(no subject)

[shapinglight]

What do you know? A BtVS-related post

On the bus on the way home today, I got suddenly furiously angry with Joss Whedon for killing poor old Giles so stupidly in the Buffy comic, and especially for the reason cited (ie. that Giles just doesn't work as a character in a comic. Which is bizarre as he seemed to work pretty well in Brian K Vaughan's arc early in the series, which -well, I didn't like it, but most people are agreed is the best one).

But this post isn't about that at all. It's about The Girl in Question. More within, plus a poll.



I can't help noticing that TGiQ comes in for a lot of flack. Lots of people just don't seem to like it, which is bewildering to me. Okay, I admit the comedy in the Spike/Angel scenes is pretty broad and oversteps the mark a couple of times. I admit it's probably at the wrong place in the season and should have been bumped up the order a little. But then the show got cancelled and this was its last Spangel-y hoorah. Speaking of which, I also admit that it's probably easier to like the episode if you're a Spangel 'shipper, which I used to be until Joss turned me off Angel so completely. But really, with a last fond glimpse of Darla and Dru, not to mention some of the best Wesley/Illyria angst in the show (which admittedly probably belongs in a different episode, but there wasn't time), not to mention Spike and Angel behaving like idiots and Boreanaz obviously having a whale of a time clowning around, I don't get what's not to like (except Andrew, maybe). I even like the whole Buffy/Immortal thing, because I like the idea that for once in her life - just for once - Buffy gets to enjoy herself and party on down. She's earned it.

So here's a poll:

[Poll #1750628]

If you take part, and tick the 'loathe' box, I'd be grateful if you'd give your reasons in comments.

ETA: I will be away from LJ until Sunday now. If you comment here, please keep it polite. No character/'ship/each other bashing. Thank you.

Comments

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

"Loathe" is too strong, but I definitely don't love it, and I have no trouble remembering what happened in it. It's just that -- while I enjoyed and admired BtVS and made sure to watch every episode during the first four seasons -- my great love for the show really began in season 5 with the idea of a Spuffy 'ship, so from a Spuffy-loving perspective "The Girl in Question" felt like a badly designed detour (one that takes you all over town and then brings you back to pretty much exactly where you started).

Also, Andrew's pontificating was incredibly annoying (especially given what had happened at the end of his previous visit to L.A.).

On the other hand, Ilona was . . . unique, and yes, I did get chuckles out of the flashbacks to Spike and Angel's previous visits to Rome and their encounters with the Immortal.

Therefore, it's not 'loathing' so much as simply 'somewhat annoyed and often disappointed' with parts of the episode.

[shapinglight]

"Loathe" is too strong, but I definitely don't love it

Yes, I should probably have included a few more boxes. I do agree that the episode isn't great for Spuffy, but then it isn't great for Bangel either, and I have to admit I liked that the show(s) ended with the 'shipper dispute tied. It was pretty much the only time that Spuffy and Bangel were put on an equal footing.

Also, Andrew's pontificating was incredibly annoying (especially given what had happened at the end of his previous visit to L.A.).

I agree, but then I find Andrew annoying whatever he does.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

It is a bit of both: It is silly, the humor isn't my humor, it is a extra fluid pissing contest (which is just plain annoying), the tone doesn't fit the time in the season - but it is needed for narrative reasons for the characters of Angel and Spike to severe their ties to this world to be "free" to go on their suicide mission in NFA. The enigmatic "Buffy" which has been with those two for the whole season is a very strong reason for those two to remain in this world. Once, they see that Buffy is well off and they're not needed by her they are free to suicide.

[shapinglight]

the tone doesn't fit the time in the season

No, it really doesn't, but you're right that what happens in the ep serves to sever Angel and Spike's last earthly ties (well, not quite. Angel still has Connor), and to have done it in a tragic vein would have been just too much in an episode where the Wes/Illyria scenes were so horribly despairing and angsty.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I was the oddity on the fan discussion board that I was on - I loved Girl in Question and I despised Origin, I also despised Storyteller.
Everyone else was the exact opposite. LOL!

I still find Girl in Question to be hilarious. Wasn't expecting to - usually those types of stories frustrate me. But it was a combination of farce and sly wit. (The people who didn't like it - I think - took the characters a bit too seriously.)

[shapinglight]

Everyone else was the exact opposite. LOL!

Well, if I'd been on that fanboard, I would have been right with you. I don't hate Origin but I really dislike Storyteller.

(The people who didn't like it - I think - took the characters a bit too seriously.)

I agree this is likely, though I do think the Italian poster lower down the thread has a legitimate grievance, especially considering how much I hate the depiction of the UK in the Buffy comic.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember I liked most of it, maybe not loved though.

[shapinglight]

I like that it sort of ends the 'shipper wars with a whimper, have to admit.

[quinara]

The thing is about TGIQ is that I used to love it and think it was hilarious (even/especially Andrew!), but my opinion of it suffered along with the rest of S5, which over time I've just grown more and more disappointed by. (For a number of reasons, mostly revolving around how hard I find it to connect to either A4 generally - or more preferably A3, since I really wanted the show to buy itself back actually from S4 to what it was - and in terms of Spike's character connecting back to B7. It's like a spin off all of it's very own, I find, and it leaves me unsatisfied, as much as I love Illyria.)

On your other point, though -

the reason cited (ie. that Giles just doesn't work as a character in a comic.)

Whaaaaat?!? I had not heard this, which is reasonably reassuring since it implies my avoidance is working, but... What?!?! For a start, I'd have thought Giles was the most comic-booky of the lot, being as he was always (to some extent) (a) a caricature and (b) provider of quick exposition, doom and handy gadgets - why would you throw away all your audience's willingness to suspend disbelief and try to build the other character's up as your exposition people, when everyone's used to seeing them as having a biased POV? Also, the logic of this seems utterly, utterly backwards. Not that S8 wasn't a clear demonstration of bending the concept to fit the medium rather than (even) trying to bend the medium to fit the concept, but wasn't that what they claimed to be trying to do when they said, you know, that this was a continuation of the TV series??? /rant

[shapinglight]

It's like a spin off all of it's very own, I find, and it leaves me unsatisfied, as much as I love Illyria.)

I understand that, and though I used to be a pretty hardcore Spangel 'shipper, I certainly had issues with the way the pair were written in AtS5. I didn't like 'stupid little brother' Spike much at all. However, he wasn't like that all the time, and I admit one of the reasons why I like TGiQ is because Angel is made to look like the stupid one in that. Spike in comparison is relatively more mature (not that this is saying much). Plus at last Spuffy and Bangel were put on the same level, which made a change.

Whaaaaat?!? I had not heard this,

Yes, apparently, according to Joss, in one of his post-season 8 interviews, Giles just doesn't work as a character without Tony Head to make him sexy. Which I translate as meaning 'Comics Giles bores me because he's not young and he's not female and you can't stick him in skintight spandex.' Cynical? Moi?

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Above all, it suffers from incredibly poor timing. Had it come in the first third of the season, it might have worked better; it's not a great comedy episode, but it's certainly better than one or two other early s5 episodes, and the flashbacks especially are often hilarious. Coming right in the middle of the final arc, it was hugely out of place. At first, I actually rather liked the comics' retcon of it (especially after reading this ficlet by owenthurman) - as silly as it was, it certainly wasn't a part of the TV series I was all that keen to hang on to. Of course, having since decided that the comics have no influence whatsoever on what happened in the TV series, Buffy dating the Immortal is Schrödinger's canon to me. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, all we know for sure is that Angel and Spike make a fair-to-mediocre Lemmon & Curtis.

I do love all the Wesley/Illyria stuff, though.

ETA: Reposted to fix HTML, sorry.

ETA 2 - Electric Boogaloo: DAMNIT! This time it should work.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I thought the reason it sat so jarringly in the back of season 5 was to serve as a large suggestion that maybe just maybe these guys take each other way too seriously when they're actually just being privileged jerks who swing their dicks to make a point and get the city sent to hell. But hey, mileage varies. :P

It strikes me as a loud reminder that HEY ATS MESSES WITH POV, that what's being shown doesn't always match what's being told. Not everybody needs that, but I imagine this comes from a sense of frustration when a majority of the audience reads the finale as straight-up heroism without seeing any of the darkness the writers put into the story.

So while it's jarring tonally, it seems deliberately so, and it's placement isn't poorly chosen, but deliberately chosen. That outside the LA scene, outside of Angel's native POV, maybe what he's doing is just ridiculous, maybe he's running in circles and even when he thinks he's got a clue, he's still gonna do it the Angel way because what other way does he know. Cue the Redefinition I'VE GOT A WAR TO FIGHT voiceover while other people are helping the helpless.

I suspect TGIQ is meant to jar with the last arc, to interact and suggest how tone and POV can be manipulative.

[gillo]

I find it amusing but tonally a bit off. I don't really love it or loathe it. It's good to see Darla and Dru again (and shirtless Spike) but the "Capo" plot is silly and I find the implication that Buffy would fall for the charms of the Immortal something of a character assassination, though not on the scale of S8, of course.

[shapinglight]

and I find the implication that Buffy would fall for the charms of the Immortal something of a character assassination, though not on the scale of S8, of course.

Well, the implication is all in Spike and Angel's heads. Even if everything Andrew told them was on the level (as presumably at the time it was supposed to be, until Joss had a much stupider idea), they're still interpreting what he says and imputing motives to Buffy that they don't know she actually has. She could be doing anything with the Immortal. Ahem. Also, even if she is just partying and having a good time, I don't mind because I think she earned it.

And nothing could match the character assassination of Buffy in the comic.

I hope. Joss isn't done yet, unfortunately.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know it came very late in the season (but hell they weren't cancelled until very late in the day) and so it suffers from bad timing, but I still have a soft spot for this story. In fact I love it.

The pair come across as the Laurel and Hardy of the Vampire world and thats just suits me fine because I love these two when they're playing it for laughs. I find the characters are allowed to bond more then they ever did in the angsty stories. :D

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

+1 on this opinion.

I LOVE the goofing. I do appreciate that the ep makes some Italian viewers upset though, too. That's one thing I don't like about it.

Not really very fond of the concept of the Immortal but the Spike and Angel angsting and bonding over Buffy, I love.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

Like it just fine, although I have to agree that it is at way the wrong point in the season.

[shapinglight]

Yes, it would probably have worked better around the midway point, after Smile Time, though Spike and Angel would never have worked with each other the way they do in this ep at that point. Spike didn't really come onboard 'Team Angel' until after AHitW.

[ex_peasant441]

It's one of my favourite episodes. Lots of great little moments, but the slo-mo fight is the best bit.

And I didn't mind about the timing - you don't want unrelenting angst in the build up to the denouement or it all becomes a bit OTT. Mixing in comedy helps the build up of tension - Shakespeare knew that and he probably knew what he was doing ;)

[shapinglight]

Lots of great little moments, but the slo-mo fight is the best bit.

I like the vespa chase scene best, and the 'I saved the world more than you' pissing contest.

Mixing in comedy helps the build up of tension - Shakespeare knew that and he probably knew what he was doing ;)

Good point. Also, I've only just noticed that the info on people's comments is telling me where they're posting from. Never noticed that before. Is it new? Not that it's correct. It says you're in Brighton, and it's moved me from Kenilworth to Fleet, and I'm not in either place.

[rua1412.livejournal.com]

Hi!
Beside to hate it because I'm Italian, and my Country was showed in a terrible way, this episode made my two favorite characters (Spike and Angel) look as a fools too.

[shapinglight]

hate it because I'm Italian, and my Country was showed in a terrible way

I understand this completely and can sympathise, since I feel the same about how the UK was depicted in the Buffy comic, and of course it's worse when it's live action.

However, I really don't mind Spike and Angel being made to look like fools. They were on and off during the course of the season, and it serves them right really, because their rivalry is silly.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I mostly love it. Reason #1 is Ilona Costa Bianchi, who I think has a ton of fanfic potential and is just generally marvelous. Also, I only like Angel when he's being a doofus, which this has in spades, even and especially in the flashbacks, so the idea that he's always been a doofus is very reassuring.

The Illyria stuff is brilliant and makes me fall in love with Amy Acker.

I'm not that crazy about Spangel, though I can be convinced, as you know. This doesn't convince me, but the squabbling brother routine is at least semi-equitable in that nobody is shown to be "better" than the other. However, since this ep does give us Darla/Dru slash, as well as clear evidence that the family wasn't entirely incestuous, I'm coming down in favor, just for the sex.

I think the comics have changed my view of the Buffy parts. I liked that it was retconned, but I also like that idea that Buffy got to cut loose...except sometimes I don't. IDEK what I want for Buffy anymore.

[next_to_normal]

This. Right down to the confusion about what I want, lol.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I ticked the last box because you didn't have one for "mixed feelings". My first reaction was loathing. It's not my style of comedy; it was making fun of my boy; and the timing is weird. But I've softened on it. I can see the things that make you love it. I can especially see why a Spangel shipper would love it. So I no longer hate it, but I still mostly love it vicariously, i.e. because other people love it. I just rewatched and there's a nice reaction shot of Spike when he hears Andrew say that Buffy loves him. aw.

[shapinglight]

I ticked the last box because you didn't have one for "mixed feelings

I should have put one, but then almost everyone would have ticked it, I think.

it was making fun of my boy;

Well, it was, but it was making fun of Angel too. In fact, more fun of Angel, because there are times in the ep, the moment with the reaction shot you mention among them, where Spike comes across as the mature, sensible one. And given how he's mostly portrayed in AtS5, I love that.

I just rewatched and there's a nice reaction shot of Spike when he hears Andrew say that Buffy loves him. aw.

Yes, poor Spike. He clearly means it when he says earlier in the ep that he knew he never had a chance with Buffy. Hearing Andrew say that was a revelation to him.

[elisi]

I can understand why people dislike it, since it probably dips too far into farce, but personally I rather love it. (Not to mention that I got a whole 'verse out of it...)

Also, writing the other side of the story proved a very good exercise, since trying to work out what The Immortal knows, and why he keeps being a step ahead, was... tricky. Plus, from his side, Spike and Angel are annoying pests, who are unable to let go even when they're fighting for the same side. :)

[shapinglight]

I'm not that bothered about the Immortal. He can happily remain a cipher. I just like the idea of Buffy being able to relax and enjoy herself for a change. TV Buffy deserved it.

[molly_may]

Love it. Some of the humor is a little broad and slapsticky for my taste, but the stuff that works ("I signaled her with my eyes!") really, really works. As you know, I'm not so much a Spangel fan, but I do very much enjoy the Spike/Angel bickering, buddy-comedy aspect of their relationship, and this episode is the best showcase for that.

I also love that the Immortal is essentially a metaphor for Spike and Angel - as Angel basically points out when he's denying that Buffy could be dating him: "She would never fall for a centuries old guy with a dark past who may or may not be evil!". Heh, yeah, it's not like she's ever gotten romantically involved with a guy like that before!

And I'm with you in liking the idea that Buffy was in Rome, having fun for once in her life. It seems almost like a petty complaint now, but one of the first things that I hated about S8 was that it robbed Buffy of experiencing the kind of happiness she seemed to be having in TGIQ.

Finally, this is easily my favorite episode for Illyria, even if the darkness of that part of the ep feels awkward next to the silliness of the main plot.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"I signaled her with my eyes!"

Oh god, It's worth it for that line alone imo. :D

[tabitha666.livejournal.com]

Love. Love. Love. I'm a Spangel shipper and I love the Fanger Four...so this episode is heaven for me.
The timing was a bit off but hey, there were lots of problems in s5. *shrugs*

[shapinglight]

I'm a Spangel shipper and I love the Fanger Four...so this episode is heaven for me.

I'm not nearly as much of a Spangel 'shipper as I used to be, but I still love the Fanged Four to pieces and am so glad this episode gave us the chance to see them all together again.

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

Love it!

And can't watch it without remembering and laughing about DB and JM's hilarious live commentary on it at the Halloween con

[shapinglight]

And can't watch it without remembering and laughing about DB and JM's hilarious live commentary on it at the Halloween con

I so wish I'd seen that. :sigh:

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say I loved it; its brand of humor isn't really my favorite. But as far as what happens in it, I have no problems. I liked the Buffy/Immortal thing (still my canon), I liked Angel and Spike palling up and I liked the overall message that they needed to get over themselves.

There were some things I wasn't a fan of. I didn't care for Darla and Dru as avatars for Buffy because the circumstances were different and it didn't feel like a fair parallel for any of them.

Didn't love it or hate it, so I checked both which puts me in the middle. I think.

[shapinglight]

I liked the Buffy/Immortal thing (still my canon), I liked Angel and Spike palling up and I liked the overall message that they needed to get over themselves

Yes, me too. They were so very silly, especially Angel. I like the way that both 'ships are put on an equal footing this one time (which is how it should have been left). Buffy loves them both, but she's moved on.

[rahirah]

There are parts of it that I have strong reservations about, but given the choice between loving and loathing, the love is way stronger.

[shapinglight]

but given the choice between loving and loathing, the love is way stronger.

Yes, I should have had a better in-between box, I suppose, but it looks like almost everyone would have picked it.

[liliaeth]

What if the answer is, I mostly hate it, but there are some good moments in it.

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

What if the answer is, I mostly hate it, but there are some good moments in it.

That's pretty much what I'd say. The flashbacks are hilarious, all of them, and I'm always happy to see Spike and Angel making fools of themselves.

But, as others have pointed out, the timing within the season was way, way off. And I hate hate hate the ending, with Andrew telling them to "move on -- Buffy has" and then walking off with the two leggy blondes. The only way I can hate it a tiny bit less is to figure that since Andrew has been coded as gay from the beginning, he's lying to himself about having moved on and so he's probably lying about Buffy having moved on too. But mostly it reads as Joss and the evil Mutant Enemy gang throwing their total failure to resolve Spike and Buffy's relationship in any way in my Spuffy-loving face. That really doesn't make me smile.

Oh, and I'm not crazy about the Illyria story in this episode, either.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I ticked "loved it", which is mostly true. I found it was hilarious and I loved all the brilliant moments between Spike and Angel.

It's just that, speaking from where I was as a Spuffy shipper at the time, I always saw it in a way that the ball was in Buffy's court now, concerning the ship. And the girl in question made it clear she would not play. That in the end much like Spike and Angel I would have to get over it. And I didn't want to.

[shapinglight]

And the girl in question made it clear she would not play. That in the end much like Spike and Angel I would have to get over it. And I didn't want to.

I suppose I was the opposite, in that I was happy to get over it, now that my 'ship had been put on an equal footing with Bangel, even if it was that they both got given the brush off. A legacy of the Shipper Wars, no doubt.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

I don't like most of the Rome bits. It's badly plotted, nobody would be called 'The Immortal' in a world in which vampires were common, and the portrayal of Italy is a crude caricature (like the UK and Germany are in Season 8).

But the Illyria scenes are marvellous. And wonderful material to use as the basis for fic.

But mainly I love it because of Ilona Costa Bianchi.

[shapinglight]

and the portrayal of Italy is a crude caricature (like the UK and Germany are in Season 8).

Yes, worse actually, because it's live action, not badly drawn 2D.

But mainly I love it because of Ilona Costa Bianchi.

She is a fun character.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I picked "Love" because I do enjoy the episode as a stand-alone. Spike and Angel, for the most part, getting along in their odd little way. However, I would have rather this episode been placed differently in the sequence. I get that the writers wanted one of those light-hearted episodes right before the tragedy to make the tragedy seen much more tragic, but it was awkward.

There is something that I loathe about the entire show that always gets my rage up particularly in this episode. Part of my family are Roma, and the fact is that even though Angelus is a bad guy, the Romani on BtVS/Ats get portrayed not that great. Even though it's supposed to be funny because Ms. Costa Bianchi is just over-the-top and trying to placate Angel, the "dirty tricks for dirty people... like gypsies!" just pisses me off.

... and yet... my Spangel heart keeps bringing me back to this episode. Particularly for Spike being defensive of Angel not crying. Also, in the worlds of David Boreanaz, "It looks like David Bowie and David Cassidy are chained up in someone's basement..."

[shapinglight]

There is something that I loathe about the entire show that always gets my rage up particularly in this episode. Part of my family are Roma, and the fact is that even though Angelus is a bad guy, the Romani on BtVS/Ats get portrayed not that great. Even though it's supposed to be funny because Ms. Costa Bianchi is just over-the-top and trying to placate Angel, the "dirty tricks for dirty people... like gypsies!" just pisses me off.

I understand that completely. It's something that BtVS does over and over as well. I have the impression that Joss doesn't see 'gypsies' as really existing outside fairytales and Dracula movies.

Also, in the worlds of David Boreanaz, "It looks like David Bowie and David Cassidy are chained up in someone's basement..."

:)

[yourlibrarian]

I guess I couldn't say I feel strongly enough about it to love or loathe it (which is the generally the case for me). I didn't care for its placement in Angel S5. I did like that Spike and Angel were off on an adventure together which took advantage of their history in a way not done frequently enough for me in a season where the two were finally together. I also found some parts of it hilarious. Overall though, I thought the story was weak and trying too hard for humor. Put together petty Angel and blustering Spike + their history and the humor already writes itself. When it comes down to it, I'm guess I'm happy that we got something like this at all rather than never getting it (since their return to film is highly unlikely).

I would share your anger about Giles if I even acknowledged he was dead. I had been angry enough at the way poor old Ethan had been killed off right at the start for no good reason. That should have been enough of a warning sign. And yes, it's a stupid reason to give.

[shapinglight]

I did like that Spike and Angel were off on an adventure together which took advantage of their history in a way not done frequently enough for me in a season where the two were finally together

Yes, I agree. I remember David Fury saying that before the season began he and Jeff Bell had assumed that Spike/Angel would be the main story that season, only for Joss to say that no, it wasn't. For Joss, it was just a sideshow to the main event (Illyria), so it was nice to get something.

And yes, it's a stupid reason to give

Not stupid at all. I was very angry too. I don't see Ethan as a throwaway character, and Joss clearly does. As for Giles, after Ethan, the writing was on the wall for him as far as I was concerned. I just didn't think he would die in such stupid, pointless circumstances.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I can't say I "loathe" it, but I definitely wouldn't say I love it. I didn't like that Buffy was so quickly oblivious to what was going on in the world (and the Immortal? yuck!). I know it was Angel's show, but I feel that was the beginning of trashing Buffy's character. And I thought most of the humor was trying way too hard. I liked the scenes where Angel and Spike seemed to be sharing some feelings, but that's about it.

[shapinglight]

I know it was Angel's show, but I feel that was the beginning of trashing Buffy's character.

Hmm, I really disagree. I don't think she was trashed at all. For a start, we don't know what she was actually doing with the Immortal. We just have Spike and Angel's fevered speculation. Plus, even if she was just having a good time, I don't see why that's so wrong, given what she'd been through.

Now season 8 really has trashed her.