(no subject)

[shapinglight]

This excerpt from Joss's The Write Environment DVD cheered me up no end. Thank you so much to icafreak for transcribing it and for unflocking her post so we can all read it.

Pity the DVD's not available on Amazon.co.uk.

Comments

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

It kind of sounds like retcon on Joss's part, but then I've got nothing to compare the current statement to except the cloud of speculation among fans about Joss's feeling about Spike. Certainly James seems to feel a bit resentful, but who knows what the root of that is. And Joss sounds resentful about being forced to take Spike for AtS season 5 thought he turned out to be an entertaining addition to the show. I suppose Spike wouldn't have ended with such a fascinating arc if Joss hadn't been invested in his character. Perhaps he was invested and ambivalent.

I looked at the link for the DVD and though of buying it, but veered off as there's something irritating to me nowadays about Joss's arch style even though I still love his writing.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"It kind of sounds like retcon on Joss's part,"

I gotta say ditto I'm afraid. It's nice thought, but I can't help but feel it doesn't fit in with whats gone on in the past.

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Yesh! It shocked me to no end, in a very good way. My Joss faith is restored! ^^

[enisy.livejournal.com]

As I said, I love Joss even more now. ♥

[rahirah]

Maybe he finally decided if you can't beat them, join them...

[danna7001.livejournal.com]

I'm not really in the loop for who-says-what, but always find this kind of thing very interesting. Spike's role in the show(s) was pivotal. Anyone who is in denial of that is… in denial. Anyone who resents it, well I can sort of understand, even though I don’t agree. Would love to know the real story. Maybe one of the actors will go into rehab, mismanage all their money, or career will dry up – not that I’m wishing for that, but then we could perhaps look forward to a "tell-all" book.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hey, Deb

I'm curious about this phrase

Jeff: He's got more of an edge.

Did I understand it correctly and Berman means that Spike is tougher and cooler? Or there is another interpretation of "edge". I'm curious because this little exchange reflects our debates on IDW forums: male fans prefer tough Spike, female - "evolved" Spike.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the link. It's good to hear Joss say something that nice about Spike.
It's not his usual o-tone though, is it?

[enisy.livejournal.com]

That's what everyone keeps saying around these parts, but has he ever really been negative about Spike? As I see it, all these theories that Joss secretly despised the character have just been proved to be Chinese Whispers, to use sueworld2003's term.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'd like to see the IDW forum discussions, but there are so many threads! Can you suggest one, to start? For a Spike lover, I mean.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you are right, and Jeff was seeing Spike through typical boy's eyes, seeing only bad-boy side of him. Look how out of tune he is with Joss, as Joss means totally different things in that conversation.
And yes, female fans prefer evolved sensitive Spike, but that's so cool and interesting about Joss - he writes like a woman and for women, there's feminine quality to his writing and to his vision of all the characters.

There was never a doubt in my mind that Joss loved and got evolving, sensitive and angsty Spike as no one else, and that those who only saw a bad boy warrior in Spike were off the mark and out of tune with Joss. Like Scott Allie, for example.
As for whatever James Marsters might say over the years - actors are ficle and sensitive people, otherwise they wouldn't be actors. But the proof of Joss love for the character, for Joss getting the character, is in the pudding, i.e. in the series. Spike got one of the best arcs *ever* in Joss work, and unlike many others, his arc was upwards and ended in his redemption.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I rarely listen to what's going on behind the stage, because it spoils my fun, but I dimly remember Joss stating relatively clear that Buffy-Angel was the great pair of the show.

I really doubt that this means, that he dislikes Spike's character though. Why build him up like that, if he did?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

There is no a particular thread and I could hardly point a particular post. But there is a constantly brewing opposition between fans who love tough Spike (preferably - evil) and fans who love his poetic self.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

I'm in love with this post.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Did I understand it correctly and Berman means that Spike is tougher and cooler?

That's how I interpreted it, although with the emphasis on "cool" rather than "tough".

The opposite of a character with an edge would be a character who was bland and colourless.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

Nah, he hasn't said that. Would have been all over the debates I have with Angel/Buffy fans on a regular basis, and the threads of theirs I check on a regular basis.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks!I'm often in doubt when I translate some crucial declaration and try to be as true to the original as possible.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Geez! The whole point of Spike is you don't have to choose one or the other. He's a badass AND a romantic. Always has been, always will be. Who holds his heart is subject to circumstance, which is part of what makes him so fun to play with.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

You know, today we had a little Buffyholic party at my place and we rewatched Dr. Horrible. By that time I already read Ikafreak's transcript and watched Dr. Horrible thinking about Joss' interview. He uses interesting wording to describe Spike:

Spike was sort of the new mod rebellion against [Angel as the classic Lestat in puffy shirt]

Maybe it's not about feminine POV but about subversion of the classic traditions of storytelling.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's not about feminine POV but about subversion of the classic traditions of storytelling.
It's absolutely about feminine POV, but also about subversion of the classic storytelling, I agree. ;) Joss is characterized by both. And I see feminine POV in his other works, like in Firefly for ex. Where also a large chunk of the audience gets in tune with toughness and bad boys like Jayne and that side of Mal - over-emphasizing with it, while missing and misinterpreting significance of the feminine side, like Simon and River arc. But it's all there.

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

Heh, any time he shows some Spike love is just fine with me ;-)

[swsa.livejournal.com]

This. Seriously, I hear all these comments about how Angel was Joss' beloved, and I've never understood where it comes from. He's always stressed how important the B/A story was certainly, but if anything, I think he's consistently not known what to do with Angel (network mandated character, spun off to another series with others doing the showrunning), while he's been way more enthusiastic and involved in Spike's storylines. The Chosen commentary alone, I think makes it pretty clear that he had a lot invested in Spuffy, but worked to try not to offend either shipper faction.

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

It did cheer me up too. Thank you !

[shapinglight]

Hi, ToM. Sorry to have been such a long time answering comments on this post. I don't know if I agree it's a retcon. Joss feeling this way about Spike would in no way preclude him still feeling that Spike subverted the premise of his show, as JM thinks he does.

I think a lot of JM's resentment does stem from the season 6 storyline, personally, which of course Joss signed off on. It was tough for JM, and maybe he's the sort who broods?

I couldn't say whether or not Joss sounds resentful about having to have Spike in AtS season 5 without hearing the tone of his voice when he talks about it. Whatever his feelings, though, judging by this, he seems to have thought it worked out okay.

I know what you mean about Joss's style. It can be a bit wearing. And I'm not a fan of everything he writes. Not keen on Firefly and totally fail to get the attraction of Doctor Horrible. As for the season 8 comic...enough said really.

However, I'm very, very grateful to Joss for having said this. You never know, he may never talk about Spike ever again, and if this is his last word on the character, I'm happy to take it.

[shapinglight]

Not sure I agree, as you know. But hey, it may be the last thing Joss ever says about Spike so I'll take it.

[shapinglight]

My Joss faith is restored! ^^

:) It certainly helps.

[shapinglight]

I almost forgive him season 8.

[shapinglight]

Anyone who is in denial of that is… in denial. Anyone who resents it, well I can sort of understand, even though I don’t agree.

There are plenty of both of course. Sometimes there are people who are both in denial and resentful. Can't understand why they stick around really.

I expect one day one of the actors will tell all, but I think a little more time will have to pass first.

[shapinglight]

Hi Moscow. Sorry to have been so tardy answering this comment, and I see other people have already told you what they thought the interviewer was getting at.

And you're completely right about how feelings about Spike seem to divide pretty evenly between the sexes, which makes Joss's more 'feminine' take on what makes Spike a great character even more interesting.

[shapinglight]

I'm not sure the IDW forum is a terribly good place for Spike fans, though it's better than many. It helps that Brian Lynch, who is writing the AtS comics is a fan of the character himself.

[shapinglight]

And yes, female fans prefer evolved sensitive Spike, but that's so cool and interesting about Joss - he writes like a woman and for women, there's feminine quality to his writing and to his vision of all the characters.

That's for the most part very true, Nata. I love your comment. Would say, though, that Joss's feminized sensibility hasn't worked nearly so well in season 8. It's not that it's typical macho comic book fare, but more that it lacks heart, I guess.

Will say again, that I love your comment. But then I usually do.

[shapinglight]

Well, to be fair, he rarely mentions Spike at all.

[shapinglight]

Yep, that would be one that Cheryl and co would trot our with tedious regularity if Joss had ever actually said it.

[shapinglight]

The Chosen commentary alone, I think makes it pretty clear that he had a lot invested in Spuffy, but worked to try not to offend either shipper faction.

I must listen to that some time. I've never actually managed to bring myself to do it.

[shapinglight]

It's good, isn't it? Made my day, in fact.

[shapinglight]

I'm not much of a Firefly fan, but Mal and Jayne were about my least favourite characters.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hi Moscow.

*waves back*

I see other people have already told you what they thought the interviewer was getting at

Yes, I already translated it, posted on my Russian diary and got a lot of squeees! :)))

And you're completely right about how feelings about Spike seem to divide pretty evenly between the sexes, which makes Joss's more 'feminine' take on what makes Spike a great character even more interesting.

Just in case - the interviewer, executive producer Jeffrey Berman, came to Dark Horse Spuffy thread

tttp://www.darkhorse.com/Help/Boards/viewtopic.php?t=12374&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=4425

and wrote, among other things:

As for Spike, hands down the coolest anit-hero on celluloid. I had the good fortune to meet James once and he was a really nice guy. Now be honest, wouldn't you really like to see Spike get his own series? Spike and Xander, on the road to Morocco.

Looks he's a Spander shipper :))))

He also asks who would we like to see him interview in the future DVDs and gives his e-mail.

jeffrey@thewriteenvironment.com

I wrote on the DH thread that I'd love to see Marti Noxon, Jane Espenson, David Fury, David Greenwalt, Douglas Petrie, esp. in regard of Fool For Love. If you have other ideas - he sounds very forthcoming! :)

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

This post cheered me up. What interested me the most was the fact that JW found layers in the character since the beginning. I don't think it's incompatible with the idea that at first Spike was a disposable character : it was a way to reniew their vilains. As he says,discovering all the potential, beautifully valorized by JM's acting, in Spike was a process they experimented through work. It's probably as much an explanation as the popularity of the character as to why they decided to keep him.
What made me happy too, was the idea that "the character was good even when he was bad". It's true the theme of Spike's humanity was introduced at a very early stage of the show and became central in his development in later seasons 5 and 6. Personnally I've always read his journey in these seasons as the awakening of the tiny little sparks of humanity and good that were left in him.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

"

As for Spike, hands down the coolest anit-hero on celluloid. I had the good fortune to meet James once and he was a really nice guy. Now be honest, wouldn't you really like to see Spike get his own series? Spike and Xander, on the road to Morocco.

Looks he's a Spander shipper :))))

"

Does he know that Morocco had a reputation for being a haven for gay people in the sixties and seventies? :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Does he know that Morocco had a reputation for being a haven for gay people in the sixties and seventies? :)

Really? I didn't know it! I thought it was a reference to a Crosby/Hope movie!

Live and learn! :)))))

[shapinglight]

Really? I didn't know it! I thought it was a reference to a Crosby/Hope movie!

I expect it was that too.

[shapinglight]

What made me happy too, was the idea that "the character was good even when he was bad".

I agree. I think this is the bit I liked best - along with the confirmation of Spike wanting a soul.

Though apparently, even hearing Joss himself say it isn't enough for some people. They still say it's a retcon.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

"Though apparently, even hearing Joss himself say it isn't enough for some people. They still say it's a retcon. "

Yes, I saw at least one example of that. Shrugs.

One more reason that made me happy for this interview is that it seems to have toned down some of the most irritating fanon pieces about vampires in Jossverse, that seemed to have made a return these later times (you know the "vampires can't love", "vampires don't have human feelings", "vampires imagine they have feelings", "Spike was just conditionned by the chip" bla bla bla). I have never understood these interpretations based on the belief that the rules about vampires were definitively set down in season 1 and never evolved later. There's a try to introduce a false coherence in a universe which is sometimes contradictory and were "rules" are in fact loose, supple and adaptated to the needs of the stories being told. I'm not saying there isn't any coherence in the Jossverse, but it's to be found in the individual journeys rather more than in large universe of Buffy that the writers never really bothered to define in details. If you don't want to take into account these facts about the writing of the characters in Btvs then there's a great chance you'll miss a good part of their stories and distort their meaning.

[shapinglight]

Oh I agree, but some people just seem to have this need to compartmentalise everything, particularly when it works in their favour.

For instance the people who yell most loudly about Joss retconning Spike's soul quest are often the same people who get very exercised about every word of Joss's being canon when they feel what he says supports their POV.

[shapinglight]

Any of those would be fine with me.

I'd love to know what Petrie thinks of Riley being a villain in the comic.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I'd love to know what Petrie thinks of Riley being a villain in the comic.

:)))

Damn good question!