Hoist With My Own Trope
Jun. 21st, 2011 11:49 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shapinglightProbably not the right use of the word, but whatever. Further to my Game of Thrones post yesterday, I realised something last night. :sigh: It's happening again.
More behind cut with spoilers for Game of Thrones, BtVS and a very old sci-fi novel by CJ Cherryh called Serpent's Reach, should anyone care about that.
What happened was that I've realised I now have a favourite male character in the show. Well, I have several - Tyrion, Bronn and Sam Tarley are all big favourites - but my most favourite is one guaranteed to bring me nothing but misery. It's Jorah Mormont. And what clinched it for me was when Dany kissed him on the cheek, a gesture that expressed both her gratitude to him for being her protector and guide - being her knight, I suppose - and also implicit in the gesture, her knowledge that he's in love with her, though she doesn't - and never will - return his feelings.
At this point, many of you will probably be going eww! After all, Dany is young enough to be Jorah's daughter. That doesn't bother me, have to admit, especially as I know Jorah's love is doomed to remain unrequited. And it's the unrequited thing that bugs me about myself. I'm beginning to suspect I have a Thing for it - or rather, a Thing for always liking the morally dodgy male character who falls in love with the heroine and who is never loved in return. Ring any bells, does it?
And Spike isn't even the first. Long before him, there was this morally dodgy secondary character in the CJ Cherryh novel I mentioned, who was in love with the heroine and ended up dead fighting at her side, and sure enough he got one kiss from her as he lay dying so he could die happy. Because of course that's the real bugger of liking such characters - they nearly always end up dead.
Why, oh why, can't I learn to like the hero best? Liking Angel more than Spike would have saved me a lot of grief during the Buffy years. Even after the character has been so comprehensively trashed in the Buffy comic, I know intellectually that it's still more sensible to be more invested in Angel than Spike. Angel has his own comic. He'll pay for his sins a little, but ultimately he'll be a hero again (or we'll be supposed to view him as such). He may not get the girl (not the Jossian way, and Buffy's not just a prop to Angel's story), but he has a better chance than Spike, who will be lucky to get even fourth character billing (after Buffy, Xander and Willow) in the Buffy comic.
Likewise, letting myself get too invested in Jorah Mormont is a monumentally bad idea. I haven't read the books and don't know what happens to him (and please don't tell me if you do know), but I'm willing to bet he comes to a sticky end at some point. I just wonder if he'll get an 'I love you', 'No, you don't, but thanks for saying it' moment before he goes?
:grump, grouse:
Also, how annoying that I've just managed to amass a collection of GoT icons that I really like (though am still missing some, like a good Bronn/Tyrion one and one of Dany with the dragons) and the show ends. I shall probably end up putting them in storage because I want to upload some new True Blood or Misfits ones, and then uploading them again for season 2, only to find I want season 2 icons instead. Bother!
More behind cut with spoilers for Game of Thrones, BtVS and a very old sci-fi novel by CJ Cherryh called Serpent's Reach, should anyone care about that.
What happened was that I've realised I now have a favourite male character in the show. Well, I have several - Tyrion, Bronn and Sam Tarley are all big favourites - but my most favourite is one guaranteed to bring me nothing but misery. It's Jorah Mormont. And what clinched it for me was when Dany kissed him on the cheek, a gesture that expressed both her gratitude to him for being her protector and guide - being her knight, I suppose - and also implicit in the gesture, her knowledge that he's in love with her, though she doesn't - and never will - return his feelings.
At this point, many of you will probably be going eww! After all, Dany is young enough to be Jorah's daughter. That doesn't bother me, have to admit, especially as I know Jorah's love is doomed to remain unrequited. And it's the unrequited thing that bugs me about myself. I'm beginning to suspect I have a Thing for it - or rather, a Thing for always liking the morally dodgy male character who falls in love with the heroine and who is never loved in return. Ring any bells, does it?
And Spike isn't even the first. Long before him, there was this morally dodgy secondary character in the CJ Cherryh novel I mentioned, who was in love with the heroine and ended up dead fighting at her side, and sure enough he got one kiss from her as he lay dying so he could die happy. Because of course that's the real bugger of liking such characters - they nearly always end up dead.
Why, oh why, can't I learn to like the hero best? Liking Angel more than Spike would have saved me a lot of grief during the Buffy years. Even after the character has been so comprehensively trashed in the Buffy comic, I know intellectually that it's still more sensible to be more invested in Angel than Spike. Angel has his own comic. He'll pay for his sins a little, but ultimately he'll be a hero again (or we'll be supposed to view him as such). He may not get the girl (not the Jossian way, and Buffy's not just a prop to Angel's story), but he has a better chance than Spike, who will be lucky to get even fourth character billing (after Buffy, Xander and Willow) in the Buffy comic.
Likewise, letting myself get too invested in Jorah Mormont is a monumentally bad idea. I haven't read the books and don't know what happens to him (and please don't tell me if you do know), but I'm willing to bet he comes to a sticky end at some point. I just wonder if he'll get an 'I love you', 'No, you don't, but thanks for saying it' moment before he goes?
:grump, grouse:
Also, how annoying that I've just managed to amass a collection of GoT icons that I really like (though am still missing some, like a good Bronn/Tyrion one and one of Dany with the dragons) and the show ends. I shall probably end up putting them in storage because I want to upload some new True Blood or Misfits ones, and then uploading them again for season 2, only to find I want season 2 icons instead. Bother!
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:14 am (UTC)And here's some tumblr art:
by jonquille
by llenka
No comment on the Buffy/Spike-ness. ;-) And hey, you're doing better than me, I've been too lazy to even collect GoT icons.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:21 am (UTC)Because you think she loved him? I'm afraid everything in the Buffy comic said otherwise to me.
Lovely gifs. Thank you. I have an icon of the moment, though it's a bit dark (was a dark scene). Also, it moves so quickly it makes my eyes go funny.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:27 am (UTC)My favorite GoT characters are probably Dany and Tyrion so far, though. :)
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:29 am (UTC)Lovely icon! It makes me want to try my hand at making some, though I've just started teaching myself photoshop so no doubt it'd be no good. I'll get better eventually, I hope.
I was definitely hit with the shipping bug during this last episode when it came to Dany and Jorah. Their chemistry is so good. And frankly, I never liked Drogo and I never really understood why Dany liked him except for the fact that when she was with him she belonged to someone who'd treat her at least as a ~token~ equal or near enough. She had power over him and thus had power. I'm much happier with her realizing she actually has her own power -- not just power over a man -- when she walked through the fire and brought the dragons back to life.
Anyways, I love the power dynamic inversion with Dany and Jorah. And I don't really care about the age difference either. I think he's handsome and I've seen a bunch of other people tentatively shipping them. The art that's been posted on tumblr is definitely highlighting the romance.
Is it bad to say I'm really not sad that Drogo's dead? He was a really flat character to me.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:33 am (UTC)Hurrah for Sansa for finally finding her backbone.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:44 am (UTC)I like it, but would like it better if it moved more slowly. Good luck with the icon making.
Can't say I liked Drogo either. There wasn't really a lot to like. He was nasty, violent and really his affection for Dany was the only attractive quality he had (except for a really nice arse). I still find her evident love for him incomprehensible, though I do see that he played a very important part in her story. He made her want to empower herself so as to meet him on more equal terms, which she did do, but her position was still precarious, because his was too. The Dothraki don't seem to have a nice retirement package for ex-khals.
Anyways, I love the power dynamic inversion with Dany and Jorah
Yep. This is the thing that gets me every time. The power inversion is one of the main reasons why I love Buffy/Spike. I don't really want them to be 'equals' - or not entirely. I like that he looks up to her (I'm talking about the show here, of course. The comics are a different matter).
I think he's handsome and I've seen a bunch of other people tentatively shipping them.
I've seen one or two. We're all doomed to bitter disappointment, I fear.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:48 am (UTC)Love Martyrs? Is that what they're called? Makes sense, I suppose. :sigh: Yes, I'm a sucker for a redemption story, even though I'm very cynical about such things in RL.
As far as favourite characters go, I suppose I probably have to put Dany and Jorah in a separate box to the others, just as their story has been separated from the other stories. In the 'main' story, Tyrion is definitely my favourite character, and just for once, because he's obviously a main character, I'm fairly confident he won't die on me.
Or not till the very end anyway.
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Date: 2011-06-21 11:52 am (UTC)It's obviously quite a common thing. Maybe I can 'train' myself to always like the romantic lead best? Do you think that's possible? They're usuall so boring.
Hurrah for Sansa for finally finding her backbone.
Yes, she's had all her illusions comprehensively shattered, hasn't she, poor girl? I think ultimately Joffrey will be sorry for pissing her off, but I think retribution will probably be a long time coming.
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Date: 2011-06-21 12:14 pm (UTC)Though Angel did get more interesting when he got his own show and they let him be all petty and geeky. I dunno. Sometimes just having a lot of screen time will force a character to be developed. :P
But some characters seem immune.
(Also, I really like when pretty boys suffer, and unrequited love is suffering, you know. nom nom.)
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Date: 2011-06-21 12:16 pm (UTC)felt the same way about Spike/Buffy too, and gave up on the comics due to lack of consistency with the show.
you aren't alone, never like the hero best and am in love with unrequited love myself. someday we'll learn, right? *hugs*
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Date: 2011-06-21 12:47 pm (UTC)BLAHs with you. You're doubtless right. I've been wracking my brains all morning trying to think of a show where the hero is my favourite character and I can't think of a single one. Buffy comes closest (and if the main character is female it's slightly different, I think, because there are so few shows like that, especially genre shows), but she's the only one.
Though Angel did get more interesting when he got his own show and they let him be all petty and geeky.
Yes, he did. However, even in AtS, I found him boring when he was on his own. The character really needed the ensemble to bring out the best in him.
(Also, I really like when pretty boys suffer, and unrequited love is suffering, you know. nom nom.)
There is that, though I don't like them to suffer indefinitely, which is why it's so frustrating that they never, ever win.
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Date: 2011-06-21 12:50 pm (UTC):( Suspect that it's a fairly common malaise.
felt the same way about Spike/Buffy too, and gave up on the comics due to lack of consistency with the show.
I read them to the bitter end, though they broke my heart, to be honest. The only thing they didn't do was to trash Spike's character. But season 9 is going to be along soon so there's still time.
someday we'll learn, right? *hugs*
In my case, I highly doubt it. Am old and set in my ways. ;)
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Date: 2011-06-21 04:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-21 08:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-21 08:20 pm (UTC)Easy is for the mindless.
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Date: 2011-06-21 08:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-21 10:16 pm (UTC)My favorite character used to be Spider-Man. Until some moron in charge decided that he needed to be a 'loser' in order for people to relate to the character.
A true hero can be well rounded, inspiring and an awesome character.
There's nothing like a well written Captain America, Spider-Man, Cyclops, even Superman, when the writer uses him as more than just an icon.
The point is to give them humanity, as well as the qualities of a hero. And then give them internal storyline as well as external ones.
It's just that far too many writers take the easy way out and think that clichés are enough to build a character.
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Date: 2011-06-22 12:07 am (UTC)Also, unrequited love or forbidden love is powerful BECAUSE its nature doesn't allow its consummation (or makes that consummation deadly, or whatever.) Happy loving people are great in real life, but they don't really work so well onscreen (viz I find Jaime/Cersei a hundred times more compelling even with the eww factor than I do Ned and Catelyn who have a happy marriage and raise happy well-adjusted kids. They're great to see for a moment or two, because it's nice to know that they exist, but honestly, what would their homelife be to watch onscreen? Jon Snow is the only point of conflict between them, really. Whereas I could watch Cersei slap Jaime over and over again :P)
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Date: 2011-06-22 09:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 09:51 am (UTC)But the original Spiderman was written as a loser. Peter Parker was a nerd, way back in the 60s.
There's nothing like a well written Captain America, Spider-Man, Cyclops, even Superman, when the writer uses him as more than just an icon.
I've read a fairly decent short run of Captain America (by Peter David, I think), but it's a very rare writer who can make a character like that more than bland. As for Cyclops, I've been reading the X-Men since the 60s. Some people have written him better than others. Claremont wrote him okay. However, I think he's more interesting now than he's ever been, but that's more because he's now married to the extremely morally ambiguous Emma Frost. It gives him an edge he didn't have before.
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Date: 2011-06-22 10:00 am (UTC)There is that. Ned's fate makes it pretty clear no one is safe. However, Jorah is a very minor character really (not in my eyes, obviously, but I'm realistic enough to know he's very expendable) so I think he's probably in even more danger. GRRM may not be afraid to kill of major characters, but I'm surely he only does it when will have an impact. Sadly, I don't think Jorah is on that level. Jaime probably is, though. Lovely icon, btw. Is it one of yours?
I must confess that Iain Glen is considerably more attractive than the way Jorah is described in the books, and therefore I feel like he's a lot more likable on the show than he is in the books.
I think Iain Glen's perpetually world weary expression gives Jorah this sort of damaged intellectual surviving in a brutal world look that makes the character very attractive to me at least. How is he described in the book? And of course it wouldn't be the first time that a good actor has given a supposedly minor character more oomph! than he should have - in some people's eyes anyway.
I hope GRRM doesn't kill Jaime.
Also, unrequited love or forbidden love is powerful BECAUSE its nature doesn't allow its consummation (or makes that consummation deadly, or whatever.) True, and I agree about Ned/Catelyn vs Jaime/Cersei. The latter is always going to be more interesting if only because it's evil and bad and wrong. I did like Ned's interaction with Catelyn in the show, but it's noticeable they spent far more time apart than together and that somehow made their feelings for each other more genuine.
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Date: 2011-06-22 10:00 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 10:02 am (UTC)I do like animated icons, but for me they work better when they're used for comedy, like this one.
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Date: 2011-06-22 10:08 am (UTC)Well that's what he was. Until Joe Quesada and his ilk, decided that in order to make him more 'relatable' to the 'young reader'. he needed to be a total failure, who has little or no success at any part of his life. And not because the world is against him, but because he's so made of fail, because he's so damn stupid, that he screws up any chance at happiness he gets because he's just that brainless.
It's the difference between an underdog like Spike, and a complete moronic loser like say... Andrew on Buffy. (while taking out what little likeable traits Andrew might still have had left)
Just imagine someone taking Spike as written in that Harmony ep of Angel season five, and having that used as the baseline for the character in his every single appearance afterwards.
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Date: 2011-06-22 10:21 am (UTC)For example, on BtVS from s5 on, Spike was the hero to me, alongside Buffy, where I have a hard time giving even half as much of a damn about Angel.
Sometimes the show gets it right though, Duncan MacLeod on Highlander, Clark on Lois and Clark, Peter on White Collar, Derek Morgan on Criminal Minds, Dean Winchester on Supernatural, Merlin on well Merlin Sarah and John Connor on Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles... All these characters to me are the hero of their show, and they're my fave chars on the show. (though I'll admit that Dean's more of an anti-hero, but of the two Winchesters, he's still the hero of the two)
Being a hero doesn't make you dull, it's just when the writers forget to let those heroes get called on it, when they do something wrong. And then don't let the heroes make up for their mistakes, as if admitting that the hero can make mistakes somehow weakens them... that a character can get dull.
Protagonist privilege can ruin any character. The art of writing a good hero is to write them as a person first, and then surround them by people smart enough to see those mistakes and help them recognize those mistakes and grow from them.
Like, take John Connor on T:tscc, they showed us how far he had to go to grow into a hero, while giving him his mother and uncle as role models. You could clearly see why he was a hero, without them making him perfect. (unlike Smallville, who made Clark deeply flawed, yet never had him learn from his mistakes)
Heroes can be great characters, but the writers have to be brave enough to take them to interesting places and then be brave enough to let them change and become better people.
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Date: 2011-06-22 03:21 pm (UTC)Well, I can't say Angel didn't do most of those things on his own show, where he was more interesting. I still liked Wesley better, though.
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Date: 2011-06-22 03:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 04:06 pm (UTC)I mean, on paper, Wesley fits a lot of markers on what I like in a character, but whenever I see AD onscreen, playing him, I just get... bored.
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Date: 2011-06-22 04:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-22 05:20 pm (UTC)Actually, in the first novel, Jorah is far more present on the scene than Jaime is (Jaime's only in about 3-4 scenes total where he says something: The 'things I do for love'; Lannister family breakfast; a scene from the Hand's Tourney that was cut on the show; the attack on Ned; and the battle where he's captured by Robb.) It's just that Jaime tends to act, rather than react and his actions move the story forward very decisively. On the show, they definitely gave him a lot more to do, but in the books, Jorah is someone that you'd pay more attention to, because he's so key to Danaerys's story.
He is described as much more bear-like in the books, though - not fat, but kind of stocky and solid and black-haired and he sounds like his back is probably hairy :P Not nearly as attractive as lithe, handsome Iain Glen :P
I hope GRRM doesn't kill Jaime.
I hope so too, but I think it's definitely happening. Just hopefully not until much, much later in the series. (Yes, the icon's mine - all my show icons are ones I did. And speaking of, if you want this one, please feel free:
The latter is always going to be more interesting if only because it's evil and bad and wrong. I did like Ned's interaction with Catelyn in the show, but it's noticeable they spent far more time apart than together and that somehow made their feelings for each other more genuine.
Yeah, I truly believe that Ned and Catelyn love each other deeply, and that they had years of happy marriage behind them after a rocky start. That's why I got all teary-eyed when they were saying good-bye in King's Landing, since I knew that they'd never see each other again :(
But Jaime and Cersei has this intense passion (at least on Jaime's side.) He will - literally - do anything for her. And while those things are often evil and bad and wrong, there's something compelling about such passion and loyalty.
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Date: 2011-06-22 09:24 pm (UTC)He is described as much more bear-like in the books, though - not fat, but kind of stocky and solid and black-haired and he sounds like his back is probably hairy :P Not nearly as attractive as lithe, handsome Iain Glen :P
Yes, I was saying to
I hope so too, but I think it's definitely happening. Just hopefully not until much, much later in the series.
:( Do you have any idea who you think might survive to the end - if anyone?
That's why I got all teary-eyed when they were saying good-bye in King's Landing, since I knew that they'd never see each other again :(
Wouldn't surprise me if it made me cry too when I watch it again. Which I hope to as soon as possible. As for Jaime and Cersei, I agree that such devotion is very attractive, even in a bad, wrong relationship. It would be even more attractive if one could feel that Cersei was deserving of it. As it stands in the show, she might be, but everything I've seen people say about her from the books suggests that ultimately she won't be.
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Date: 2011-06-23 06:54 pm (UTC):sigh: I'm really onto a loser with this 'ship, I know, but I can't help it. I just love them.
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Date: 2011-06-23 07:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-06-23 07:33 pm (UTC)As it turns out, it seems this 'ship is pretty popular with show only people. Of course, that doesn't make us any less doomed.
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Date: 2011-07-05 02:11 am (UTC)Oh yea! Very much so!!
I saw your entry in the Dany/Jorah comm's friending meme, and was already going to ask if I could add you, but when I saw this post from you, I knew I definitely had to ask to add you!
Because I posted just about the same thing in my own LJ a few days ago (although a bit less articulately than you just did), as I had a light-bulb moment myself about being hopelessly attracted to these kinds of one sided 'ships.
I used to be into BtVS/Angel in a major way too, and my main 'ship was Spike/Buffy.
I also was heavily invested in BSG fandom and the Roslin/Zarek 'ship.
Buffy/Spike, Roslin/Zarek, Daenerys/Jorah -- they all have morally dodgy men hopelessly in love with strong women who will never love them back.
My own post is here:
http://theladylucilla.livejournal.com/109189.html
Ok if I friend you? I've looked over some of your other posts and I think we have a lot in common.
True Blood for example. I'm still in post-GoT withdrawl, but the return of True Blood is helping ease the pain a bit.
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Date: 2011-07-05 06:18 pm (UTC)Dany/Jorah and Buffy/Spike are quite tame and vanilla in comparison. ;)
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Date: 2011-07-05 11:15 pm (UTC)Yea, Kara/Leoben was a pretty twisted, although I could see that pairing too. ;-)
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Date: 2011-07-06 11:18 am (UTC)