Game of Thrones ep 5 (the clueless about the books POV)

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Just finished watching this. Spoilers for the ep behind cut.



Well, that was far and away the most fast-paced, not to mention bloodthirsty, episode so far. I had to look away several times. Okay, Tyrion, I get it. You want to make sure the bloke you are hitting with that shield is dead. Do we viewers have to make sure along with you? Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants that Mountain person to go down really, really hard after what he did to the poor horse. And what happened to Ned Stark's man at the end (forgotten his name)? :shudder: I hate anything nasty to do with eyes.

All that said, it was a terrific episode. Lots and lots going on. I gather, from reading what other people have been saying that neither the Robert/Cersei scene nor the Littlefinger/Lord Wotsit the eunuch scenes were in the book. I thought they were both terrific scenes, especially the first one, which didn't make either character any more likeable, but gave them both a great deal more depth. They've been married for 17 years, after all. They have to call the occasional truce or they'd go mad.

Other great stuff: King Robert's brother (can't remember his name either) and his lover, the Knight of the Rose, having their little chat, though can't for the life of me think why the lover thinks it's a good idea to try and persuade the king's brother he'd make a good king. It's pretty much like saying, "I want you to die horribly!" I'd be interested to know how their relationship differs from the book, if it does, and also how GRRM imagines people in Westeros responding to homosexuality, if anyone cared to tell me. I also very much liked the Hound (?) saving the lover - the Knight of the Rose bloke - from the Mountain. What a nasty, nasty man!

Elsewhere, both Arya and Tryion continue to be awesome, however I'm getting very confused by these recruitment people from the Wall, who all look the same - unless the one who turned up in Kingslanding and spoke to Ned Stark is in fact the same person who Tyrion gets on so well with. Was he? I sort of hope so for his sake, because I think being a captive of Catelyn Stark's sister is probably not a lot of fun. Certainly, Tyrion didn't seem to be enjoying himself (and who is this Maud - did I get that right? - that Lady Stark's sister said to be sure to introduce Tyrion to? There was no one called Maud in his cell. There weren't any walls either).

I was glad to see that Jaime Lannister (who I really do not like) does seem to be genuniely concerned about Tyrion. I had thought, from their previous interaction, that Jaime and Cersei couldn't stand Tyrion and vice versa.

So, lots and lots of intrigue. Littlefinger and Bald Eunuch Guy (who appears to be plotting with the Targaryens, unless I have that wrong) both have secret agendas, everyone is plotting against everyone else, and Ned Stark continues to be basically honourable and utterly clueless. I hope he gets a clue quickly (and isn't dead) because otherwise Sansa and Arya are in big, big trouble.

Comments

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Jaime and Tyrion are very close - there's a point early on in the books when Tyrion says he'd forgive Jaime anything because Jaime was the only person in his family who ever showed him any kindness or affection. And the brothel scene in the first episode was, I think, laying the groundwork for showing that Jaime and Tyrion are genuinely affectionate and banter with each other in an easy and relaxed way.

And yeah, Jaime was FURIOUS about his brother (who might very well have died at several points along that journey.) Tyrion's threat that Jaime would make Lysa Arryn's knights die if anything happened to him was not an empty one.

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That's nice to know. Since I'm very fond of Tyrion myself, I'm fond of other people being fond of him. :)

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

His love for Tyrion and his courage are pretty much Jaime's only redeeming graces in the first book, although he's got a bit more depth on the show. And yeah, fondness for Tyrion is a good gauge of a person's character!

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His love for Tyrion and his courage are pretty much Jaime's only redeeming graces in the first book,

I wonder if that will be changed at all in the show, and are you pleased so far by the changes from the books, or not?

Also, did I completely misunderstand what Lady Stark's sister said, by the way, with regard to introducing Tyrion to someone called Maud? The more I think about it, the more I must have just completely misheard.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

I love the changes from the books (pretty much all of them, actually - I think they fit with the spirit of the thing, even though some of the stuff we don't learn until later on in the series in the books.) And I do think Jaime's one of the best arcs of the series and they're doing a great job setting up someone with a lot more depth than the book version. The thing is that in the books, the limited POV structure sort of shapes how you view characters without POVs - so Jaime is encountered only through the POVs of Ned Stark in the first book, who hates Jaime, and through the POV of Tyrion, who loves him, but has no illusions about his brother and doesn't actually know all his secrets. But once we get inside Jaime's own head, he's a lot closer to the guy in the TV show than the guy we see solely from Ned's perspective.

Tyrion's jailer's name is "Mord" which does sound a bit like "Maud." Hee!

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But once we get inside Jaime's own head, he's a lot closer to the guy in the TV show than the guy we see solely from Ned's perspective.

That's very interesting, and also shows what a hard job it must have been for the show writers to keep to the spirit of the book yet make it work as a TV show, which is a whole different beast of course. I haven't read the books, as you know, but I think the show is so good that I feel they must be doing a good job (not necessarily the case, I know). I also read an article that petzipellepingo linked to today, an interview with the writers, where they explain some of the choices they've made, including the changes to how the Dany/Khal Drogo relationship started. I still think they made the right choice about that.

Tyrion's jailer's name is "Mord" which does sound a bit like "Maud." Hee!

ROFL. So I was both right and wrong? I was thinking Maud would turn out to be the mad lady's mad maid, or possibly a scarily large dog. Instead, she's a bloke called Mord. :)

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I had forgotten Jory is killed so early on! :(

There was lots of new stuff in this ep, but I really loved the changes they made. They gave Cersei and Robert this air of "The Lion in Winter". Varys got a bit more spotlight as well (and he so deserves it) and I loved that they made Sir Loras and Renly a couple.

In the books they are mostly young and pretty, you never learn anything about their sexual orientation because non of them ever gets their own chapters. But it fits perfectly into the gaps. They have a very stable alliance, both of them are admired a lot by the ladies, but non of them ever really has something important with them going on and there are certainly hints in the books (I think there's a rainbow banner at some point).

And yes, Jaimie honestly loving Tyrion is his most prominent redeeming quality, while at the same time what really ties Tyrion to his family.

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I had forgotten Jory is killed so early on! :(

Does he really, or is it that the show is getting through the material quicker than the book?

I agree about the Cersei/Robert scene. It did have that kind of feel, though Robert is no Henry Plantagenet. And interesting that those two (I must try and remember people's names!) aren't explicitly lovers in the book. I suppose, if they don't get their own chapters, all their scenes together will be created just for the show, like the Robert/Cersei one?

And yes, Jaimie honestly loving Tyrion is his most prominent redeeming quality, while at the same time what really ties Tyrion to his family.

It makes me feel warmer towards Jaime to know that. So far, he hasn't endeared himself to me much, as I take a bit of a dim view of people who push small boys out of windows.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

There's a lot more backstory in the books and the tournament is a much bigger deal, so it takes longer page-wise to get to the conspiracy stuff in King's Landing, but the sequence of events is not that different in the books than it is here.

I take a bit of a dim view of people who push small boys out of windows.


Hee! I don't think even the biggest Jaime fans would actually say they APPROVE of defenestrating small boys (although I do think Jaime was considering that Cersei's head would be on the chopping block, and in the matter of his sister/lover versus random Stark kid, her welfare came first.)

But Jaime's affection for Tyrion is the first small sign that there's more to him than initially meets the eye, yes.

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but the sequence of events is not that different in the books than it is here.

I see. It does seem to me that Ned's time as the King's Hand was over very, very quickly. He arrived, they had the tournament. Now he's out of in his ear. It must have seemed a lot longer in the book.

Hee! I don't think even the biggest Jaime fans would actually say they APPROVE of defenestrating small boys

:) No, I'm sure they wouldn't. Though in the interview I mentioned in my comment above, the writers were complaining that there seemed to be more outrage over what happened to Sansa's direwolf than what happened to Bran. Am pretty sure they'll get loads of complaints about the horse too.

But Jaime's affection for Tyrion is the first small sign that there's more to him than initially meets the eye, yes.

How about Cersei? Does she feel the same way?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Cersei can't stand Tyrion. Then again she blindly loves that sniveling snot of a monstrous son, so that might tell you what you need to know about her.

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Cersei can't stand Tyrion.

:( I knew I didn't like her for a reason.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the sequence of events properly. I thought Ned was hand longer, but I then everything takes longer in the books and towards the end a lot of this happen basically at the same time.

Queenofthornes says they are lovers in canon too, and she has the books a lot more present in her head than I do, but yes, there scenes will likely be made for the show, I'm looking forward to them.

I think the reason why the intersection between Jaimie and Spike fans might be so big is that while Jaimie is a bad person, love does overrule that for him. He has no morals whatsoever but he'll do everything for the people he loves.

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but I then everything takes longer in the books and towards the end a lot of this happen basically at the same time.

I thought that was probably the case. And I'm looking forward to those scenes too. Will be interested to see what happens with those two characters.

As for the Jaime/Spike intersection, odd though it may sound I'm never looking for Spike in other characters. If I grow to like Jaime, which certainly isn't impossible, it won't be because the characters seem similar to me. Or it might be if Jaime gets a redemption story. Have to admit, I'm a sucker for those.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'm not looking for Spike either, but when I talked to people I know from Buffy fandom and have read the books they are almost always Jaimie fans. He does have a very compelling arc too, though Tyrion will always be my favorite.

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I can't see anyone replacing him for me either, though I suppose there are still plenty of characters to be introduced.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In book 1 they never mention it, but, yeah, in book2 i'd call it canonical. we don't see it per se, but Stannis calls it that to Renly's face and Renly doesn't deny it, and once Stannis says it, it influences the way the reader sees the Renly/Loras interaction, leaving the impression that Stannis knew exactly what he was talking about.

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Who is Stannis? Is he the older brother Renly (?) mentions? Have we seen him yet?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

He's been mentioned but not seen yet. Stannis is King Robert's and Renly's brother, so he's the third Baratheon.

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I suppose he'll turn up soon, then. The cast is confusingly large.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

you never learn anything about their sexual orientation because non of them ever gets their own chapters.

I would disagree with that, actually. They don't get their own POVs, but it's quite obvious that more than a few people are aware of the fact that they're lovers. But Renly's motivations for a lot of stuff remains opaque, so I like how this was done on the show.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Really? I vaguely remember that there are some rumours but nothing substantial, but the it's been an eternity since I read the books, so it svery much possible I have forgotten more subtle hints. Anyway it does fit perfectly and it does explain why the alliance between Highgarden and Renly is so stable.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Mainly because I read the scene today, Stannis's comments about Renly, Renly's marriage, and Renly's relationship with Loras makes it pretty unequivocal. Stannis's definitely knew and definitely made a point of it for the readers. In Stannis's comments it's pretty much point blank what the relationship truly is.

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So Renly ends up married? Poor girl, whoever she is.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

He may be now for all I know. They didn't say precisely when he married her. Needless to say it was a political marriage.

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Of course. Very medieval.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

There are lots worse folks to be married to. He might have no sexual interest in her, but he was never unkind to her either. Given the alternatives that abound, she probably wasn't all that dissastified. At least she wasn't being abused... Which in the books is all too common.

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Given the alternatives that abound, she probably wasn't all that dissastified.

Yes, I would think she might well be glad if he just leaves her alone. I've long thought that if I lived in medieval times I would want to be a nun. Far preferable to have to get up in the middle of the night to sing mass than to have to have babies etc. :shudder:

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You don't see much of her, frankly. Though that may change in book 3 (I just finished book2 a few minutes ago... Ah vacation where you sit around reading books in the sun) anyway what little was shown of Renly's situation, it seemed that she was as naive as Sansa is about Loras and just as likely to think of Renly as being chivalrous and gallant. Of course she wasn't a pov character so we don't know her personal thoughts. She could have resented lack of physical attention. In public at least he came off much like Loras as being 'chivalrous.'

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I'm glad you enjoyed your holiday. It does sound nice. It's perfectly possible that this Renly is quite fond of his wife, even if he doesn't love her, I suppose. Not that I expect it matters a lot for the show. She may never feature at all.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Renly and Loras is mostly handled through subtext...which doesn't mean it's not canonical. It's totally apparent what is going on, but it's not out in the open or common knowledge. However, things said by Renly's brother re: Loras on top of the way Renly and Loras look to each other makes it pretty clearly the case, even though it's something that isn't made public and mostly spoken of euphemistically.

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I suppose that tells me all I need to know about how society in Westeros views homosexuality.