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Oct. 29th, 2010 06:10 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shapinglightIt's been pretty quiet in my corner of LJ lately - something I've not done anything to make any better by barely posting except for the occasional fic-writing whinge. I plead RL, plus a dose of Jossverse fandom flu' brought on by the Buffy comics.
Anyway, I thought I would try to get myself back into the habit of making an occasional open post, so here are my random opinions on Jossverse product in general.
Not deep, and I've tried not to get personal, except for once. Also, should anyone feel inclined to leave a comment, I'd appreciate no character/'ship bashing.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: still one of my favourite TV shows, though it's now a very long while since I watched an actual episode. It's really time I did a re-watch (if only to put the whole comics debacle in perspective), but the operative word, sadly, is time, which I just don't seem to have. Still a great show IMO, and Buffy will probably always be Joss's signature character no matter what else he does. Its early seasons show off Joss's strengths as a writer - the wonderful characters, the witty dialogue, the ability to mix genres (drama, soap opera, horror, comedy) with ridiculous ease. The later seasons (which I personally like better) also showcase Joss's willingness to be experimental, not to stick with a tried and tested formula and run it into the ground, but to allow his characters to develop and grow, and also to fuck up monumentally.
However, the later seasons also show a tendency on Joss's part to go for the Big Dramatic Moment at the expense of his characters and then be left scrambling to make up the damage afterwards. I'm referring mainly, of course, to the death of Tara and to the attempted rape in Seeing Red. Boy, did that episode cause a lot of damage, and yet somehow, in a typically Jossian paradox, it still remains a very good episode.
The resultant fall-out from both plots was horrendous, as those who were around at the time will attest, and in the case of Spike, the fandom has been pretty divided ever since. I'm not going to go into details, but yeah, have to say it still hurts to go places in the fandom and see people saying how they can't stand 'that rapist' and how Spuffy in season 7 disgusts them etc and to have to tie yourself in moral knots over the issue just because Joss needed his consciousness raised. Ah well, I suppose if Joss hadn't done some of these controversial things (though, why, oh why, do so many of them have to revolve around Spike?) we would probably have said, "Well, that was nice," packed our bags and wandered off to another fandom years ago.
Angel: I make no bones of loving this show to bits. Angel, who bored me rigid in BtVS, except when he was evil, suddenly became an interesting character, surrounded by other even more interesting characters. Season 3 is my favourite season (I adore Daddy Angel), but I like all of them, except for chunks of 4, Fred's death, and parts of Spike's arc in season 5, which I don't dislike so much as just find irritating. It's odd. This show, like BtVS, also features a lot of Big Dramatic Moments, but I think that with one notable exception, they're handled better than in the parent show. Of course, Joss was more hands off with this show than he was with BtVS (he's openly said that he doesn't really understand Angel), which was possibly a good thing. And yeah, it's not a particularly female- friendly show either, but even though the female characters have a horrible habit of dying horribly, at least they're well-realised(for the most part) and not just cyphers. And at least there's Lilah.
The notable exception I mentioned above, btw, is what happens to Cordelia in season 4, which I hate, and which I think points to a certain vindictive streak in Joss (this is me getting personal that one time), which leads him to take out his dislike of an actor on the character playing them. I'll always be grateful to SMG for being too busy to appear in AtS's 100th episode. If she hadn't been, Cordelia would have probably stayed in a coma forever.
Firefly: Okay, I admit, I really do not like this show. I've never been able to get through all the episodes, and I've never seen Serenity. First reaction on seeing my first ever episode of it, Why the hell should I care what the losers in the American Civil War did in outer space?
I appreciate that's pretty dismissive, and I do intend to watch Serenity some time, as I hear the silly Western stuff is considerably dialled down, but I'm not in a great hurry, and I'm pretty sure that I'll never be more than incredibly unimpressed by Joss's world building skills.
Dr Horrible: Again, I don't get what's so great about this. To me, it looks like what it is - a silly story with silly songs told by a bunch of comic book nerds. Not impressed.
Dollhouse: I haven't seen season 2 of this show yet, though I've stumbled across 3 very major spoilers by accident that have pretty much ruined all the Big Dramatic Moments. However, I did enjoy season 1 very much. Okay, so there were a couple of really duff episodes, but even those had their flashes of Whedon brilliance, and some eps were outstanding. But then there was Epitaph One. :sigh: Also, the concept is well dodgy - enough that I was really taken aback when I realised what it was about. For some reason, it never occurred to me that it was a direction Joss would go in. I need to watch season 2 and then make a final judgement. It's either a flawed masterpiece that was killed off before its time, or exploitative sub-porn tack disguising itself as something deep. Or possibly both.
Comics work
Fray: I've said before that it was reading this comic that years ago made me realise that the things that interested Joss about the Buffyverse and the things that interested me were very different, and Fray's reappearance in the Buffy comic didn't change my opinion. I found the characters tedious, the setting the first example I'd come across then of Joss's crapness as a world builder (and remember, this was back when I loved everything of Joss's that I'd then seen). I just wish he wasn't now twisting a far superior product, BtVS, to fit in with the much inferior Fray.
Astonishing X-Men: I haven't read all of Joss's run on this comic. Can only say that it's pretty obvious how much he loves Kitty Pryde (the template for so many of his female characters), and equally obvious that he's not too keen on Wolverine. In fact, as with so many 'cool' male characters, Joss seems to have an uncontrollable urge to make Wolverine look stupid. This tearing down works fine sometimes - dorky Angel, William the bloody awful poet - not so well when it's someone else's character. Jossian dialogue coming out of Wolverine's mouth is not a good fit.
Buffy season 8: I probably shouldn't say anything about this series. I've enjoyed bits of it, but I suspect when it's over the thing I'll look back on most fondly is probably Xander's relationship with Dracula. Also, I think that Angel-as-Twilight looks like another example of Joss having a cool idea for a Big Dramatic Moment without thinking through the consequences for the character. But we'll see, I suppose.
So that's it. Joss has produced some of my favourite TV ever but he's also at times massively disappointed me. I expect it's the same for most people.
Discuss. Or not.
Anyway, I thought I would try to get myself back into the habit of making an occasional open post, so here are my random opinions on Jossverse product in general.
Not deep, and I've tried not to get personal, except for once. Also, should anyone feel inclined to leave a comment, I'd appreciate no character/'ship bashing.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer: still one of my favourite TV shows, though it's now a very long while since I watched an actual episode. It's really time I did a re-watch (if only to put the whole comics debacle in perspective), but the operative word, sadly, is time, which I just don't seem to have. Still a great show IMO, and Buffy will probably always be Joss's signature character no matter what else he does. Its early seasons show off Joss's strengths as a writer - the wonderful characters, the witty dialogue, the ability to mix genres (drama, soap opera, horror, comedy) with ridiculous ease. The later seasons (which I personally like better) also showcase Joss's willingness to be experimental, not to stick with a tried and tested formula and run it into the ground, but to allow his characters to develop and grow, and also to fuck up monumentally.
However, the later seasons also show a tendency on Joss's part to go for the Big Dramatic Moment at the expense of his characters and then be left scrambling to make up the damage afterwards. I'm referring mainly, of course, to the death of Tara and to the attempted rape in Seeing Red. Boy, did that episode cause a lot of damage, and yet somehow, in a typically Jossian paradox, it still remains a very good episode.
The resultant fall-out from both plots was horrendous, as those who were around at the time will attest, and in the case of Spike, the fandom has been pretty divided ever since. I'm not going to go into details, but yeah, have to say it still hurts to go places in the fandom and see people saying how they can't stand 'that rapist' and how Spuffy in season 7 disgusts them etc and to have to tie yourself in moral knots over the issue just because Joss needed his consciousness raised. Ah well, I suppose if Joss hadn't done some of these controversial things (though, why, oh why, do so many of them have to revolve around Spike?) we would probably have said, "Well, that was nice," packed our bags and wandered off to another fandom years ago.
Angel: I make no bones of loving this show to bits. Angel, who bored me rigid in BtVS, except when he was evil, suddenly became an interesting character, surrounded by other even more interesting characters. Season 3 is my favourite season (I adore Daddy Angel), but I like all of them, except for chunks of 4, Fred's death, and parts of Spike's arc in season 5, which I don't dislike so much as just find irritating. It's odd. This show, like BtVS, also features a lot of Big Dramatic Moments, but I think that with one notable exception, they're handled better than in the parent show. Of course, Joss was more hands off with this show than he was with BtVS (he's openly said that he doesn't really understand Angel), which was possibly a good thing. And yeah, it's not a particularly female- friendly show either, but even though the female characters have a horrible habit of dying horribly, at least they're well-realised(for the most part) and not just cyphers. And at least there's Lilah.
The notable exception I mentioned above, btw, is what happens to Cordelia in season 4, which I hate, and which I think points to a certain vindictive streak in Joss (this is me getting personal that one time), which leads him to take out his dislike of an actor on the character playing them. I'll always be grateful to SMG for being too busy to appear in AtS's 100th episode. If she hadn't been, Cordelia would have probably stayed in a coma forever.
Firefly: Okay, I admit, I really do not like this show. I've never been able to get through all the episodes, and I've never seen Serenity. First reaction on seeing my first ever episode of it, Why the hell should I care what the losers in the American Civil War did in outer space?
I appreciate that's pretty dismissive, and I do intend to watch Serenity some time, as I hear the silly Western stuff is considerably dialled down, but I'm not in a great hurry, and I'm pretty sure that I'll never be more than incredibly unimpressed by Joss's world building skills.
Dr Horrible: Again, I don't get what's so great about this. To me, it looks like what it is - a silly story with silly songs told by a bunch of comic book nerds. Not impressed.
Dollhouse: I haven't seen season 2 of this show yet, though I've stumbled across 3 very major spoilers by accident that have pretty much ruined all the Big Dramatic Moments. However, I did enjoy season 1 very much. Okay, so there were a couple of really duff episodes, but even those had their flashes of Whedon brilliance, and some eps were outstanding. But then there was Epitaph One. :sigh: Also, the concept is well dodgy - enough that I was really taken aback when I realised what it was about. For some reason, it never occurred to me that it was a direction Joss would go in. I need to watch season 2 and then make a final judgement. It's either a flawed masterpiece that was killed off before its time, or exploitative sub-porn tack disguising itself as something deep. Or possibly both.
Comics work
Fray: I've said before that it was reading this comic that years ago made me realise that the things that interested Joss about the Buffyverse and the things that interested me were very different, and Fray's reappearance in the Buffy comic didn't change my opinion. I found the characters tedious, the setting the first example I'd come across then of Joss's crapness as a world builder (and remember, this was back when I loved everything of Joss's that I'd then seen). I just wish he wasn't now twisting a far superior product, BtVS, to fit in with the much inferior Fray.
Astonishing X-Men: I haven't read all of Joss's run on this comic. Can only say that it's pretty obvious how much he loves Kitty Pryde (the template for so many of his female characters), and equally obvious that he's not too keen on Wolverine. In fact, as with so many 'cool' male characters, Joss seems to have an uncontrollable urge to make Wolverine look stupid. This tearing down works fine sometimes - dorky Angel, William the bloody awful poet - not so well when it's someone else's character. Jossian dialogue coming out of Wolverine's mouth is not a good fit.
Buffy season 8: I probably shouldn't say anything about this series. I've enjoyed bits of it, but I suspect when it's over the thing I'll look back on most fondly is probably Xander's relationship with Dracula. Also, I think that Angel-as-Twilight looks like another example of Joss having a cool idea for a Big Dramatic Moment without thinking through the consequences for the character. But we'll see, I suppose.
So that's it. Joss has produced some of my favourite TV ever but he's also at times massively disappointed me. I expect it's the same for most people.
Discuss. Or not.
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Date: 2010-10-29 05:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-29 07:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-29 05:45 pm (UTC)Funnily enough, I actually really liked the finale-that-wasn't-Epitaph-Two, though loads of people didn't. I thought it was really well-constructed, especially in the way it presented Echo, which I think agreed with my reading of her all the way through the show. Epitaph Two was quite good, I suppose (according to my review at the time I liked it), but on reflection it is very Joss. In both a good and a bad way. The episode before felt much fresher as an ending.
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Date: 2010-10-29 08:55 pm (UTC)When I finally get around to watching Epitaph Two, I'll go back and read what you thought. I disliked Epitaph One quite a lot, apart from Amy Acker, and the flashbacks. So typical Joss really - some brilliant stuff and also some stuff that makes you think, oh for heavens sake!
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Date: 2010-10-30 02:04 pm (UTC)I really, really agree, but the acting and the directing are superb. This scene in my icon is so beautifully shot. Jonathan Frakes did amazing work.
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Date: 2010-10-30 03:03 pm (UTC)Oh, definitely!
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Date: 2010-10-29 05:50 pm (UTC)I never lost my love of AtS. It was far from perfect. Season 1 had some boring stretches, I hate what was done to Cordy. And there were problems in Season 5. But I love my dead gay show.
Firefly. I too thought the world building sucked. The whole 'verse made no damn sense to me and I could never overcome that fatal flaw.
Dollhouse: I was so squicked by the premise that I never even tried to watch it. I only saw the finale and the only thing in it that stuck with me (other than an eerie resemblance to the Stephen King novel "Cell") was a scene that I thought by all rights was a post-Chosen scene honoring Spuffy that we never got. And with the comics and its epic fail 'reunion' are never going to get.
Comics: Crack. Oh, there's some interesting ideas wandering around here and there but it's more than a bit of Frankenstein's monster, stitched together so obviously and so poorly that the spark that created it really only created a pitiable monster.
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Date: 2010-10-29 06:14 pm (UTC)Oh yeah. And the thing was, that scene really got me exactly because it sounded like Buffy talking Spuffy, yet Dollhouse never earnt that in my opinion. On the other hand, we get Spike and Buffy together again and it feels like there is nothing of that emotion. That's the sort of thing that makes me think Joss likes dicking around with his fans.
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Date: 2010-10-29 07:19 pm (UTC)And in doing so, he dicks around with the characters, and in doing so, dicks around with the narrative.
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Date: 2010-10-29 09:03 pm (UTC)[insert anglo-saxon gutteral word here] you, Joss!
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Date: 2010-10-29 10:27 pm (UTC)Seconded. It's at moments like that you end up wanting Joss's 'give people what they need, not what they want' to come back and choke him.
Not fatally, of course, but enough to give him a bit of a scare. ;)
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Date: 2010-10-29 10:25 pm (UTC)I never used to think that before the comics. Now it's far too easy to believe.
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Date: 2010-10-29 10:24 pm (UTC)Yes, I've heard it described as lightning in a bottle, in that Joss has never quite managed to match it. He said he set out to create an iconic character and he really did. The show's been a template for so many other things, good and bad.
After that, I think that pretty much everything Joss has produced is running to catch up - though AtS is sort of at one remove and has its own particular feel. Everything else has been a very mixed bag - definite progression in some areas, development of particular themes etc, but also an atrophying of particular tropes that keep recurring. I think that the best episodes of Dollhouse easily match anything from BtVS for being thoroughly gripping, but there's not a single episode of BtVS (IMO) that's as bad as the poorer episodes of Dollhouse - except for Bad Eggs, maybe.
As for the comics, I just don't think Joss is a very good comic book writer and I think the dissassociation between him and the fans - by which I mean his tendency to give fans what they want in a horribly skewed way - just doesn't work in the comics medium the way it did more often than not in the show - though of course when it didn't work in the show, as with the AR, it didn't work with far more spectacular consequences.
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-01 05:47 pm (UTC)I would certainly put the death of Fred in that category.
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Date: 2010-10-29 05:58 pm (UTC)As for "Angel", I think the story of "Angel" resonated more for me in the end, because it was a story about being a grown-up rather than about becoming a grown-up. And since I was already quite distant from high school when I started watching "Buffy", that part never grabbed me in quite the same way as Angel's moral quandaries did. (I love season 4, but I do think season 3 is very underrated!)
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Date: 2010-10-29 10:38 pm (UTC)I do love the show, but I rather agree. Meeting people online, talking about the characters, writing fic - those things I've probably enjoyed more than the actual show, good though it was.
because it was a story about being a grown-up rather than about becoming a grown-up. And since I was already quite distant from high school when I started watching "Buffy", that part never grabbed me in quite the same way
This is why I prefer the later seasons to the earlier ones. Not only was Buffy more my daughters' age than mine when I started watching the show but her high school experience was totally different. More like anthropology for me than anything I recognised (well, not quite, but I hope you know what I mean?)
but I do think season 3 is very underrated!)
:) Season 3 gets a bad press, for some reason. I can see why people might dislike season 4 (there's some great stuff in it, but Evil!Cordy spoils it for me), but season 3 is always being compared unfavourably to, say, season 2, and I think it's way better - except for a slight sticky patch in the middle, but season 2 has that as well.
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Date: 2010-10-29 06:17 pm (UTC)My tastes aren't in exact alignment with yours, though I think we're pretty close. I'm a bigger fan of absurdity and space opera, plus having an interest in American history, so Dr. Horrible and Firefly are big fun for me, while the problems you have with Angel are the things that make it almost intolerable to me. God, I love each and every supporting character so much on AtS (except Connor?), but my antipathy for the "hero" and the torture of the women make it not so great for me. The bottom line is that I'm not a fan of tragedy. Except when I am.
All his comics work? Iffy. I really liked Sugarshock, but Gilbert Hernandez and Peter Bagge did almost the same thing about 5-8 years earlier for DC in a (paper) comic called Yeah!, which makes it less groundbreaking in my eyes. There's things in S8 I like, things I really don't, and everything else has been pretty meh. Runaways, anyone?
But it all comes down to those incredible seven seasons of Buffy, and for that alone I'll always put him in my pantheon of brilliant auteurs.
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Date: 2010-10-29 10:47 pm (UTC)I think she has a point too. I don't know where Joss is going with that, I really don't. And some of the same themes can be seen in the comic too. Very odd. Maybe he's taking his Alan Moore worship a little too far?
I enjoyed the metaphor of prostitution in Dollhouse because it asked some hard questions about just what is the price for anybody's virtue, if virtue can include things like heart, soul, ethics, etc. I can definitely see how looking past the surface would be too squicky to ever get to the metaphor, though.
I enjoyed that aspect too, but I did always have this nagging feeling in the back of my mind that there must be plenty of members of the audience (if the show had had an audience) who actually don't get the metaphor and think it's just a show about having your own biddable human dolly, what fun!
God, I love each and every supporting character so much on AtS (except Connor?), but my antipathy for the "hero" and the torture of the women make it not so great for me.
I rather like Connor, or maybe I like the concept of him? He's a great angst-bringer, and I like the idea of him as Angel's one true love. As for the torture of women part, I agree it can get really, really bad (the death of Fred is pretty disgusting for all sorts of reasons - :is a militant Fred fan:), but then again, those female characters are some of the best I've seen on TV. I adore Cordy, Lilah and Fred, and Darla is probably my favourite femal Buffyverse character ever.
I've not read Sugarshock but it doesn't particularly surprise me to learn it's derivative of something else.
But it all comes down to those incredible seven seasons of Buffy, and for that alone I'll always put him in my pantheon of brilliant auteurs.
Yep, though personally I'd include AtS (though I don't really think of AtS as Joss's baby, more Greenwalt's baby), and a handful of Dollhouse episodes. I love The Man in the Street.
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:23 pm (UTC)The death of Fred?
Hell, the complete disempowerment and (dismemberment) of every single female character on the show is... let's just say the original western creator of tragedy, ancient greek culture, couldn't be more proud of it's mysogynistic descendant.
Buffy! Bitchy clingy ex-highschool-girlfriend. No slayer left in her on AtS.
Kate! Disempowered, psychotic, insignificant.
Gwen! Disempowered (for her own good! So she can give good orgasms! Blech!)
Anne! Nurturing, powerless, insignificant.
Cordy! Well...
Darla! Well...
Fred! Well...
Lilah! Well...
Eve! Well...
Justine! Don't get me started! Tortured and (finally murdered by the "good" guys).
Faith! has probably the most left in her, but only after a complete surrender and disempowerment. Even later, when she returns, she has to sacrifice herself to be of value.
Uhm. Sorry. I nerdrage a bit about this aspect of AtS. ;-)
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Date: 2010-11-01 05:51 pm (UTC)Which is not to say that it couldn't have been done better, though at least it did show pretty clearly that Joss's feminism, while I'm sure he means what he says, isn't as feminist as he likes to think.
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Date: 2010-11-01 08:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-02 11:20 am (UTC)As for Lilah, she was evil
Awesome, though. I singled her out for that reason. In fact, AtS is full of great female characters. They just keep coming to sticky ends.
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Date: 2010-11-02 11:15 am (UTC)I do think AtS is interesting as it re-introduced tragedy into contemporary pop culture. And i actually agree with You about strong female characters on that show. It is just the way every single female character gets offed in the most horrible way possible. (Apart from Anne - but then i do have some difficulties swallowing her story within the framework of the AtS narrative, unless i take her stance in NFA as the true heroic way as opposed to Angel's anarcho-turned-fascist-turned-anarcho step dance of "heroism". Because, if Angel is the true hero, then Anne is definetly doing the "little women's work", nurturing kids and ultimately not really changing the world - which i don't agree with, her work is needed and important in this world. Unless, she is the hero and Angel is just a protagonist with delusions of grandeur. ;-))
So, above was me blowing things slightly out of proportion. ;-) Like Justine: We don't know if Wesley murdered her but the implications of his actions - kidnapping and caging and abusing do have rape written all over it - are truly horrible and point (at least metaphorically) in that direction.
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Date: 2010-11-02 03:40 pm (UTC)And I really don't think Anne is being set up to look unimportant next to Angel. I'm not saying that they weren't trying to make Angel look heroic, even if his plan was a stupid one born of despair, because it was the last episode after all, but I do think Anne's inclusion was meant to show that some people at least had learned the lesson that Angel seemed to have learned in season 2 and then forgotten again, about if nothing you do matters all that matters is what you do. Anne epitomises that and it's the most seminal moment in the show IMO.
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Date: 2010-10-29 06:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-29 10:58 pm (UTC)I think they might, though I do think that the first three seasons of BtVS would probably look pretty dated. The last BtVS I watched was Prophecy Girl from season 1 some time last year, and it definitely did.
But it was still good. What's more, I think AtS would survive better because of the noir feel.
I suspect I'm not really a fannish type of person (whatever that might be) despite that fact that I became involved enough with Buffy and Angel to spend a lot of time reading and writing in that fandom.
Ah well, that's probably what Sue was getting at when she described these shows as lightning in a bottle. It was certainly that for some of us, who have never felt fannish about anything else. Not that I haven't- I'm probably more fannish than you - but I haven't to the extent of wanting to write fanfic and that's pretty much become the fandom yardstick for me.
Still very fond of your humour pieces, especially the various spelunking in Spike's bottom ones. What a host of things are there.
Most extensive cave system in Europe. :)
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Date: 2010-10-29 07:24 pm (UTC)I never did like AtS, I much prefer Dollhouse. Dollhouse has a dodgy premise, but had so much potential for exploring all sorts of boundaries associated with what makes us human in relation to our interface with technology and science (a bit like Dark Angel in that respect, but is far more successful in getting into those issues(especially in season 2) than that show).
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:01 pm (UTC)Hmm, never seen anyone put it quite like that before, but I do know what you mean. The whole fandom experience has definitely enhanced my involvement in the show, even if sometimes it's been in rather a negative way.
Dollhouse has a dodgy premise, but had so much potential for exploring all sorts of boundaries associated with what makes us human in relation to our interface with technology and science
Quite true. I think it was a very interesting concept at times a bit clumsily handled, but how much of that clumsiness was down to Joss and how much to Fox and Joss trying to please Fox, we'll probably never know.
I wonder how he'd handle an HBO series?
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:11 pm (UTC)I think Joss' interest in the concept (i.e. the dodgy exploration of sexuality) was at odds with the show's obvious strengths (the exploration of moral ambiguity in all it's forms and who a person is). Once the show was cancelled and they had to look at those points to wrap it up, I think it got better. I much prefer season 2 for that reason.
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Date: 2010-11-01 05:53 pm (UTC)I am a little puzzled that Joss ever thought the concept had longevity to start with, but oh well. Will post what I thought of it when I get around to watching season 2.
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Date: 2010-10-29 07:59 pm (UTC)I watched Firefly and Serneity and they were okay, but I didn't feel that same connection with the characters. They're not nearly as well-rounded. If they were, I could live with the crappy world building.
Only watched Dollhouse once and didn't care for it.
And the comics? Two-dimensional in more ways than one.
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:04 pm (UTC)Oh absolutely. It's one of his major strengths.
which is why it hurt when he had them do horrible things or have horrible things happen to them. In my view, that's one of the reasons why there's so much fanfic written in these fandoms, even today: Buffy, Spike, et al (and their relationships with each other) remain interesting to read (and write) about.
Yes, I agree. In part, that longevity is down to frustration, but I don't think that alone would keep the fandom going. The characters have to be engaging, even if you hate them. And they are.
And the comics? Two-dimensional in more ways than one.
They have their moments, but mostly - yes, I agree.
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Date: 2010-10-29 09:58 pm (UTC)It certainly is for me. I loved Buffy and Angel and I'm sure you're right that Buffy will always be Joss's signature character (and I wonder how happy he is about that); I like "Firefly, but didn't love it; had issues with Doctor Horrible and even bigger issues with Dollhouse.
I did enjoy Astonishing X-Men, though Joss's devotion to Kitty Pryde made all of my issues about Willow come to the surface, but I thought it was more controlled than the mayhem of Buffy Season 8.
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Date: 2010-10-29 11:07 pm (UTC)Less than happy sometimes, I should think, but I'm sure he always bears in mind that he set out to create an iconic character and succeeded. Not many people can say that.
I did enjoy Astonishing X-Men, though Joss's devotion to Kitty Pryde made all of my issues about Willow come to the surface, but I thought it was more controlled than the mayhem of Buffy Season 8.
I'll have to make myself finish his run on the book some times. Like with Firefly, it's not that they don't hold any entertainment value for me at all, but I can take them or leave them, and in Firefly's case, and much more inclined to leave them.
My 2 cents
Date: 2010-10-30 04:36 am (UTC)I didn't ever really click with Angel. I watched a lot of it out of a sense of duty. Its story arcs were better-constructed than those on Buffy but the humour was not as prevalent or (usually) as clever. Everyone got a raw deal, really, but especially the women, marvellous as many of them were. That said, my favourite Angel episode is one of my favourites of any show - "The Girl in Question", which I find hilarious on each repeat viewing.
Firefly has some enjoyable characters but, I agree, pretty poor world-building. I'll rewatch it sometime but I don't feel fannish about it.
Dr Horrible is What Joss Did on His Holidays. There's not a lot of substance to it, but I do rewatch the last five minutes for the sudden shift in tone and the amusing evil villains.
I've read Fray but can't remember much of it, so make of that what you will.
Started both Dollhouse and his other comics but didn't get very far. I might try again later.
Re: My 2 cents
Date: 2010-11-01 05:58 pm (UTC)I agree it was pretty touch going at times. Season 6 turned me into a spoiler whore. After SR, I couldn't stand any more of Joss's Big Dramatic Moments without being well prepared for them.
Which, oddly, wasn't the case with AtS, so though I say I love it to bits (I do), and I am definitely more distanced from it and don't mind so much what awful things happen to people. I never went looking for spoilers for AtS until season 5.
I wonder what you would think of Dollhouse if you saw the rest of it? People often say you have to get to ep 5 before it's any good, but have to say I didn't feel that way. I loved it from ep 1 onwards, and then was sporadically disappointed when certain episodes did turn out to be pretty dire - and in a way that struck me as run-of-the-mill US TV series dire, rather than Joss Whedon dire, which is how I would characterise some of the not so good eps from BtVS seasons 1&2, such as Bad Eggs.
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Date: 2010-10-30 08:02 am (UTC)Never seen Dollhouse, and thought Doctor Horrible fun, but fluffy, and quite a good showcase for Joss' way of creating.
Suspect I might like Fray, but haven't bothered to hunt it down.
Sorry for being so brief. It's very early...
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Date: 2010-11-01 06:00 pm (UTC)I never could understand why people went so nuts over Dr Horrible. It didn't do anything for me at all, and yet you'd go on Whedonesque and see people talking about it as if it were War & Peace.
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Date: 2010-10-30 11:50 pm (UTC)re Firefly -
Why the hell should I care what the losers in the American Civil War did in outer space?
Yeah, it does sound dismissive, but you are entitled to dismiss whatever you want, but it just makes me a little sad because I loved these characters. I mean, why would you care about a bunch of California high school kids? And as far as the setup, well I guess I suspend my need for total logic when I watch any scifi show. But if you have given it a try, and it just doesn't grab you, then there it is.
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Date: 2010-11-01 06:03 pm (UTC)The last serious BtVS re-watch I did was of Season 1, and I found it held up pretty well too, even though the clothes and props looked pretty dated. But then, since the American high school is such an alien environment to me, I doubt I would know one way or the other so it takes on a timeless feel for me for that reason.
Sorry for not liking Firefly. I will try to finish all the eps and watch Serenity one day. I did like some of the characters - notably, Simon and River - but sadly I really disliked others and that probably impacted in a big way on my ability to suspend my disbelief.
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Date: 2010-10-31 04:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-01 06:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-01 06:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-03 01:57 pm (UTC)Dollhouse... dunno. I kind of like it, but I think you can't use rape metaphors for actual rape. Like, if he's making points about violation, identity, bodily integrity etc, he shouldn't have ACTUAL RAPE happen as well. *sighs* I am not explaining this well but Dan Hemmens over on ferretbrain does.
BUFFY WILL WIN FOREVER.
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Date: 2010-11-06 08:47 pm (UTC)BUFFY WILL WIN FOREVER.
I doubt Joss will ever write anything that outclasses it.
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Date: 2010-11-07 01:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-11-08 03:56 pm (UTC)