Fool For Love

[shapinglight]

I went with Fool For Love in the end. It really is a brilliant episode.



I know I'm probably not supposed to think that any more, or I'm supposed to hate Spike because of it, or something. But I do, and I don't. I think the only difference is that, watching it this time, just post him killing Nikki, I didn't feel sorry for him at all when Buffy told him he was beneath her.

Apart from that, though, Spike clearly believes everything he tells Buffy, even if some of it was pretty arrogant and stuff he couldn't really know, and that it resonates with her is very clear. Of course she understands that the day might come when she's tired enough to want the uncertainty to stop. Of course she does.

Other stuff: the flashback party scene with William the Bloody Awful Poet is teeth-grittingly bad. It doesn't look at all like a Victorian society party, but more like a saloon/whorehouse setting in an old Western. Cecily's accent still amuses me no end, though. She keeps going all northern, and I keep expecting her father, who must be some self-made Northern industrialist, to burst into the room going, "Eee, Cecily, lass, there's trouble up at t'mill." :snorfle: Dru's seduction of poor William is perfect, though. She knows exactly what to say to him.

Speaking of Dru, I remember listening to the episode commentary by Doug Petrie and him saying that after Spike kills the Chinese slayer is when he and Dru have sex for the first time. It seems a little unlikely - she put him off for twenty years? - but after watching it again, that is probably what we're supposed to think.

I still adore the Fanged Four slo-mo power walk, and love the porch scene to pieces.

Comments

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

You see, I've never been all that enamoured with Fool For Love. It's like I know I should have been, but I've never actually felt it, I would rather watch Intervention or Spiral.

I still detest the cheesy, cringey power walk. I suppose I always will.

[shapinglight]

I still detest the cheesy, cringey power walk. I suppose I always will.

I remember that you don't like it. :) It's about the only such power walk that works for me (I like it in Darla too), though there's one in a True Blood season 4 that's pretty good too.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Why would FFL be meant to make you hate Spike? Nevah!

Also, I really can't believe that it was 20 years before Spike and Dru had sex. Pfft. It was just a particularly memorable session, what with the Slayer blood and all. Certainly the retcon in "Lies My Parents Told Me" strongly implies that they've been hard at it ever since he rose from the dead.

I still feel sorry for Spike at the "beneath you" line, not because he's not an evil bastard, but because he's an evil bastard who's only ever wanted to be loved back and he keeps getting slapped down in the exact same way across centuries, no matter what he tries (and he's sometimes quite decent about it, even).

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[shapinglight]

Why would FFL be meant to make you hate Spike? Nevah!

Oh, the episode isn't meant to do that, but there's a POV in some sections of fandom that the episode proves he has a big hate-on for POC women, as exemplified in him taking Nikki's coat. And I'm not going to say any more as I don't want to have to flock this post.

Also, I really can't believe that it was 20 years before Spike and Dru had sex.

Heh! My arithmetic is awful, isn't it? I've edited my post. For some reason I had the date 1888 fixed in my head for Spike's siring.

Certainly the retcon in "Lies My Parents Told Me" strongly implies that they've been hard at it ever since he rose from the dead.

It does, though if they went straight from the stable back to William's house and then from there to wherever it was they catch up with Angelus in Destiny, he sort of got in the way.

I suppose I do sorta kinda feel sorry for him, but it's more because I just do feel sorry for people who've been publically humiliated than because of what actually happens.

[kassto.livejournal.com]

I've watched it very recently. Agree the Victorian party is pretty dire and that Dru's seduction is completely perfect.

I just think it is a brilliant layered character portrait, combining an unreliable narrator, in Spike, with more objective truth shown to us onscreen. Of a deeply vulnerable character, seduced by his vulnerabilities into a life where his dark side can run rampant. But then he is seduced again by his vulnerabilities away from that. And the result is one big hell of a mess in his head. Despite being dense about himself, he has pinpoint emotional sharpness about others and senses the Slayer nihilism as a way in. And of course, as always with the vamps, as Buffy says somewhere – blood and love and sex and death all hopelessly confused. (I think she says it in Conversations with Dead People, to Holden.) I find the last 20 minutes superb. The range of conflicting emotions Spike travels through... from the intercut Nikki/Buffy scene through to the porch... just stunning.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I'd agree with that assessment. Very well put, btw.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

I agree with all this.

Still my favorite episode of the show. I love it.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

It's at times like this I wish LJ had a "Like" button...

Really well said! And now I want to watch FFL again.

[lynnenne]

Despite being dense about himself, he has pinpoint emotional sharpness about others

Agreed. This is one of the things I love about Spike's character. He's incredibly insightful about everyone else. But when it comes to himself? Clueless.

[spuffy-noelle.livejournal.com]

I agree with the first two comments. Spike is "beneath" her, yet Angel-the one who created the evil monster that is Spike-isn't? And she's snuggling up to him episodes later when her mom dies? MAKES. NO. SENSE.

I'll always love the porch scene. Forever and ever.

[shapinglight]

The porch scene is lovely. However, I really don't think we're meant to even consider Angel in this episode. Spike is beneath Buffy, that's pretty clear. It's just a resonance thing that they put Cecily's words in Buffy's mouth.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I never felt much sympathy for Spike there. Spend the whole evening rhapsodizing about stalking and killing Slayers and it should be little surprise a Slayer isn't going to like it. Especially when from her perspective, you're talking about killing her.

[shapinglight]

I used to feel sorrier for him. I do kind of sympathise that his mythologising of himself got so thoroughly punctured because it always hurts to see your self-image brought down to earth, especially if you're an insecure person like he is. However, he eventually becomes a better man for it, so he has to take his lumps.

As for what he says to Buffy, of course that's only partly to do with him. In fact, that's one of the cleverest things about the episode, as kassto points out above. Spike is an unreliable narrator all the time he's talking to Buffy, though it means a lot to him, and yet what he says to her has such resonance for her season arc.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Yeah - but that was why she asked him to talk, and what she wanted him to talk about...

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

This is my 'hook people on Buffy' episode. Of course, as more of Spike's story comes out, we do realize parts conveniently ignored - to the point where 'I had to get a gang' is laughable. I'm in the 'he was a demon' category - natural enemies - when it comes to slayer killing. At least he went for a challenge, and they had some chance of wither escaping or winning. It's all relative.

Hated the flash back - have always hated the flashback.

Dru's seduction is perfect, and I suspect that - at least in her head - it was preordained. It's obvious she uses thrall (you walk where others fear to tread - swaying), and that he breaks away from it. I think she felt a link - he was sensitive enough - that she could see into him and use what she needed.

As for the sex - "I've got you to feast on now," was answer enough to me. But I think this is the first time that he really felt/took the more masculine role, and the role of being the desired Dom. Love the power walk!

And the back porch scene, as well as the expressions as Spike makes his choice.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Party scene flashback...

[shapinglight]

I'm in the 'he was a demon' category - natural enemies - when it comes to slayer killing. At least he went for a challenge, and they had some chance of wither escaping or winning. It's all relative.

I'm in that camp too. I'm sure that's what Whedon meant. Unfortunately, however, it doesn't change the fact that it can be read in the other way if you're so inclined. This is a failure on Joss's part, of course. He seems to have this knack with Spike of making it so that you can see the bad things he does in even worse lights than they were intended, probably because he didn't think through the implications of what he was doing to the character at the time (*cough* AR *cough*). However, probably if someone were to point it out to him now, he would either furiously deny that he meant any such thing, or (more likely) shrug and say that's the beauty of it, that it can be open to so many interpretations.

[rahirah]

Petrie's kinda weird.

Of course, in the flashbacks in LMPT Dru's all over just-turned William, and it's strongly implied that they've already had sex. I think that's way more likely, myself.

It's funny - I didn't get into fandom until around Intervention, and I was stunned that so much of fandom had such a huge hate-on for Spike. But it also surprised me that so many Spuffy fans back then felt that the Scoobies and Buffy were cruel to Spike in S5 - I sympathized with Spike on a number of points, but he was kinda evil, after all, and had just tried to get the chip out and kill them not that long ago.

[shapinglight]

Petrie's kinda weird.

I agree. His Riley worship has become a sort of fandom legend. ;)

Of course, in the flashbacks in LMPT Dru's all over just-turned William, and it's strongly implied that they've already had sex. I think that's way more likely, myself.

I do too. I suppose, in retrospect, you could interpret it as Spike finally stepping out of Angelus's shadow - becoming a 'man' in vampire terms. But it does seem very unlikely that he would have spent 20 years doing whatever was the vampire equivalent of a Victorian courtship with Dru.

It's funny - I didn't get into fandom until around Intervention, and I was stunned that so much of fandom had such a huge hate-on for Spike. But it also surprised me that so many Spuffy fans back then felt that the Scoobies and Buffy were cruel to Spike in S5 - I sympathized with Spike on a number of points, but he was kinda evil, after all, and had just tried to get the chip out and kill them not that long ago.

We must have arrived around the same time, though I stayed in lurkdom until near the end of season 6, when I couldn't stand it any more and had to find like-minded people to share my misery with. ;)

Yes, I remember reading several fics set in season 5 that made Buffy out to be a horrible bitca for 'abusing' Spike. Can only think that the people who wrote them were very young, though of course the fallout from that is that Redemptionistas get accused all the time of believing Spike is a saint (which is weird when you think about it, because if he were, why would he need redeeming?).

Then again, it goes the other way. After season 7, I remember coming across a horrible fanfic in which Xander (for yes, I think it was written by a Xander fan) and the other Scoobies kill Buffy and Spike by throwing them in a vat of acid, because the two of them were so me-an to everyone in Empty Places/Touched.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

I was stunned that so much of fandom had such a huge hate-on for Spike.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. I think there is a huge difference between hardcore online fans and just fans. Hardcore online fandom has a lot to do with escapism, and that's a huge deal of different motivators than just enjoying the show. Online fandom was always the minority - just as today's comic fans are the absolute minority considering the fact that millions upon millions of people watched BtVS on TV worldwide.

(I think the TV networks have/had a closer grasp of the whole spectrum of fandom and it is no coincidence that AtS got a season 5 only if Spike/JM was on board.)

What i mean is - i firmly believe that most fans worldwide loved the character of Spike. Only the relatively minor subset of escapist online fans hated the character.

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

I love FFL and Darla. The two eps belong together


I can't watch the scene where Buffy throws money at Spike and tells him he's beneath her. James is too darned good an actor and his pain kills me.

But the porch scene is magnificent! Spike's like some type of animal who doesn't really understand humanity but tries, awkwardly, to comfort Buffy.

Genius!

[shapinglight]

I love FFL and Darla. The two eps belong together

I agree. I should have watched Darla straight afterwards, but I was obviously on a Spuffy roll.

But the porch scene is magnificent! Spike's like some type of animal who doesn't really understand humanity but tries, awkwardly, to comfort Buffy.

Yes, yes. Very well put. When he tilts his head in the scene he sort of reminds me of a bewildered dog (or maybe I should say tame wolf) that doesn't really understand what its seeing, but knows it's bad.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, that would have been my next recommendation for an episode to re-watch. :-) That episode is really fucking fantastic (despite the small weird things) and watching it with the episode that goes with it in Angel (name escapes me right now)? Well, that is just awesome. :-)

I do plan to watch them both with hubby one off these days... All of a sudden he is hinting at being a closet Angel fan... o.O What the...? X-D

[shapinglight]

All of a sudden he is hinting at being a closet Angel fan... o.O What the...? X-D

Really? He didn't like him before? He'd better not prefer him to Spike.

And agree it's a fantastic ep. The one that goes with it in AtS is called Darla.