doesn't care enough about what Spike and Angel (especially Spike) were up to post-NFA to fill in the blanks himself. On the other hand, he's never going to fully endorse what Lynch wrote, which is why there's such a disconnect between what Spike and Angel were doing in A: AtF and what they (especially Angel) were doing in season 8.

I'm such a cynic these days. ;(

In a way, Angel accepting Spike could equal Angel accepting himself, without all aggressive brooding and apocalypse-inducing attempts to save the world.

I'd love to see that, but I don't think Joss is interested in writing it. When Angel crosses over to the Buffy comics in a month or two we're probably just going to get more juvenile sniping with eye-rolling off from Buffy.

I do hope I'm wrong. But I don't expect to be.

[rbfvid.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't expect much from Angel/Buffy crossover event either. The only question is will it be a complete "bangel vs spuffy" disaster or if there will be few actually funny lines.
(And I have a very tiny hope that they won't invent some silly new big bad, but somehow use Illyria... I'm too optimistic for my age, I know.)

[shapinglight]

I'm sorry to say but I think they're definitely going to invent a new big bad, something we've never heard of before which is going to be dropped into the story from a great height (like the seed of wonder in season 8) and never mind if it screws up previous continuity.