Game of Thrones Season 4 Ep 10 (the clueless about the books POV)

[shapinglight]

Just watched this and...

Spoilers behind cut



...um...er...I'm not really sure what to think.

Definitely a game changer for sure, if not in quite such a shocking way as the Red Wedding. But that's been true of the season as a whole really. Old certainties breaking down.

We've had three seasons of Joffrey as king, with Tywin as an eminence grise in the background, three seasons of Sansa trapped in Kingslanding, and Arya's painful wanderings around Westeros. Also three seasons of Dany and her dragons, and with Jorah Mormont as her right hand man. And of course Tyrion as the snarky outsider of the Lannister clan, not accepted (except by Jaime), but, as Tywin said (and I still don't know if he meant it) still one of them, and with Bronn as his shadow.

All those things have changed. Even more recent allegiances, like Arya's with the Hound, are over. I don't know why she wouldn't kill him. If it was just revenge, why didn't she stay and watch him die?

I dunno. Anyway, it seems half the most important remaining members of the cast (Arya, Tyrion, Varys) have fled to Braavos, or thereabouts, and I've no idea what might happen to the other half (I mean Brienne and Sansa, principally, I suppose Jaime and Cersei will just stay in Kingslanding with Cersei as regent for Tommen), though have to say it does rather look like Jon Snow has had the misfortune to catch the eye of Melisandre. Obviously, she sees something in him. I wonder what it is?

Speaking of Melisandre and Stannis, Stannis's cavalry charge beyond the Wall was very well done. I do wonder, though, how he managed to get that enormous army past the horrible Boltons. Aren't they supposed to be in charge of the North (or the south of the North, at least). Is Bolton Snr playing both sides against the middle again?

Also, I waited all season for Walder Frey to get his comeuppance and it hasn't happened yet. Am I doomed to be disappointed?

For that matter, how does what happened in this episode compare with what happened in the books at this point? Is the same at all, or radically changed?

Anyway, best bits, the Hound/Brienne fight (though I kind of like both of them, and didn't want either of them to die), all the stuff at the beginning with Stannis arriving at the Wall and everyone continuing to be horribly Northern and dour, and Bran and his companions finding the Magic Faraway Tree.

Actually, no, apart from the living skeleton fight (totally ripped off from Jason and the Argonauts), all that stuff with the fairies or whatever they were, and Treebeard was a bit hokey.

I did like the final scene of Arya running to the bow of the vessel and putting Westeros behind her.

I didn't at all like Tyrion's actions. I understand he was upset with Shae and with Tywin (and with Tywin/Shae), but all the same...

Also, you'd think someone would have the decency to say something sad about Oberyn.

Oh, anyway. Next season will be very different, for sure.

I'm going to miss Tywin.

I haven't mentioned Dany, because I haven't a lot to say. She's queen of Meereen, doesn't seem to regret Jorah being gone, and her dragons are acting up, but all I can really think of is that I thought the black dragon was called Drakaeris, not Drogon.

Or is 'drakaeris' just a general word meaning 'dragon'?

:Drums fingers on table top until next April:

Comments

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

It sounds pretty close to the book, except that the Hound doesn't fight Brienne, but some other minor character. Did Arya use her coin to get on the ship? What happened to Jon?

Next season will be strange, because Jon, Dany and Tyrion don't appear in book 4, and I wonder if they will find some way to combine books 4 & 5.

'Dracarys' means 'dragon fire' in High Valyrian (or 'burn them to a crisp' :-) She named the black one after Drogo, and he has a much stronger bond with her than the others have.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Also, I waited all season for Walder Frey to get his comeuppance and it hasn't happened yet. Am I doomed to be disappointed?

Nope.

Though how they get there from here is a question. There's stuff they've skipped that either they're going to have to place in later or go a different route to get there.

For that matter, how does what happened in this episode compare with what happened in the books at this point? Is the same at all, or radically changed?

They changed the dynamic of Tyrion/Jaime and they left out part of the Tyrion/Tywin scene. In the book Jaime rescues Tyrion but confesses that way back when, he'd lied to Tyrion about Tyrion's first wife Tysha (the story that Tyrion told Bronn and Shae about, the girl Tyrion met, fell in love with and married only for Tywin to have Jaime reveal was a prostitute that Jaime had hired to take Tyrion's virginity, the prostitute that Tywin had gang raped.) Jaime confesses that he lied. Tysha was exactly what she had seemed to Tyrion. Tywin didn't want a Lannister married to her and so had made Jaime lie about her being a prostitute. This confession severed the bond between Jaime/Tyrion... whereas in the show, you'd think that Tyrion will end up loving Jaime more than ever.

In the book Shae is also far more mercenary from the beginning. Book!Shae was only what she was. She had never loved Tyrion. It was all business to her. She was found in Tywin's bed and Tyrion did kill her though. And, no, she never deserved to be murdered (most everything else was the same. She did testify against Tyrion in the trial for his life, and she was in Tywin's bed). Tywin mocked Tyrion about Tysha being a 'whore' in the book (when he's confronted about the gang rape and Tysha having been an innocent girl). And Tyrion murdered Tywin as much over Tysha as the rest. Tywin had innocent Tysha gang raped (to death{?}) by a ghastly number of men. That part was left out of the show. I never had an iota of pity for Tywin's death. He deserved to die, and die horribly. I totally HATED Book!Tywin. (The Tysha backstory was horrific... but I can see how it's somewhat out of left field for the show since they only had Tyrion mention her once in Season 1 so I sort of understand why it was skipped).

Anyway, best bits, the Hound/Brienne fight (though I kind of like both of them, and didn't want either of them to die),
Didn't happen in the book but was a great addition (The Hound was dying more because of more random people than Brienne).

And Arya leaving him was always somewhat ambiguous. In the book it was more obvious that he was on her list of people to kill. So her choosing to NOT kill him was a statement... or what is ambiguous. That she was truly merciless or that she refused to take his life (there was no 'merciful killing of a someone earlier" scene so that parallel wasn't drawn in the book. And there's been some minor debate as to whether the Hound really died. The ending we see here is the same as in the book, and the old axiom of "if we didn't see a dead body" may or may not apply. He certainly looks to be a goner in both.

Also, you'd think someone would have the decency to say something sad about Oberyn.
Three of his daughters have been cast. They have things to say.

[shapinglight]

Did Arya use her coin to get on the ship?

Yes, she did. She showed it to the Braavosi captain and he got all respectful and bowed to her.

What happened to Jon?

Last seen walking away from Ygritte's pyre. He does seem to have caught Melisandre's eye, though.

Next season will be strange, because Jon, Dany and Tyrion don't appear in book 4, and I wonder if they will find some way to combine books 4 & 5.

Surely they will. I can't believe they'll just give Emilia Clarke, Peter Dinklage and Kit Harington the year off.

Is there enough story for them to smoosh the two books together and run the resulting story through two seasons?

'Dracarys' means 'dragon fire' in High Valyrian (or 'burn them to a crisp' :-) She named the black one after Drogo, and he has a much stronger bond with her than the others have.

Oo-oh! I see. No wonder Dany said it just before getting her dragons to burn someone to a crisp. ;)

I still can't get my head around Dany/Drogo, btw. I know we're expected to accept they really loved each other, but I never felt that was a relationship with a future.

[shapinglight]

Three of his daughters have been cast. They have things to say.

As long as we don't have to have flashbacks to his horrible death. ;(

So, do you think they'll smoosh books 4 and 5 together for the next two seasons? It seems a little unlikely that we'll have an entire season with no Tyrion, Dany or Jon.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Did Arya use her coin to get on the ship? What happened to Jon?


Book Reader: Pretty much the same book vs. show. Those things didn't change.

Next season will be strange, because Jon, Dany and Tyrion don't appear in book 4, and I wonder if they will find some way to combine books 4 & 5.

Book 4 and the first half of Book 5 occur simultaneously, so they'll be some combining.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Is there enough story for them to smoosh the two books together and run the resulting story through two seasons?

It's really weird. There's plenty left for those three (Arya, Jon, and especially Tyrion), but they're just about through all of Bran's and Sansa's stories to date.

But Book 4 and the first half of Book 5 take place at the same time in chronological time, so I would expect next season will be some subset of 4 & 5 and 6 the second half of 5 and whatever they may know about upcoming stuff.

[shapinglight]

Sounds likely - and a lot less likely that they'd lay off important members of the cast for an entire season.

Though of course if there's no story for Bran and Sansa...well, what will they do with those characters?

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

Book 4 and the first half of Book 5 occur simultaneously, so they'll be some combining.

It'll be even more complicated than usual!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the Tyrion/Shae stuff really irked me as well. I'm going to miss Tywin, but hey, valar morghulis and if he had to go, that's pretty much how he deserved to go: broke, robbed of his legacy, and with his trousers around his ankles.

Couldn't care less about the Magic Kingdom Of Magic Trees And Magic Fireballs so far.

But it's the first time I've ever been truly impressed by Stannis. The entire Wall story was brilliant in this episode IMO; Jon's scenes with Redbeard Rum and Mance Rayder, Ygritte's funeral pyre, Stannis' cavalry charge, Mance Rayder's refusal to bow... All very good stuff.

So basically, half the cast just emigrated, and the Seven Kingdoms lost the guy who's effectively ruled them for decades. This should be interesting.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

They'll have to.

Dany, Jorah, Tyrion, Jon, Stannis, Theon, and Varys are all absent in Book 4.

Sansa, Littlefinger, Jaime, Cersei, Tommen, Margeary, Brienne, etc. are absent for the first half of Book 5 (which takes place at the same time as Book 4)

About midway through Book 5 the two timelines catch up to one another and you get all the characters again.

As it stands, there are reasons to suspect that to make things align, Jaime may end up with a show-only subplot next season (there have been rumors about that) and could dovetail with his book 4 plot being pushed later into Book 5 on (where it intersects with Brienne's plot once again). Plus, it was always downright weird how so much of Book 4 jumped to Dorne with no established character acting as a bridge. It would make sense to use an established character(s) as a connector (it's just a rumor for now. Dorne characters are cast, so the show IS going to Dorne. The question is how much). I'm still hoping that Bronn goes with Jaime... but who knows.) It would be in the realm of possible for Varys to detour there at some point as well.

Arya is in Braavos in Book 4. (Another POV character also goes to Braavos in Book 4 but that hasn't been set-up yet, so I won't say who).

And Tyrion is also on the continent of Essos, though he does quite a bit of travelling and is in more than one place. {And I know you're spoiled that Tyrion runs into Jorah eventually).

I would expect next season to have elements from 4 & 5 along with some signficant additions because some characters' stories are going to have to be stretched out (Sansa, Bran) and others (Tyrion, for one) has more than enough material for two seasons.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

There's SOME story. It's just not two season's worth.

It's not that difficult to see Tyrion's broken down into two seasons. Arya's could be broken into two seasons as well (and kind of is, as she has plot in both books).

Jon also has a good amount of story (because they've now thrown Jon/The Wall story in with Stannis/Davos/Melisendre, so added together there's a lot of material. Then that actually begins to merge into "The North" plot and thus eventually ties in with Theon, the Boltons, and Asha/Yarra's stories). All of those characters combined give a good amount of ground to cover for two seasons.

Bran could be useful in story, so I'm curious how that works, but there's just not a ton of active things for him to do except learn mystical whats-it.

Sansa has SOME plot with the Eeryie politics, but it just doesn't seem to be 2 seasons worth.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

So basically, half the cast just emigrated, and the Seven Kingdoms lost the guy who's effectively ruled them for decades. This should be interesting.

It's like you don't have confidence in Cersei as an effective regent... ;)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't doubt that her rule will have effects... :)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I saw it only party but spoilered myself thoroughly.

Shipper X pretty much summed up the book/show differences already. Except that in the book when Jaime confesses the truth about Tysha to Tyrion he asks him if he killed Joffrey. Tyrion says he did, to hurt Jaime, who frees him anyway.

They somehow tried to blend the Tysha story with Shae's story but it really did not work very well.

At least Shae was awake on the show, in the book he strangles her in her sleep, which was even worse.

I found Tywin's end quite satisfying but for some reason they decided to skip the final scene of the book, which would have pulled more of a punch. I liked Arya getting the final frame, though.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, the Tyrion/Shae stuff really irked me as well.

She should at least have had the chance to express her POV, even if it was just to say, "I never loved you and wanted you dead."

I agree about Tywin, though I shall still miss the character just because Charles Dance was so good in the role.

Couldn't care less about the Magic Kingdom Of Magic Trees And Magic Fireballs so far.

No. Couldn't care less about Jojen either, but I am still fond of Bran and Hodor.

I agree Stannis's arrival was impressive. Not to mention, at least he (and Melisandre) seem to realise what happens at the Wall really matters.

So basically, half the cast just emigrated, and the Seven Kingdoms lost the guy who's effectively ruled them for decades. This should be interesting.

They do live in interesting times. ;)

[shapinglight]

At least Shae was awake on the show, in the book he strangles her in her sleep, which was even worse.

Boy, yes! That would have been far worse. Does tend to suggest they want the audience to continue to sympathise with Tyrion. I think strangling a helpless woman in her sleep would have lost him a few fans.

I found Tywin's end quite satisfying but for some reason they decided to skip the final scene of the book, which would have pulled more of a punch.

Hmm, now I'm curious to know what you mean. Without specific spoilers, can you say which of the ongoing storylines this scene is related to?

[shapinglight]

Something tells me we'll get to see even more of whatever it was she did (or maybe didn't do)that made Joffrey grow up to be a over-entitled psychopath.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

The last scene in the book is related to the Stark storyline. I guess, they will use it to open the next season now?

The Shae thing was really changed but yeah even if book Shae was just a complete opportunist it was a very dark moment for Tyrion. Because you get the impression that he just kills her because she never really was what he wanted her so badly to be.

On the show, she actually seemed to like him, which makes it worse. But her being awake and fighting him makes it more bearable.

[shapinglight]

I suspect it could well end up being a little more coherent than the books, if only because it wouldn't work to sideline so many of the characters people tune in to see.

If they hadn't killed Oberyn, they might have got away with some episodes featuring him and a cast of completely new characters in Dorne, but not as much as a season, or even half a season.

[ex_peasant441]

Maybe this is why the Sansa actress was talking about having so much other work planned?

[shapinglight]

I suppose we're meant to think that him finding her in his father's bed was the absolute last straw for him.

Bu-ut not really an excuse. Not in my eyes anyway.

[ex_peasant441]

I was assuming Arya didn't kill the Hound because she had grown fond of him - he has sort of been looking after her all season after all. Or am I misinterpreting?

The Shea business makes absolutely no sense.

And hurrah for Stannis actually doing something for once! As for how he got there - why couldn't he have just sailed north of the wall, thus avoiding the Boltons entirely? The dominant naval power in those parts seems to be the Greyjoys and they have no love for the Boltons so they would let him pass.

Also I am gutted about Tywin. I know I should be pleased that I predicted it but I am still sad.

[shapinglight]

I was assuming Arya didn't kill the Hound because she had grown fond of him - he has sort of been looking after her all season after all. Or am I misinterpreting?

It was completely ambiguous. He was dying rather horribly and wanted her to finish him off quickly. She didn't. She just walked away. On the other hand, if she'd just wanted to see him suffer she'd have stayed to watch. So I don't know.

The Shea business makes absolutely no sense.

No. This appears to be mainly because they changed her so completely from how she was in the books.

I suppose Stannis must have just gone around the Boltons, and now I think of it, in the episode where Stannis and Davos went to the Iron Bank of Braavos to borrow money Davos met his old friend the pirate captain and sort of twisted his arm to carry on helping Stannis. Maybe he transported them.

[shapinglight]

Maybe Sansa will just do cameos for a bit - unless they make up stuff for her to do.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I suspect it could well end up being a little more coherent than the books, if only because it wouldn't work to sideline so many of the characters people tune in to see.

Yeah, I've never doubted that they'd merge rather than sideline. You can't leave off with Tyrion dispearing for parts unknown and then skip an entire season before telling anything about not only Tyrion, but Jon OR Dany. Basically, I think a TV audience would find that really confusing.

What I'm hoping is that they also reduce new characters and give some of that action to existing characters. One thing I criticize GRRM over is the endless additions of new characters. I more than support the show's wish to hand offshoot characters actions to more primary characters.