Buffy season 10 no 17

[shapinglight]

Spoilers behind cut. I enjoyed it, btw.



Mind you, it's not any better than previous issues - obvious writing, very talky, etc, etc. I still enjoyed it, though.

Rather a lot of anvil-y conversations, including one where Willow - based on her experience with Aluwyn - tells Angel that mortal/immortal relationships rarely work because mortals change all the time and immortals don't. When Angel protests that Spike is immortal too, Willow says Spike hasn't had his soul back for long and that was a very big change.

This seems to imply that eventually Spike will reach some sort of steady state where he won't change and therefore won't be a suitable partner for Buffy any more.

Or something. Who knows?

The anvil-y Willow/Angel conversation also features an attempt by Angel to claim that he's changed a lot from how he was in 1922 (a year chosen arbitrarily by Willow, I think), only to go on to describe what he used to be like and realise he's still exactly the same.

Elsewhere, Buffy snaps at Spike then has a rather puzzling conversation with Andrew. Not sure that I get what that's about. Something about seizing the moment, I think. Also, Spike clearly still doesn't believe that Buffy loves him, and why would he, given what happened in seasons 8 & 9? And of course she still hasn't said so.

The issue ends with Angel getting possessed by Archaeus and running Spike through with a sword. Mind you, he's owed Spike a running through with a sword since AHitW in AtS season 5. This one is less funny, though.

Can't really guess how this arc is going to end relationship-wise, but from the spoilery blurb for the first issue of A&F after the crossover, Angel will be taking Archaeus back to Magic Town with him somehow or other (maybe as an unwitting passenger in his head, though I would imagine that he will appear to be back to himself by the end of the next issue). Not sure what Spike's ongoing doubts mean either. Or whether Willow's comments about mortal/immortal relationships just not working is a sign of things to come (it probably is - though if Spike is to move on to Mrs Marsters Dylan, surely the same thing would apply to her?).

Still can't guess how this is going to end. Bored with Archaeus, though. I'll be glad when he f**ks off to A&F (which is already boring). Lets get back to Ghost!Anya.

Comments

[teragramm.livejournal.com]

I too enjoyed the issue but it was way talky. My thoughts on the talky talks are they were meant to confuse us. That talk with Andrew.... I felt it was meat to make us believe that Buffy should get back with Angel. On the other hand the talk between Xander and Angel was meant to make us believe Spike and Buffy should stay together. See... it was all meant to confuse us and mislead us in what direction they are actually going.

[shapinglight]

That talk with Andrew.... I felt it was meat to make us believe that Buffy should get back with Angel.

I thought that too the first time I read it. The second time I wasn't so sure. Spike obviously thinks she's having doubts, though.

See... it was all meant to confuse us and mislead us in what direction they are actually going.

Yes, probably.

To be honest, I don't mind all the talking that much. In this form of literature (if you can call it that), I prefer it. I'd rather know what people are thinking.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Soundsl like it may head into Spuffy implodes over Spike 'insecurity' (never quite feeling loved) because that's his steady state (never mind that the insecurity comes from just cause).

And lol no Angel never really changes (albeit that's a story tack that doesn't work well for the character of Spike who constantly evolved on the show).

[rahirah]

Yeah, I can't buy the Bangel spell theory. When Spuffy implodes (I still can't bring myself to believe it will last) it will be because of real issues -- Spike's insecurity, the mortal/immortal thing, or Buffy either not loving him or not being able to say so.

And yeah. The key point isn't that Spike got his soul more recently than Angel did. It's that Spike got a soul deliberately. He voluntarily made a huge change, and could conceivably do so again, whereas Angel has had his big choices forced upon him.

[shapinglight]

Soundsl like it may head into Spuffy implodes over Spike 'insecurity' (never quite feeling loved) because that's his steady state (never mind that the insecurity comes from just cause).

I think so too, which is sort of sad, but plausible.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Archaeus is bloody stupid. Other than that I enjoyed this issue very much as has been the case with the entire season 10. I too don't have a clue about what Buffy means with what she is saying or not saying to Andrew but I'm always prepared for her not loving or not wanting to be in a relationship with my love, Spike. That's just how it is, isn't it?

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

I'm reading Willow's comment re: mortal/immortal relationships as a foreshadowing of an eventual Buffy/Spike breakup. Sigh.

[double_dutchess]

I only read the issue once (on my phone) so will have to reread it before making any extensive comments about it, but my first reactions were:

- Spike can't come up with any significant differences between himself and Angel? What freakin' bizarro world did I wake up in?!

- Dawn's and Andrew's reactions to Angel are weird!

- Willow is so wrong about vampires not changing. I can't think of anybody who has changed more than Spike. Still, it does seem to be a negative foreshadowing :-(

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

It...could have been better. The art is nice, and I sort of liked the Angel/Xander interactions, although Angel doesn't come off very well in any of these talks. It's nice that he values "real memories", but he still thinks that he knows best whether he should be in them. (I've seen people calling it selfless, but it just seem paternalistic to me. "Real" love means being there, for your kids and others, imho.) He seems in character, though, which I appreciate. But Dawn? Crushing on Angel back when? I don't buy it, even in service of making Xander jealous. I'll be really miffed if this is leading to a Dawn/Angel romance in another season or two.

Spike being an unchanging immortal? Not so much.

I also am very ready to find out what's the deal with ghost!Anya.

[shapinglight]

The key point isn't that Spike got his soul more recently than Angel did. It's that Spike got a soul deliberately. He voluntarily made a huge change, and could conceivably do so again, whereas Angel has had his big choices forced upon him.

Since it happened, I can't remember any of the characters mentioning this except Spike himself, and when he does, he's always written like a complete jerk, even though it happens to be true.

[shapinglight]

Unfortunately, yes. I haven't entirely given up hope but I do begin to feel that Spuffy is being set up to fail.

Begin to feel? I've felt that right from the start, if only because this comic has Joss's name on it.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, me too - though as I said, if they are thinking of throwing Mrs Marsters Dylan at Spike as a sort of consolation prize, the same applies to her.

[shapinglight]

- Spike can't come up with any significant differences between himself and Angel? What freakin' bizarro world did I wake up in?!

I felt that speech of his went off in an odd direction. Spike started off comparing him and Buffy to Buffy and Angel, then suddenly he's making direct comparisons with himself and Angel. I don't get it either.

- Dawn's and Andrew's reactions to Angel are weird!

Dawn's certainly was. I'm not saying she should have been all standoffish with him, but the hugging was somewhat OTT, I thought.

- Willow is so wrong about vampires not changing. I can't think of anybody who has changed more than Spike. Still, it does seem to be a negative foreshadowing :-(

Yeah, it does. ;)

[shapinglight]

The art is nice, and I sort of liked the Angel/Xander interactions, although Angel doesn't come off very well in any of these talks.

He doesn't, does he, though I understand there are many who think he was being wonderful and heroic, and, unlike Spike, showing he cares more about Buffy than his own happiness.

Which may be true, but I'm not surprised Xander looked completely gobsmacked to hear that Angel had interfered with Connor's memories (and with Buffy's, though Angel failed to mention that).

I did appreciate his "I'll guard the rear" moment when he realised that, no, in many ways he hadn't changed that much since 1922.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

(albeit that's a story tack that doesn't work well for the character of Spike who constantly evolved on the show).

Yeah, I sort of get the impression from the story that we the reader are supposed to view Spike and Angel as both being essentially the same. It doesn't work with the show, but that hasn't stopped them before.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, I sort of get the impression from the story that we the reader are supposed to view Spike and Angel as both being essentially the same. It doesn't work with the show, but that hasn't stopped them before.

Yeah, it doesn't really work. I've seen the claim re-surface over this issue that Spike just wants to be Angel, but I've never thought that was the case. At least, it was never that simple.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Finally read it. It's not bad, but you kinda have to ignore everything before mid-S10 for a lot of the talk not to make you 'huh?' Nothing out of Dawn's mouth makes sense, either to Angel or Spike. All Andrew does is repeat the same thing she said to him 5 issues ago.

Also this UV-Ray weapon stuff needs to stop.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

At first I thought it could just be a joke. They've played it before with the different coloring line in Dirty Girls.

Given the context, though, I think it's supposed to mirror Angel's realization that he hasn't changed.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Yes. And while it might cause me pain, it's also what I like him for. I have to say that I hate unhappy endings, but really, those are the ones that stay with us. And that feel more real than anything else. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Don't need a happy ending. Just a nice one.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Yes, that would be one major plot hole. But I don't think we will see Dylan (oh, by the way, I'm absolutely in love with the real Mrs. Marsters - what a sweetheart) - anyway see Dylan again or I (bloody well) hope not. I wouldn't have minded that story one bit if it had taken place post or during Angel season 5 but between Buffy season 6 and 7? I've just spent a week "with" James M onboard that cruise ship and I love him, but smartest man on this earth he isn't. But Christos Cage or of course Joss should have put their feet down and changed the time line. I think the reason Joss didn't is that he doesn't really care about the Buffy verse or he simply doesn't care for James (that much is clear) and kind of wanted him to get critiziced. (spelling). Otherwise, I just don't get. But then again, I never was the smartest woman on earth, either.

[shapinglight]

But I don't think we will see Dylan (oh, by the way, I'm absolutely in love with the real Mrs. Marsters - what a sweetheart)

I haven't ever spoken to her myself (have seen her) but she seems very nice, and she's been very good for James.

I'd like to think Dylan won't turn up again, but someone asked Gage about it on Twitter and he said she would. So who knows?

I agree James's story was badly positioned with regard to canon. Doesn't fit at all into BtVS season 7. I doubt Joss didn't change the timeline because he doesn't like James (though I don't think he has much time for him). More like he didn't bother reading it, or has forgotten continuity himself.

[shapinglight]

Yes, nice doesn't necessarily have to equal happy.

[shapinglight]

Yes, agreed.

It might be that Spike's sudden wobble is as much to do with thinking he's no good for Buffy any more than Angel is than being upset because he thinks she still loves Angel.

[shapinglight]

Finally read it. It's not bad, but you kinda have to ignore everything before mid-S10 for a lot of the talk not to make you 'huh?'

I agree. They pay lip service to what happened in season 8 but it feels like they're just ticking boxes to me. They don't really want to deal with it.

Also this UV-Ray weapon stuff needs to stop.

It is pretty annoying. I quite like the banana phones, though. Were they in the show? I don't remember.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I was mostly joking as I don't think Joss is petty or think about James at all really.

About Gage's twitter remark concerning Dylan. Hmm, I guess she will, then. That sucks.

About Jasmin. Well, obviously I don't know her but I have had plenty of small facebook and twitter/instagram interactions with her and she just behaves as if she is down to earth, has a great sense of humor and self irony and I value those trademarks very much. And she is sort of humble, too. At one point she contacted me privately on facebook thanking me for defending her after a particular vicious remark/attack on her on facebook profile. If they ever divorce, he is the one missing out (which I think he is very much aware of). But that's it for her. I still don't really care for Dylan. :)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I quite like the banana phones, though.

I have to say, I don't get the joke. I thought it was supposed to be some kind of turn on Apple, which is what Andrew uses.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Oh, I see it now. Somehow or another I missed that page.

And no, I don't believe we ever saw those on the show. Frankly, I don't see Warren permitting such a thing.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think that's how it reads too on Spike's part.

It's the Dawn part that doesn't make sense to me 'cause there's nothing there to show Buffy's second-guessing so much as being annoyed at Spike's ranting. Of course, I get the impression from Willow's conversation, too. Both she and Dawn start off with the same 'don't take it personally' line, so...I don't know. As usual, upon further analysis, it doesn't make much sense.

Could be intentional to keep the reader wondering WTF until the final issue.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

has forgotten continuity himself.

Who could forget him 'forgetting' Warren was dead, was played by the First and was a major part of S7.

[shapinglight]

I'm sure it is. They want us to think this could be the end for Spike/Buffy (which it could be), or the end for Buffy/Angel (which it also could be), or both, or neither. ;)

It'll probably end up being more like neither.

[shapinglight]

And she is sort of humble, too. At one point she contacted me privately on facebook thanking me for defending her after a particular vicious remark/attack on her on facebook profile.

That was nice of her. She's had to put up with a lot. Some of the things said about her that I've heard of have been really vicious, and pretty racist too.

I don't care for Dylan either, and nice as Jasmin may be, and sweet as it is in a way, I still find James writing his wife into the story a little bit icky. ;)

I could cope with it, though, when I thought that was just a one-off non-canonical story. Bringing Dylan into season 10 really annoyed me. I didn't want that story 'canonised' in any way because, as you say, it just doesn't fit.

[shapinglight]

Exactly. I'm sure that, if he even thought it mattered, which he probably wouldn't, that it makes no sense to have Spike wander off to LA and look seriously at another woman in BtVS season 7, he's forgotten what Spike's arc was in that season.

[shapinglight]

Huh! I really did think that was some silly thing the Trio had had in season 6.

You're right, though. It doesn't seem like Warren's style.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

Yes to the ickyness. Just yes.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Not to mention being able to hit people. It makes no sense whatsoever to place it there.

[sibilant.livejournal.com]

Really not encouraging me to read this season. Sounds like it's all over the place. Season 8 was enough, I think!

[shapinglight]

And the duster, which he didn't put back on until two thirds of the way through the season.

James's story was a perfectly nice little non-canon story. If they'd left it that way I wouldn't have a problem. But then Mrs Marsters Dylan showed up in season 10.

[shapinglight]

I actually like this season quite a lot. Doesn't mean it's good, of course, but I like it.

And it's not nearly as mad (plus, better art) than season 8.

[fangfaceandrea.livejournal.com]

Mostly I find that I don't care enough for Angel to put up with his moaning on this issue, if I wanted Angel I'd read the Angel and Faith comics. I just want this crossover to be over.
Dawn was completely OOC too, I don't think her fake memories have her spending enough time to develop a crush on Angel.. On top of her teenage Xander and Spike crushes...
Just no.
I did like the fact that Buffy didn't want to spend that much time with Angel, she seemed to be the only one who remember twilight.

[shapinglight]

Comics Angel is pretty annoying, though I don't find him as annoying in this crossover as I did when Spike crossed over to A&F last season. The dynamic between them then was all wrong, given the whole Twilight thing.

I agree Dawn's reaction is OTT. I can imagine her being friendly to Angel just fine, but the hugging is a little too much.