Game of Thrones ep 4

[shapinglight]

I know I'm pretty much talking to myself here, but I re-watched GoT ep 4.

Spoilery thoughts within



Lots of us moaned off about how many sexposition scenes featuring Ros there were in Game of Thrones. Happily, I've yet to encounter a single one of them. That said, there is a sort of sexposition scene in this ep, with Viserys, Doreah, a bath and lots of candles. However, no one was actually naked. In fact, it's rather a good scene - very atmospheric, with Viserys's story of the dragons' skulls and how he knew all their names - that, rather than providing exposition on What Is Going On, adds colour and background to the story, at the same time as illuminating Viserys's character, in both what he says and does.

The actor playing Viserys really is very good indeed. Still not sure I'm quite clear on what exactly Doreah did to offend him so mightily, though. Anyone care to explain? The other Dany scenes are mostly bound up with her changing perspective of Viserys. She is beginning to enjoy her new life, with its new status and power by proxy. Viserys keeps mocking it and calling her new people savages. By the end of the episode, not only has the worm thoroughly and completely turned when she strikes back at Viserys for daring to hit her (he's so astonished he can only stare in bewilderment), but she's had a little talk with Jorah (yes, it is one of my favourite scenes in the ep, why do you ask?), stated her own view that Viserys isn't fit to be king, and had him endorse that view entirely. She also shows a flash of the steel that will get her through what is to come when she tells Jorah, she, too, wants to go home.

Meanwhile, in Westeros, there's another very good exposition scene between Tyrion and Theon Greyjoy, that manages to give us a little history lesson and explain why Theon is in Winterfell all without a single glimpse of Ros. She does get mentioned, though - twice, in fact. It seems Jon Snow is one of the very few people who've resisted her overstated charms, much to Sam Tarley's disbelief.

Not that the episode is all exposition. Quite the opposite. It's pretty action packed, with important scenes for Jon and his new companions on the Wall (that Ser Alliser is a right laugh, isn't he?). Jon is beginning to form a band of friends around him that will stand him in good stead later on. He and Sam also learn - courtesy of that joker, Ser Alliser - that things may be grim oop north in Winterfell, but they're even grimmer oop norther on the other side of the Wall.

Meanwhile, in Kingslanding, Ned turns detective. Ned really should not turn detective, he's no good at it. All right, so he tracks down Robert's bastard, but by the end of the episode, three of the sneakiest people in Kingslanding - Pycelle, Baelish and Cersei - know what he's about. And probably Varys knows too, though we don't get his perspective on it. Baelish is even quite honest with Ned, secure in the knowledge that he won't be believed, when he tells him that deciding not to trust him was the best thing he's done since coming to Kingslanding. If only, Ned. If only. Cersei, meanwhile, actually tries to give Ned a get out clause, coming to his room to try and make peace, but Ned being Ned, doesn't take the hint any more than he took it from Jaime. Probably, he's incapable of taking it, though it should be obvious even to Ned - and in fact is, I think- that Robert is not a real friend. Not one who cares enough to stop Ned getting himself into a world of trouble. Certainly not worth putting his daughters in danger for.

Arya and Sansa continue with their respective lessons. Sansa learns more than she probably wanted to learn about Sandor Clegane, and Ned realises that he doesn't understand the daughter he understands nearly as well as he thought he did. And there's rather a lot of blood, which again I couldn't watch.

And then there's that wonderful scene in the inn at the end, where Catelyn makes a citizens' arrest of Tyrion Lannister and starts a war. And all because she, too, trusted Baelish. I think I'm sensing a theme here.

Great episode, which introduces two of my favourite characters in the show, Sam Tarley and Bronn. Yay, Bronn! Still enjoying this enormously. In fact, it's way better on second viewing.

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

:) I'm glad you're enjoying it so much, I think I'll have a rewatch soon once the X-ray crystallography seminar from hell is over.

I loved that episode because the theme of the title is played with so nicely from all sorts of perspectives. I think it's these symmetries between the individual stories where the show really does a great job.

I agree about the Viserys actor, I also loved him in the scarecrow ep in season 3 doctor who. I knew he'd be perfect when I read he was cast.

Also I wonder if Eccleston will really be Stannis in season two.

[shapinglight]

I'm glad you're enjoying it so much, I think I'll have a rewatch soon once the X-ray crystallography seminar from hell is over.

It definitely repays repeat watching. I missed so much the first time. :wishes the seminar from hell over soon, so you can come and talk more:

I loved that episode because the theme of the title is played with so nicely from all sorts of perspectives. I think it's these symmetries between the individual stories where the show really does a great job.

I agree. And now I think about it, there are parallels between Ned's and Viserys's respective cluelessnesses. Neither is equipped to play the game and they both end up dead. Interesting.

Also I wonder if Eccleston will really be Stannis in season two.

Are there rumours to that effect?

[laisserais]

I would like to know if anything ends up coming of Ned's discovery of the bastards. I have a theory that Jon Snow is also Robert's bastard, but can't be arsed to find out. Also, have decided not to try and read the books. It reads like bad fanfic, full of 'the older man' and 'the blue-eyed boy' blech.

[shapinglight]

I would like to know if anything ends up coming of Ned's discovery of the bastards

I'm sure something will. It seems too big a plot point to be left hanging. I've seen various theories about Jon Snow's origins, including that he's part Targaryen, but I suppose it may well be one of the things GRRM doesn't reveal until the end of the series.

I bought myself the first book and am going to try and read it, so I'll let you know what I think. It is true that since beginning to write fanfic myself, my tolerance for poor writing has lessened, so if that is the level of quality I may not get on that well with them. :(

I have read a few things by GRRM but it was a very long time ago and I don't remember much about them.

God, that scene in your icon is just so good. I almost can't wait to get to the end of my rewatch so I can watch it again.

[laisserais]

that scene in your icon is just so good EEE! I know! Gah, I spent far too much time trying to find the perfect cap of that scene. It still gives me shivers. Dany's arc is actually the only thing so far that has sparked my curiosity enough to want to read the book. Like, her transformation was so unexpected and so real that I'm really kind of dying to know how Martin wrote it - it's just that good.

But it's not enough, I'm afraid. Also, knowing that there's what? like 900k pages ahead of me. It's daunting. I'd rather read fanfic. ;)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I keep hoping Uni will get less stressful but it keeps coming up with new stuff, still I hope that the next two weeks will be better and I will have more time to rewatch and also to read.

Did I mention how much you're going to love season two? Tyrion is so amazing! The scenes with him and Varys are pure gold.

Neither is equipped to play the game and they both end up dead. Interesting.


I think it's that Syrio lesson about seeing with your eyes that they don't get. Neither of them takes a real close look at reality. Both of them are somewhat lost in their concepts of power and honour respectively.

Are there rumours to that effect?

He has been cast. But it has not been said as who yet. There are several roles that would make sense.

[shapinglight]

Dany's arc is actually the only thing so far that has sparked my curiosity enough to want to read the book. Like, her transformation was so unexpected and so real that I'm really kind of dying to know how Martin wrote it - it's just that good.

I agree, though must say most book readers I've come across haven't liked her story much in the books. Or rather haven't found it as well realised as the rest of it.

I'm interested in Jon Snow too - not so much because I like the character, because he's not particularly interesting, but more because I like all the creepy goings on at the Wall, and I like the band of brothers thing he has going on with Sam and the other outcasts.

[shapinglight]

I keep hoping Uni will get less stressful but it keeps coming up with new stuff

:(

I'm sure I'll love season 2. I just wish it wasn't quite such a long wait for it. And you're right about Ned and Viserys. They cling to notions that blind them to reality and don't realise their danger until it's too late. In Viserys's case that only affected him, but in Ned's it's had appalling consequences.

He has been cast. But it has not been said as who yet. There are several roles that would make sense.

Ooh, I'm missing all this. Where did you read it? On the official website or elsewhere?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think I read it on television without pity. They have a pretty active Game of thrones board.

[shapinglight]

Ah, okay. Not a site I ever frequent.

[kathyh]

I know I'm pretty much talking to myself here

No, I'm reading but I can't comment because I've got one more episode of the series to watch and I've read the books (though my memory of the first two is getting hazy) so I don't want to inadvertently spoil you.

The actor playing Viserys really is very good indeed.

He is. He managed to put across a great deal about Viserys without all that many scenes in which to do it. He's one of the actors (and there are a great many of them) who seem to have made their character step straight out of the pages of the books.

Ned really should not turn detective, he's no good at it.

It didn't take long for me to remember that I spent a lot of the first book yelling "don't do it" at Ned! Although Sean Bean doesn't physically match the Ned I have in my head he did a great job of putting across Ned's essential decency and complete lack of any ability to deal with anyone with any kind of guile. He was woefully unsuited for life in King's Landing and Robert really should have known that.

In fact, it's way better on second viewing.

I'm looking forward to watching it again. They've done a better job than I would ever have thought possible in getting the book onto the screen.

[laisserais]

yeah, true, Jon Snow and the wall is interesting. Mostly because I'm SO anxious of what's going to come over it! Although I will say this for Martin: so far he has subverted every single one of my narrative expectations, so. If they're building up the white walkers and then they turn out to be punks? I will be depressed.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was rewatching some of the episodes myself this weekend. The series really is quite good in places and very compelling.

Ned really should not turn detective, he's no good at it.

So true. LOL!.

And all because she, too, trusted Baelish. I think I'm sensing a theme here.

She also is making the mistake of trusting her sister...actually that's a huge theme with the Stark's that they always place their trust in the wrong people or base it on surface appearances, completely oblivious to the agendas underneath. Ned's biggest mistake was trusting Robert and Catelynn's take on Baelish.

Harold Lloyd - I think that's his name, is playing Viserys. He was also apparently on Robin Hood - the BBC tv series. Not that I really watched it.

Ned a get out clause, coming to his room to try and make peace, but Ned being Ned, doesn't take the hint any more than he took it from Jaime. Probably, he's incapable of taking it, though it should be obvious even to Ned - and in fact is, I think- that Robert is not a real friend.

IT does make sense why Ned can't take it. Their past history plagues all of them. He trusts Robert because of past history, and he distrusts the Lannisters based purely on past history. And both have earned that.
And Ned's own code of honor and somewhat niave view of how the world should be ...may well be in direct conflict.

Regarding Eccleston casting? I got that from shipperx. She apparently got it from EW.com - which has been tracking casting on everything, including the Hunger Games. He's been cast - the possibilities are three roles, two whose names have not been mentioned. My guess is Stannis - Eccleston looks like the actor playing Renly and Mark Addy, and has the look of the character as described in the books.

I have hopes they'll keep going and cast David Tennant, Jamie Bamber, and
Dame Judith Dench...along with Alex Kingston for some up and coming roles.
If they keep going with the British character actor thing - this could be fun. There's a cast of over 500 after all. And all are juicy roles.

This was a series just begging to be filmed.

I may end up buying the DVDs. Although like you - I have troubles watching some of the gory scenes, and could do without the Roz sequences. HBO sex scenes still feel a bit - male oriented. Even on True Blood.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I'm actually in the midst of reading the books and while I fully agree the prose is... mediocre a lot of the time, it eventually fades into the background.

The real challenge I have is that I start getting bored with certain character POVs: give me a Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya, or Jaime chapter and I'm all set. Give me a Bran chapter and I'm skimming like mad to get to the end of it (and I'll admit, I get bored during the Jon Snow chapters because of the character and how he filters the happenings).

I'm surprised it's been said Dany's arc in the books isn't well-realized because that's my favorite part of the books. Every Dany chapter is wonderful.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I haven't been commenting much, but I've been reading your posts as you rewatch and really enjoying them!

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I've noticed your enthusiasm about this series, I'm glad you're having a great time watching/rewatching.:)
I've seen the first season myself, overall appreciated it and thought it was very entertaining even if it was often too dark for my tastes ( it comes with the way this universe was created by the author, I suppose ). On the whole I'm afraid the story is a bit too depressing and I give up ( some spoilers had a bad effect on me )
I get why people are attracted to it still; it's good TV, and the acting is great.

[laisserais]

Cool! I really want to spoiler myself for what happens to Dany. Maybe I will. ;)

With regard to the 'POV' of chapters: this is what drives me crazy! Martin might say it's coming from a given character's POV, but it's pretty clear--within the first 10 pages--that he has no concept of what POV even means. :/

[shapinglight]

so far he has subverted every single one of my narrative expectations, so. If they're building up the white walkers and then they turn out to be punks? I will be depressed.

I'm reasonably certain they'll turn out to be pretty scary. The prologue in the first episode of the show was certainly very menacing.

As a matter of interest, which of your narrative expectations have been subverted? I would like to do the same thing, but unfortunately I got spoilered enough to know that both Ned and Khal Drogo would die, so I don't know whether those expectations were subverted or not. I definitely didn't expect Dany's son to die at birth, though. I thought she would be like a mirror to Cersei, with all her ambition focused through her children.

[shapinglight]

but it's pretty clear--within the first 10 pages--that he has no concept of what POV even means. :/

Oh dear! That bad?

[shapinglight]

No, I'm reading but I can't comment because I've got one more episode of the series to watch and I've read the books (though my memory of the first two is getting hazy) so I don't want to inadvertently spoil you.

:) That's kind of you. I hope you enjoy the last episode. I thought it was terrific.

He managed to put across a great deal about Viserys without all that many scenes in which to do it. He's one of the actors (and there are a great many of them) who seem to have made their character step straight out of the pages of the books.

I think all the actors have been outstanding - not one poor performance between them in such a huge cast.

It didn't take long for me to remember that I spent a lot of the first book yelling "don't do it" at Ned!

The number of times I've yelled that at the screen. Poor old Ned!

[shapinglight]

actually that's a huge theme with the Stark's that they always place their trust in the wrong people or base it on surface appearances, completely oblivious to the agendas underneath. Ned's biggest mistake was trusting Robert and Catelynn's take on Baelish.

Yes, Ned and Catelyn are a right pair really. Not just trusting the wrong people, but jumping to daft conclusions. As Tyrion rightly points out to Cat in the next episode (I think) if he'd wanted Bran dead the last thing he would have done is give the assassin his own dagger. That's just so obvious I'm astonished she had to have it pointed out to her.

My guess is Stannis - Eccleston looks like the actor playing Renly and Mark Addy, and has the look of the character as described in the books.

Hmm, I actually don't think he looks much like either of them, whereas they do bear a resemblance to each other. Eccleston's features are far more angular, and he has blue eyes, I think, whereas the other two have brown eyes (not 100% sure of that).

I don't think I'd like to see David Tennant or Judi Dench turn up in the show (their faces are too familiar over here in other roles), but Jamie Bamber and Alex Kingston could be good fits.

HBO sex scenes still feel a bit - male oriented. Even on True Blood.

I agree. There's an awful lot more female nudity, or half-nudity. Besides a man taking his shirt off just doesn't compare to a woman taking off hers.

[shapinglight]

:) Thanks. It'll probably be a while before I get the chance to watch another.

[shapinglight]

I've noticed your enthusiasm about this series, I'm glad you're having a great time watching/rewatching.:)

It's the first time since BtVS that I've felt like this about a show. I've loved other shows, but I can tell this is different.

You're right of course that it is very dark, but I just love it. Or I do until they make Jorah Mormont try to rape Dany.

[laisserais]

As a matter of interest, which of your narrative expectations have been subverted?

Um, let's see: since he was such a twat, I expected Viserys (sp?) to live a long and prosperous life, terrorizing his sister. I expected him to march into King's Landing at the head of the 'savages.'

I expected Ned Stark to keep bumbling his way into and out of political intrigue.

I expected Dany to give birth to the world-conquering baby, and for Drogo to kill what's his face, the traitor guy. Jorah?

I expected the revelation of Jamie/Cersei and chaos to erupt there. I was expecting Littlefinger to support Ned for what's her face's sake.

Yeah, I don't know, there were so many twists that I wasn't expecting! I wasn't expecting the kid to get tossed from the top of the tower, either. It's almost like he takes pleasure in setting up tropes just to knock them down. Which, in its own way, I suppose, is a form of narrative expectation I can rely on. Next season, I will expect the unexpected.

[laisserais]

lol it's not 'chocolate orbs' bad, but it's close. Or maybe I just have a lower tolerance for POV wandering, since I've come to fandom. Even though it's a pro-fic writer's prerogative to use 3rd omniscient, I can barely stand it anymore. Let alone the (many) examples where it's clear that the writer has never even heard of the concept of POV. [*cough* Twilight, Sookie Stackhouse *cough*]

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I agree. There's an awful lot more female nudity, or half-nudity. Besides a man taking his shirt off just doesn't compare to a woman taking off hers.

The Omar/McNulty commentary on the Wire - really underlined it for me. They kept mentioning all the gratuitous breast shots. And I realized - yep, just about every other episode. And I thought about Sopranos? Same deal. Also was true on True Blood. I will give Game of Thrones credit in one thing - that is not true about any of the others...it actually does show the male penis on occasion. Although not necessarily in a, shall we say, admirable light? I'm guessing those sets are either cold or the guys just aren't turned on. Felt very sorry for the naked actor drug behind Dany's horse.

Hmm, I actually don't think he looks much like either of them, whereas they do bear a resemblance to each other. Eccleston's features are far more angular, and he has blue eyes, I think, whereas the other two have brown eyes (not 100% sure of that).

Okay, my memory of Eccleston is admittedly scant. In my head he had brown eyes.

You may be right. Although...Dany and Viserys are described as white blond with purple eyes in the books, the actors obviously wore wigs, they gave up on the purple eyes. Also Cersei is blond and blue-eyed in the books, here, she wears a blond wig and keeps her brown eyes.

Yes, Ned and Catelyn are a right pair really. Not just trusting the wrong people, but jumping to daft conclusions. As Tyrion rightly points out to Cat in the next episode (I think) if he'd wanted Bran dead the last thing he would have done is give the assassin his own dagger. That's just so obvious I'm astonished she had to have it pointed out to her.

Yep. Neither are very good at deductive reasoning. And their prejudices show - they hated the Lannisters prior to the Lannisters arrival in Kingslanding. They both let emotion rule them, unfortunately. I felt a bit more sympathy for Catelynn though - if that had been my kid? I'd be a basket case and far from thinking clearly.

[shapinglight]

Even though it's a pro-fic writer's prerogative to use 3rd omniscient, I can barely stand it anymore.

I've never been able to get the hang of writing 3rd person omniscient. I feel too distanced from the characters. I can see how it would work in these big, sprawling epics, but it does rather lend itself to being very exposition-heavy. Which, IMO, makes the TV show's achievements even more impressive, because they've had to deal with conveying all that information without having an omniscient narrator. I think now that maybe the Ros scenes were just them trying to take short cuts.

[shapinglight]

I expected him to march into King's Landing at the head of the 'savages.'

I don't know if I expected anything of Viserys. It's certainly struck me on rewatching what a weak man he is, so the only way I could see him ever marching on Kingslanding with the Dothraki is as a sort of figurehead, with Khal Drogo as the real leader, and now I've seen the whole series even that seems a bit unlikely.

I know Drogo vowed to take the iron throne back for Dany, but I'm very unconvinced that he could ever have done it.

I expected Dany to give birth to the world-conquering baby, and for Drogo to kill what's his face, the traitor guy. Jorah?

Yeah, so glad that didn't happen.

Next season, I will expect the unexpected.

Yes, there are very few characters I feel safe saying they definitely won't die.

[shapinglight]

Also was true on True Blood. I will give Game of Thrones credit in one thing - that is not true about any of the others...it actually does show the male penis on occasion. Although not necessarily in a, shall we say, admirable light?

Yes, I don't think our brief glimpse of Hodor's penis compares with Ros taking her top off every two seconds (or that's how it feels) any more than Sam from TB walking around shirtless compares with the new character, Luna, walking around without hers.

I felt a bit more sympathy for Catelynn though - if that had been my kid? I'd be a basket case and far from thinking clearly.

Well, same here of course.