Game of Thrones ep 2 (the clueless about the books POV)

[shapinglight]

I just watched ep 2 of Game of Thrones.

Thoughts within, and I've never read the books so please don't spoiler me, except I'd be grateful if someone could tell me, just how long are the seasons supposed to last in this place?



Well, one thing's for sure, there still isn't a lot of humour in it, and what there is revolves around my favourite character so far, Tyrion Lanister (see icon). Not that the character is humorous in himself, but I love his dry wit and the fact that he sees so clearly through people. We didn't see much of the horrid blond prince in ep 1, but you could tell just from his face that he'd be very slappable, and given what happens in this ep, I'm glad someone did actually slap him, and I'm also glad it was Tyrion. Much more humiliating to be slapped by someone shorter than you.

A lot happened in this episode to make the characters more rounded. For instance, the horrid queen's horrid behaviour about her horrid son was sort of balanced (sort of) by her confession to Catelyn about the loss of her baby. Meanwhile Catelyn's heroic defence of her own son was balanced out by her nasty treatment of Jon the bastard. In fact, so far the only people who come across as thoroughly decent all the way through are the bastard himself and Eddard Stark, so I suppose it'll be their turn to do something dodgy next week?

Lots of very good scenes, including Jon's farewell to Arya (love that character) and Catelyn's defence of Bran against the assassin, and everything at the end to do with the horrid blond prince, Sansa, Arya and the poor dire wolf was just very well done. There were also lots of hints about stuff we don't know about yet. For instance, why did the other horrid blond prince (the long haired one) and his sister (Danyrys) go into exile? What is up with the Lanisters? What is lurking the other side of that wall? Just how long will winter last for? Who is Jon Snow's mother? Etc, etc. It feels a little like watching a very intricate tapestry being woven, which I love.

I also think that so far the show is managing to skate the fine line between high fantasy and 'it's all a bit silly' very successfully, mainly because the acting is so good, so the actors can get away with saying things that taken out of context would seem daft (not that the scripts are bad, but it's all in the delivery). I hope they can keep it up.

However, the Danyrys plot is still unlikeable bordering on icky. This episode was better than the first one, in that at least Dany made an attempt to get some agency and at least the only one who got naked was Khal Drogo. Also, Iain Glen's character (whose name I've missed repeatedly) is quite interesting. Could have done without the almost-hot-lesbian-sex-scene, though, even if it did have a point. Also, I think it'll be easier for me to get along with this part of the plot if Danyrys and Khal Drogo ever have an actual conversation (assuming he knows any words other than 'no.')

One final thing: what's happened to Jon Snow's dire wolf? Did it die? And how come the others grew up so quickly? I'm sure when Bran was pushed off that tower his wolf was still a puppy. Now, suddenly, it's all grown up.

Hmm, just re-read what I've written. I think I must have enjoyed it.

ETA: flake_sake tells me that in the book, Jon Snow's dire wolf (the white one) is supposed to still be around. Wonder where it's got to?

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'm very glad you're liking it (because I love reading your reviews)!

I loved Tyrion in this episode, he's almost exactly as I imagined him from the book and his eye for how things really are is extremely attractive. He's very Spike that way.

I love Arya too and also how Ned is shown with his kids. I guess Eddard really is "the good guy" in a way or at least the honourable guy, but in the end preserving one moral concept often harms others.

Viserys and Daenerys are either the kids of the old mad king or his son (I don't remember). They were small children when Robert took over and were rescued somehow. Robert killed every Targaryen offspring he could get his hands on to stabilize his claim to the throne and in this episode he even muses aloud about sending an assassin to the remaining children.

[shapinglight]

I'm very glad you're liking it (because I love reading your reviews)!

Thank you. I like reading yours too. I do hope I eventually get the hang of who everyone is. So far, I'm fairly clear about most people, but there are still one or two I'm unsure of. I'd thought that skinny bloke hanging around with the Stark sons was one of them. This ep shows he's clearly not. A minion, then?

I guess Eddard really is "the good guy" in a way or at least the honourable guy, but in the end preserving one moral concept often harms others.

It's also a bit difficult to go on being honourable when other people you rely on aren't. What happened to the poor wolf was so unfair, and the poor boy! That was horrid.

Viserys and Daenerys are either the kids of the old mad king or his son (I don't remember).

Ah, okay. Are all their family blond like that? I was wondering if the fact the Lanisters are so blond was a clue about their connection.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

The skinny guy is Theon Greyjoy, he gets important in the later books (seasons). They'll probably explain what he is doing at Winterfell when it becomes important to the story.

There are a gazillion characters, the books all have 30 pages of character lists...but fortunately the real important ones stick quickly enough.

It's also a bit difficult to go on being honourable when other people you rely on aren't.

Exactly, sure the Targaryen king was a tyrant, but Robert is not really a revelation as a king either and the Lannisters have a lot more power now then they had.

And yes, the thing with the wolf and the boy is horrible. It's kind of a first sign of how dangerous and cruel the south really is.

Are all their family blond like that?

Yes, the silver hair is kinda their trademark (but it doesn't connect them to Lannisters who are more yellow). They married brother to sister for ages, which accounts for all the madness in the family and the conserved weird looks.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Robert is a good warrior/soldier, but he's a very disinterested king and terrible husband. Someone somewhere the other day pointed out that Joffrey (the little arse) really is the result of bad parenting. His mother has fed his sense of privilege and entitlement his entire life, and she's quite crafty. Robert, meanwhile, has set an example of the King getting what he wants, behaving as loutishly as he wants, and not having to do all that much, leaving the responsibility for running the country to his Hand.

Basically, Joffrey has learned a lot of really bad things by example and thus has the potential to become a very bad king.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I agree. That's also what is so hard about Jeoffrey , he really is just a kid and the product of his heritage and upbringing. He did not have to become such an asshole but he is and him becommig king is pretty much a horror vision (similar to Viserys).

[shapinglight]

Basically, Joffrey has learned a lot of really bad things by example and thus has the potential to become a very bad king.

And well done that actor for portraying a nasty little s**t so convincingly. I hope at least Sansa has seen him for what he is now.

[shapinglight]

They'll probably explain what he is doing at Winterfell when it becomes important to the story.

I expect so. Should get the place names straight in my head. Winterfell is the Stark home, right?

but Robert is not really a revelation as a king either

I'm certainly not very impressed with him.

They married brother to sister for ages, which accounts for all the madness in the family and the conserved weird looks.

Ah, is there ever any explanation for all the incest, or is it just implied that's what evil people do?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Ah, is there ever any explanation for all the incest, or is it just implied that's what evil people do?

I think it's implied that it's a quirk of royal dynasties. It's a Targaryen thing and they are/were not all evil. Actually they have had some quite good kings and there is a set of short stories by Martin about an old Targaryen prince who is the real deal. With other families it's a tabu, Cersei and Jamie kinda mimic the Tararyens in doing it and in the book there is a lot emphasis on how much Cersei and Jamie only value their own rules and the world can go fuck itself (which in many ways is understandable once you get to know Daddy Lannister).

[shapinglight]

I see. That does strike me as a little odd, but only because I associate the 'quirk of royal dynasties' incest thing with Ancient Egypt rather than with people who look more like a bunch of Anglo Saxons. However, it is something that crops up a lot in mythology all over the world, usually as a bad thing, ie. King Arthur and Morgause.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Really? I never thought of it in context with egypt, more with France and Austria and so on. And yes, usually it is used as a sign of corruption or something.

It's similar here though there is no real good or bad side in the story. The Lannisters are as evil as they come and Tyrion is still the hero of the piece.

[shapinglight]

I never thought of it in context with egypt,

Well, the Egyptian pharaohs did tradtionally marry their sisters, didn't they? Even if it was only symbolically. I was wondering if the Targaryen thing was presented in that way, as a dynastic necessity, rather than horrid goings on behind closed doors like the Queen and her brother in ep 1.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yes, the Targaryens themselves see it as a distinguished tradition (also because they wanted to keep the ability to control dragons intact). But in the seven kingdoms, where they were basically invaders it reads like it was considered a bit icky.

[shapinglight]

Ah. I suspect the ancient Egyptian custom was probably regarded similarly by other peoples around them.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I'm so delighted that you're enjoying the series - it's actually very refreshing (and somewhat reassuring) to read the POV of someone who hasn't read the books, since that means the series sort of works on its own.

In answer to your question (none of the following is spoilery just collating the information that Robert and Tyrion gave in the episode): The old King was a Targaryen, the father of Viserys & Danaerys (the girl married off to the Dothraki lord). Jaime Lannister killed the old king, and his sister Cersei married Robert, who won the throne with the help of Ned Stark, whose father, sister and one brother were killed by Targaryens. The father of Jaime, Cersei and Tyrion was Hand (the position Ned has now) to the old King. So the Lannisters have been close to the throne for a couple of generations.

Secondly, I couldn't decide whether Cersei's story was 100% true, partially true, or a lie told to allay Catelyn's suspicions that she might be involved in Bran's accident. But I lean to partially true :D

And lastly, I actually thought the Dany/Drogo scenes worked quite well for me, because she has decided to take her fate into her own hands as much as possible, learning Dothraki and learning how to make Drogo see her as a person and not as an object that he's purchased. I also liked that in the scene where they have sex facing each other - as Doreah (the slave girl) said, the eyes show the soul, etc., etc. - Dany is clothed and Drogo isn't. It sort of evens their playing field, as it were. And her learning Dothraki is a contrast to her brother who continues to despise the people whose help he wants.

[shapinglight]

I'm so delighted that you're enjoying the series - it's actually very refreshing (and somewhat reassuring) to read the POV of someone who hasn't read the books, since that means the series sort of works on its own

It's working pretty well for me so far, and I'm sure I can't be the only one. It's so difficult to put high fantasy on the screen without it coming across as a bit ridiculous. The LotR movies more or less managed it, and so far so does this. I think the two productions have similarities that help them to work, which is that despite the fantasy elements and the odd names, the settings and characters are very physical. There's dirt, people look tired etc. And in fact, GoT works better IMO because it doesn't have the faintly pompous, irritating elements LotR has, like elves etc. I also think the fact that the series doesn't shy away from the sex and violence helps in that, not to mention the people are in general more interesting. It grounds it - makes it a lot more believable. Not to mention, this being HBO, the cast is exceptional, like it was in Rome.

Which is not to say there aren't some elements that can tip over into being a bit silly. Your recap - which I enjoyed very much - shows that.

Thanks for all the info. There's been so much of it I've obviously failed to take much of it in.

Re: what you say about Dany and Drogo, I agree it was a lot better than in the first episode, and I think the way HBO has done this works a lot better than what I understand happens in the book. It only makes sense that if Dany ever wanted things to be better between them, she was going to have to make the first move. Drogo wasn't going to. He already had what he wanted. I hope they have an actual conversation soon.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

They didn't feature Jon's direwolf (Ghost is his name) but he's still there. Jon kept him and Ghost is with him at the wall.

It's been approximately a month since Bran fell so the pups grew... but they're not full grown for direwolves. Full grown, they're supposedly nearly as large as a horse. I wonder how the show is going to handle that part.

Meanwhile Catelyn's heroic defence of her own son was balanced out by her nasty treatment of Jon the bastard. In fact, so far the only people who come across as thoroughly decent all the way through are the bastard himself and Eddard Stark, so I suppose it'll be their turn to do something dodgy next week?
Jon and Ned are both pretty decent all the way through everything that I've read. Jon can be a bit bullheaded and prideful and Ned can be somewhat inflexible, but they're both reasonably honorable characters... again with the caveat based on what I know. I gather that GRRM's view is that good and evil is a choice men make with their hearts every day, not an immutable state.

For instance, why did the other horrid blond prince (the long haired one) and his sister (Danyrys) go into exile?
That's basically been explained, though with so much exposition going on it's easy to have missed it. Danerys and Viserys are the children of the deposed "Mad King" that Robert overthrew. Because Danerys and Visery's brother took Robert's fiance/Ned's sister captive and she subsequently died, Robert became so enraged and filled with hatred that he killed not only their elder brother but their brother's children. And Robert vowed to kill all the Targaryen children. Visery's and Danery's (pregnant) mother fled and subsequently gave birth to Danerys (and died. I don't know the details about that though). The last Targaryen siblings have been in exhile, out of Robert's reach, ever since.

Viserys wants to go back and reclaim the throne from Robert. Robert wants to send an assassin after Danerys 'before she can breed', and Ned thinks that's pretty barbaric (that was part of the discussion they were having in the field).

Oh and the seasons last... however long. There isn't a set length. The rule of thumb is that the winter is approximately as long as the summer, and in this case it has been summer for ten years.

[shapinglight]

They didn't feature Jon's direwolf (Ghost is his name) but he's still there. Jon kept him and Ghost is with him at the wall.

Good. Bit odd he wasn't on the journey, and a bit difficult to pretend he was there and we just didn't notice, when he's white and hard to miss.

Full grown, they're supposedly nearly as large as a horse. I wonder how the show is going to handle that part.

Possibly they'll just ignore it altogether. Not much of a dog fan myself, btw, but beautiful, beautiful dogs.

I gather that GRRM's view is that good and evil is a choice men make with their hearts every day, not an immutable state.

Would he also say that people can have a propensity to lean more one way or the other?

Oh and the seasons last... however long. There isn't a set length. The rule of thumb is that the winter is approximately as long as the summer, and in this case it has been summer for ten years.

I see. I'm not sure I believe a civilisation could survive a ten year winter, but I suppose if you're used to it you'd be prepared.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

In addition to the other comments above? As far as I can tell from the books, a season lasts at least two-three years. In the books the seasons are metaphors for who is in power or the conflicts. Appears to be the same here. At the moment - they are in Fall not Winter.

In the second episode King Robert alludes to killing all the Tarragyns and their children. Viserys and Danerys are the last of the Tarragyns - of the entire line.

Regarding Danerys? If it helps, her storyline grated on my nerves in Game of Thrones as well. It took me a very long time to like that character or her arc.

I'm guessing the tv series is skipping over certain bits to consolidate. flake_sake is right - there are a gazillion characters. Martin deliberately created a series of books he felt could not be filmed or adapted in another medium - which meant a cast of thousands, and over 30 points of view.

At any rate - glad you are enjoying the tv series - because I'm curious to see how it works for people who haven't read the novels. It appears to work for some and not for others. (shrugs)

[shapinglight]

In the second episode King Robert alludes to killing all the Tarragyns and their children. Viserys and Danerys are the last of the Tarragyns - of the entire line.

I expect so. I should probably watch both eps again, or write myself a chart.

It appears to work for some and not for others

Always the way, I suppose.