A writing Whinge (because I haven't done one of those for, oh, at least a week and a half)

[shapinglight]

to misquote Joyce from School Hard, and with further mention of various thoughts I've had during my BtVS rewatch.

And I would've put all of that in the title of my post, but LJ wouldn't let me.

Anyway, yes. I'm supposed to be writing something for seasonal_spuffy at the beginning of May, but have no ideas whatsoever. I suppose I should ask for prompts. Prompts, anyone?



I'm wondering when it was I became primarily a Spuffy writer (which has sort of happened by default, must admit, because even before the Buffy comics stomped all over the very idea, I didn't think Buffy meant the ILY in Chosen - not that she has to have meant it for people to be able to write Spuffy, but still...).

I think it must be down to sb_fag_ends as much as anything. I try (though I failed miserably last year) to produce at least one drabble or ficlet for the comm every month, and my fic ideas are so thin on the ground now that I don't have any left over for seasonal_spuffy.

:Gloom:

It's not just something for seasonal_spuffy I'm struggling with writing either. I had every intention of getting on with my abandoned Spangel story while S was away last weekend, but ended up writing a measly 1500 words that didn't advance the plot much at all.

I started the story in 2007 (I think). The part I'd already written had some bits and pieces of slashy stuff in it. I think I'm probably going to have to remove them wholesale.

This is because I'm finding it very difficult to even entertain the idea of Spangel these days, thanks to the comics showing the relationship between Spike and Angel as nine parts raging hatred and one part gay panic (on both their parts, but especially Spike's), not to mention when re-watching the Spike/Angel interaction in BtVS season 2 I couldn't for the life of me see where the dynamic between them, as so often written in old slash fics, ever came from in the first place.

There aren't many of the old slash writers around these days, and the ones that are're probably not on my flist, but if anyone has an opinion on the subject I would be quite interested to know what they think that dynamic was based on back in the day (you know, the sire/childe stuff, which I freely admit to enjoying a lot at one time, not to mention writing it myself). Was it based solely on the fact that Spike originally said Angel was his sire and people just took that and ran with it, and then people read their stories and a huge body of fanon developed which lots of people confused with canon, or what?

Returning to the subject of me not being able to write anything, sadly, much though I'd like to put it down to disillusionment with fanon tropes, I'm afraid it's far more down to me just being out of ideas. I can't work out how the plot of this Spangel fic should go forward to the end I envisaged for it (at least I do have an end envisaged), and generally writing is just all hard and stuff and makes my brain hurt. :(

:More gloom:

Comments

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I remember a lot of debates regarding Spike and Angel back in the day. Prior to Fool for Love, everyone believed that Angelus sired Spike. In fact that was heavily suggested in S2 in the subtext - that Spike and Dru were Angel's creations. And again in S1 Angel. In fact Spike sort of declares it in School Hard.

But Whedon retconned it in Fool for Love, most likely he forgot the speech in School Hard, and he figured people would fanwank the heck out of it. (They did - hence the debates.) Actually Fool for Love is controversial episode - because it basically killed a dozen allegedly canonical fanfics. Everyone, including James Marsters, believed Spike was originally some street punk that Angelus turned. I know fans who hated that episode because they declared it ruined Spike.
They were very wedded to what they thought was his back story based on S2-S4.

Later, it was clear there was a sibling rivalry between the two, and if you watched the final season of Angel, it appeared that the writers were writing Spike as Angel's love interest. Actually they were - that was the intent, albeit not in the sexual context (well depending on the writer). Whedon went so far as to piss off Marsters by calling him the ingenu - what he meant was that Spike was being introduced as the guy that Angel hates at the beginning but ends up closest to at the end. They are almost tied to the hip by the end of the Angel S5. It was the idea of the younger brother/older brother rivalry, but also at the end of day - deep caring and bond that crosses centuries. Heck, there's even a comment in one of episodes by Spike, to Illyria, oh no, we were never intimate, well except for that one time.

Plus Spike and Angel had excellent banter in S5. They fought like an old married couple.
Finishing each sentences. No one could push Angel's buttons better than Spike.

That season launched a dozen Spangel shippers. Heck, I shipped them after that season.
Although more in a brotherly context.

The slash romantic shipping happened during S2 - when Spike is in the wheel chair and Angelus kisses the top of his head. Also School Hard launched it.

As for Buffy's ILY in Chosen? That season was written so vaguely, you could interpret it multiple ways. I've argued it both ways. Actually I wrote a Spuffy fanfic entitled No Regrets that had the two characters discussing their relationship, Angel, and everything. They don't end up together. I think she loved him, for the record, the text and subtext arguably does support it. But not in a "I want to set up house and have kids with you" context. She knew they couldn't be together in that way. But she did love and trust him more than anyone else at that point, and said so more than once with actions and words. ("He's the only one who has my back" or "Your words gave me the courage I needed"). I mean, I haven't watched it since 2008, so my memory may be off. But having argued that one to death by now? I honestly think it can be interpreted multiple ways - because Whedon wrote it that way, and apparently there was some disagreement amongst the writers on whether she did or should or could ever love him - so it was written all over the map. They wrote her relationship with Angel equally vaguely - so it could be interpreted multiple ways. Resulting in lots of fun and ultimately pointless fan fights over it.

[Note - I don't consider the comics canon, and have chosen to ignore their existence.]

[rahirah]

Actually there was a magazine 'interview' with Spike and Drusilla published in late S2 where Spike said Drusilla was his sire, and what little he decribes of it doesn't contradict FFL. So that part seems to have been retconned pretty early, even if it never made it onto the show. (Spike being roughly 150 in that article also fits with the FFL turning date, which makes it really weird when he claims to be 126 in S4.) Interestingly, when asked about his human past in that interview, Spike refused to answer and just said it was "embarrassing."

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Weird, I remember him saying that he envisioned the character as a street punk and how Joss threw him with the script to Fool for Love.

Those articles often contradicted themselves. Although maybe I'm just misremembering? It's possible. I read so many interviews. I don't have the links to any of them though.

The show was fun to argue in part because people contradicted themselves constantly in interviews, etc. Marsters was notorious for it. He'd say something in one interview and the complete opposite in the next. Although he has been consistent about
OMWF, and to an extent on Spike's relationship with Dru. (I'm guessing that the writer's changed who sired Spike after What's My Line, when they decided to change the story arc. He may have initially been sired by Angel, but they changed their mind?
Or the comment was always meant in the "Yoda/mentor" sense of the word and not literally "my sire". No way of knowing for certain.
I just remember the fights over it - which were still going on in 2002.)

[rahirah]

I don't think Marsters wrote the replies in that one -- I saw a scan of the original magazine pages once, and I =think= the Spike & Dru content was credited to Joss. Entirely possible that Marsters never saw that article at all. Certainly a lot of the fans never seem to have heard of it. Besides that one, I don't ever remember seeing anything from the writers that was a definitive statement about Spike's past until FFL aired, but that doesn't mean there's nothing out there.

[shapinglight]

I remember that 'interview', and yes, I think Joss did write it. Some of the answers sound very Jossian.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Oh that's really interesting!

The numbers never do really add up, even when you try it with and without his human years. *sigh* Continuity buffs despair!

[shapinglight]

I think it had been retconned by the time of Lie To Me only a few episodes later. Angel tells Buffy all about how he sired Drusilla but he never mentions Spike at all. If he had, you'd think he would have said so, given that Spike and Dru came as a set, as it were.

[shapinglight]

In fact Spike sort of declares it in School Hard.

Yeah, he does, but I firmly believe that Joss never meant that to be more than Spike claiming Angel as his mentor. Or if it did, Joss had changed his mind as early as Lie To Me only a few episodes later. In that, Angel confesses to Buffy that he sired Drusilla and describes what he did to her at great length, but he never mentions Spike. I just feel that if he'd sired Spike too that would have been the moment he would have mentioned it. Likewise, in that episode he meets Dru and tells her to 'take Spike and leave Sunnydale' which comes across to me as him thinking Spike is far more Drusilla's responsibility than he is Angel's own. I dunno. I just think that if there was a retcon it happened a long time before FFL.

They were very wedded to what they thought was his back story based on S2-S4.

Yes, which, as a Brit, never made sense to me. I'd read all these people describing Spike as a 'Cockney' and wince. He doesn't sound Cockney at all.

Not that this figures either way, obviously. The show wasn't being made for Brits.

it appeared that the writers were writing Spike as Angel's love interest. Actually they were - that was the intent, albeit not in the sexual context (well depending on the writer).

Yeah, I do remember Joss (I think it was him) saying that Spike was the best 'love interest' Angel had ever had in the show, though I don't think he meant it literally (and also think it was a bit insulting to Charisma Carpenter).

Whedon went so far as to piss off Marsters by calling him the ingenu - what he meant was that Spike was being introduced as the guy that Angel hates at the beginning but ends up closest to at the end.

I don't think that's what Whedon meant by 'ingenue'. In theatrical terms, an ingenue is a female character who is endearingly innocent and wholesome (like Fred), which is why JM was so insulted to be called that. But I think Whedon probably meant that Spike was a naive outsider in the W&H set up.

Plus Spike and Angel had excellent banter in S5. They fought like an old married couple.

There are definitely elements of that later in the season. I love the scene at the beginning of AHitW where Spike has stuck a sword through Angel and Angel is complaining about it. Very funny.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do remember Joss (I think it was him) saying that Spike was the best 'love interest' Angel had ever had in the show, though I don't think he meant it literally (and also think it was a bit insulting to Charisma Carpenter).

Yeah, I think people tend to take writers' words a little too literally. I'm pretty sure I've heard one of them say S5 is a Buffy-Dawn love story. Obviously it was meant in the familial sense.

That was the vibe I always got from Spike and Angel up until S5, the heavily antagonistic brother thing. I have to agree the S5 stuff really came off as bone-throwing.

[shapinglight]

I have to agree the S5 stuff really came off as bone-throwing.

Oh, definitely. All of the Spike/Angel parts of TGiQ are bone throwing, though very enjoyable for all that.

Spike's 'that one time' comment does make the 'ship canon, though. I guess Joss thought it couldn't do any harm, given that the show was about to end.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think he's fine with stuff as long as he doesn't have to write it. See also: Spuffy post-S6.

Definitely just a gift to the fans which I don't mind. Maybe it's 'cause I still always see the author. I just think some fans go way overboard with analysis.

[shapinglight]

Oh definitely. I'm not so good with the whole Author is Dead thing either.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

My take: I'll stop taking the writer into account when they stop putting 'written by' on things. :P

[shapinglight]

Yeah, that works for me.