Better Late than Never

[shapinglight]

I managed to miss the eighteen year anniversary of the first broadcast of Welcome to the Hellmouth yesterday, but better late than never, right?

BtVS was, and is, a truly great show.



I'm feeling this very much at the moment. For one thing, I just watched the latest episode of Agents of SHIELD and it was very much not a great show. In fact, it was dire. Clunky, badly written, characters you couldn't care less about, and worst of all BORING!

BtVS, on the other hand, was never, ever boring. Even the worst episodes had something great in them. And, in fact, as I've been rewatching (now up to the end of season 4), I've only come across two episodes that I think are genuinely bad (they're Some Assembly Required and Bad Eggs, if you're interested).

Buffy herself is a seminal character, without whom probably none of the later (and for the most part vastly inferior) crop of 'strong female characters' (an overused and often misapplied description, IMO. Can someone think of a new one, please?) would even exist.

For that matter, Angel and Spike, though derivative of earlier vampire characters, are way, way better than all of them.

Not to mention, Giles, Willow, Xander, Anya etc - all wonderful, engaging characters. Then there's the dialogue, the whole metaphors for real life thing, the humour - even the rather slapdash world-building which gave the fans so much room to insert/invent/create their own take on things.

I believe BtVS is lightning in a bottle. There will never be another show quite like it. And I think those of us who became (and often remain) obsessed with it, are so for very good reason.

Which is not to say it's perfect, but you can't have everything, can you?

Comments

[ruuger]

BtVS, on the other hand, was never, ever boring. Even the worst episodes had something great in them.

Yes, this I think is the show's true strength. It was always entertaining, even when it wasn't good.

an overused and often misapplied description, IMO. Can someone think of a new one, please?

'Interesting female character', perhaps? ;)

[shapinglight]

'Interesting female character', perhaps? ;)

I like that much better - not least because some so-called strong female characters are actually boring as hell.

See again, the latest episode of AoS.

Or rather, don't, because it was so dull!

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

(they're Some Assembly Required and Bad Eggs, if you're interested)

Aww, I didn't hate them all that much. Of course I haven't watched them in awhile either. :P I, too, think there are only a couple bad ones, but they'll remain un-named.

But yeah, BTVS was the right place at the right time. Many have tried to copy it but have failed for one reason or another.

[elisi]

I believe BtVS is lightning in a bottle. There will never be another show quite like it. And I think those of us who became (and often remain) obsessed with it, are so for very good reason.
*nods* I think there are/will be other shows, but none that catch that very specific, magical mixture.

[shapinglight]

I didn't hate them either, but I didn't think they were very good. This applies in particular to Some Assembly Required which never really pinged my 'not a good episode' radar before. This time I thought it was pretty dire. I guess I just don't like Frankenstein-inspired stories.

There is a great scene in it, though, when Cordelia suddenly latches on to Angel, says she's feeling fragile and can he please see her home. Poor old Angel just can't think of a way to get out of it. Giles and Jenny arguing about American football vs rugby is cute too. That's the sort of thing that saves a bad episode of BtVS every single time.

I never liked Bad Eggs much. It's been my pick for worst episode of the show ever right from the start. But I rewatched it recently and there's some fun stuff in it too, of course. In fact, I think I'd like to swap the two over and declare Some Assembly Required as worst episode.

As for Beer Bad and WtWTA from season 4, which routinely get a lot of criticism, I thought the first was the most hilarious thing I'd seen in ages, and the second way, way better than I remembered. Lots of great stuff in both of them. I wish Tracey Forbes had stuck around.

[shapinglight]

Exactly.

Joss set out to create a pop-culture phenomenon, and he did. I also think he achieved a lot of stuff with the show that he actually never set out to achieve - because he had such a stellar cast and bunch of writers.

It'd be almost impossible to reproduce. Certainly, Joss hasn't managed it.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree Agents was just dire imo and even at it's worst thats something you could never accuse Buffy of being.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

Agreed on all points except you cannot mention worst episodes without at least a nod to Killed by Death :)

[shapinglight]

Well, some people possibly would, just as some would claim the comics are a great continuation of the show, but they obviously don't know what they're talking about. ;)

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

BtVS was, and is, a truly great show.


I've got nothing further.

[shapinglight]

Killed by Death isn't great, I agree (I especially hate the scene of poor Cordy being forced to flirt with the dumb security guy), but there was a lot of stuff I liked in it too. The monster looked genuinely scary, and the Evil!Angel/Xander confrontation is wonderful.

So, while it's pretty low down on my list in terms of quality, I can't put it below the two I mentioned.

On the whole the standalones in season 2 aren't that good, but some are better than I remember.

I never used to like Inca Mummy Girl and Reptile Boy much either, but when I rewatched them, I enjoyed them both very much.

[shapinglight]

BtVS was, and is, a truly great show.


I've got nothing further.

Well, it's one of the great truths of TV history. What more is there to say?

:)

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

The AoS people annoy me in the same way that the Dollhouse people did...

Oh, it's gonna get better real soon, you just have to stick with it!

Actually, I don't. :)

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

That's really the core of it... even the really bad episodes generally had at least one or two scenes that make them worth watching.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Well said!

[shapinglight]

I did think it was improving somewhat in the first part of the season, but then it went on hiatus and Agent Carter was shown in its slot - and there's just no comparison.

Agent Carter was really good, I thought, and AoS just looks even more s**t after it.

Plus, the only good thing in the two episodes since the show came back has been a guest appearance by Kyle McLachlan. He has the knack of making even really awful dialogue not sound quite so bad.

[shapinglight]

Yep. I can't think of a single one where that's not the case.

[shapinglight]

Not the first to say it by a long way, and I very much doubt I'll be the last, because it just is that good.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I didn't mind Forbes at all. I liked her eps. I guess maybe they felt they already had one comedy writer in Jane.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I believe BtVS is lightning in a bottle. There will never be another show quite like it.

I continue to hold out hope.

[helenkacan.livejournal.com]

One of the wonderful strengths of BtVS was the ensemble cast that - on paper - might have been demoted to mere caricatures and tropes, but brought the words to life in a way that captivated, entertained, amused or enraged us ... often at the same time!

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yep. It's pretty much the greatest. *sigh* It's a good thing we have "The Americans". And "Orphan Black". And "Agent Carter". (I had some problems with the last ep, but it was still delightful.) I also loved large swathes of "Caprica" and "Dollhouse", though neither had the chance to develop the way "Buffy" did. I mean, would we love it as much if it had only run one or two seasons? Also, none of those I listed are nearly as funny, which is important.

the rather slapdash world-building which gave the fans so much room to insert/invent/create their own take

Hee. Perfectly imperfect. I just read on one the the many anniversary lists going around that Danny Strong was under consideration for the role of Xander. Jonathan as Xander. Wow. That would have turned out differently, I'll bet. It's sort of a bunny-inducing possibility, isn't it?

[shapinglight]

Well, you never know, but I'm pretty certain that for me, BtVS is a one off.

[shapinglight]

Yes, so true. Everything combined to make the show so much more than the sum of its parts.

[shapinglight]

And "Agent Carter". (I had some problems with the last ep, but it was still delightful.)

I agree the last episode wasn't quite as good as it could have been. I didn't mind the whole Peggy managing to save Howard when she couldn't save Steve thing, but the comparison didn't really work. Steve had to do what he did. He had no choice. And Peggy knew that. Also, I would like it to have ended with Peggy on the bridge and to have had the final scene with the two villains in prison before. Lots of great stuff in it, though.

I mean, would we love it as much if it had only run one or two seasons?

I doubt it. On the other hand, none of the episodes in those two seasons were as bad as the bad episodes in Dollhouse, of which there were quite a few, and Caprica, as you point out, is totally lacking in humour. So I think BtVS, while it might not be lauded and remembered the way it is if it had only gone two seasons would be remembered with more fondness than either of those shows.

I just read on one the the many anniversary lists going around that Danny Strong was under consideration for the role of Xander.

I hadn't heard that one before, and it's not that I don't believe it, but several of the things I've read off these anniversary lists I know to be just plain wrong.

[shapinglight]

I suppose. Will just have to make do with what we got from Forbes, which, since it includes Something Blue along with these other two, is no small thing.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Joss hasn't managed it.

I include Joss as one of the people who probably never got why it was so popular to begin with. It wasn't the world-building or the messages, it was the characters. Over the years he seems to have gotten less interested in putting characterization before the others. Or he just lost the ability to.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I think you're right. Season 8, for instance, seems to be all about his disappointment with Obama for not bringing about world peace, or some such.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Danny Strong has said that he auditioned for the role of Xander, but he never even got a call-back and he obviously wasn't what they were looking for. I got the sense that they were always looking for a fairly traditionally good-looking guy still to play their ~geeky~ character, original plans were for Xander to be the male lead and possible future love interest of Buffy I believe, early marketing posters focused on Xander alongside Buffy quite a bit

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

BtVS, on the other hand, was never, ever boring. Even the worst episodes had something great in them.

Definitely, every episode always had some great moment of characterisation to save it at the very least, even if they didn't quite pull off the main plot. For example Bad Eggs is, not without justification, frequently dismissed as having a terrible B-movie plot, but when you rewatch even those "bad" Buffy episodes, there is still that Buffy lightness of touch and dialogue to save many of the scenes

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

Absolutely right, it's the characters that redeem it, even in the episodes with plots to make you wince. In fact, as with 'Angel', it's the episodes that are plot-or concept-driven, instead of character-driven, that are the weakest. When Angel goes bad, we're horrified and scared for Buffy, because we know her and we care about her. In 'Something Blue', Buffy and Spike snogging is hilarious because we know neither of them ever, ever would(?!). Whereas when ANYTHING happened to characters in Dollhouse, I always thought 'meh, what new plot revelation will deus-ex him/her out of this one'?

[baudown.livejournal.com]

There are a lot of shows that I think are great -- shows with great acting, interesting themes, complex characters, superb writing -- but BtVS stands alone. Nothing will ever have the emotional resonance that this show did, and does, for me.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Is that what they're claiming now? I struggle to believe it since they were a quarter of the way over before he even took office.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, I noticed when a friend began to watch the series for the first time how much it is that I enjoyed all the characters. There are a few I found uninteresting but I found I remembered most quite fondly. I think the series was always great at creating memorable characters, which is something a lot of shows don't do well at all.

There were also a lot of great storylines and some good advance planning at different points. Even though I've watched some really well written shows since then, I haven't loved any like I loved this one (and Angel, which always ends up forgotten but to me was a continuation of BtVS)

[shapinglight]

Were they?

God, my memory's playing me tricks. I thought season 8 started before Obama was elected for the first time.

Ah. I think I know what I'm possibly thinking of. I'm sure I saw Joss describing the backlash against (and eventual destruction of) the Slayer army as being like the backlash against Obama after his first election.

Another case of looking prescient in hindsight.

[shapinglight]

original plans were for Xander to be the male lead and possible future love interest of Buffy I believe, early marketing posters focused on Xander alongside Buffy quite a bit.

Well, it certainly looked that way in season 1. I was definitely expecting it, and pleased when it didn't happen, as it would have been kind of a cliche.

I wonder when they changed their minds? Certainly, in his episode commentary for Reptile Boy David Greenwalt hints that it's still on the cards.

[shapinglight]

I agree (though I stick by my assessment above that Some Assembly Required and Bad Eggs are the only two genuinely bad episodes in the entire series.

[shapinglight]

Not to mention Dollhouse was full of ridiculous plot twists that made even the most absurd turns of events in BtVS look well thought out and brilliantly plotted in comparison.

[shapinglight]

Very well put, and same here.

[shapinglight]

Agreed on all points. There are several characters I'm not so fond of (Andrew and Kennedy spring to mind, though I didn't mind Kennedy as a concept, if you see what I mean. The actress just wasn't good enough) but none that I outright hate.

Well, Caleb maybe. But we're supposed to hate him so I suppose it doesn't matter as much.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I thought season 8 started before Obama was elected for the first time.

Well, that's what I meant. S8 started in...April 2007? Somewhere around mid-2007 anyway. He didn't take office until 2008. And if you believe them, the Twilight crap was all written first. So...yeah. Not buying it. Especially when during the run, S8 was apparently about everything under the sun at one point or another. I don't think it was actually about anything at all and every month Allie was forced to throw out some theme or metaphor to explain things, and it usually ended up contradicted the very next issue.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I suspect that they still had in the backs of their minds as a possible endgame in season 2, you can see hints of it in Phases and Bewitched, Bewildered, and Bothered especially

Presumably though the Buffy/Angel romance took off in such a big way that they realised that the chemistry wasn't there with Buffy/Xander in the same way, there aren't really any B/X vibes by the time of season 3

[shapinglight]

No, there aren't. Xander's with Cordy, Willow and then Anya.

I suppose if Angel had never come back from hell (which I suspect was how Joss imagined the story going, except that he wanted to do a separate show with Angel) then it might have been different.

[shapinglight]

Well, that's what I meant. S8 started in...April 2007? Somewhere around mid-2007 anyway. He didn't take office until 2008.

Sorry. I meant to say, after Obama was elected for the first time, not before.

As for season 8, I think you're right it wasn't really about anything except running your characters into the ground for no reason.

I can't describe Joss's decision to let Brad Meltzer anywhere near his story as anything else but self-inflicted vandalism.