Re writing, Spangel, the AR etc, brief mention of the Buffy comics

[shapinglight]

I debated with myself whether to post this openly or not. But then I thought, oh well.

Spoilers within for my fic Hell Can Wait and for the Buffy comics. Also, mention of the AR, so please avoid this post if that's a trigger subject for you.



This post arises by the rather roundabout route of me writing Hell Can Wait for rekindlespangel. The general tone of fics on the comm is rather sombre, I've noticed, whereas I went for a comedic tone, dealing with Spike and Angel's past with each other in a way that reduced their issues to the often very petty squabbles over nothing much, as seen in The Girl in Question, which I still think is a good, if very maligned, episode. A lot of their differences were petty and stupid, and they should just grow up.

However, when writing their 'let's have it all out' conversation in the story, I realised that there was no way I could make specific mention of the AR and still keep that tone. Spike is accusing Angel of treating Buffy the same way he treated Drusilla - ie. messing with her head - and Angel is defending himself by saying he was evil at the time (they're talking BtVS season 2), and couldn't help it. He couldn't love Buffy without a soul etc, etc. To which Spike of course responds with "Oh really?" or words to that effect, implying that he had no such problem. Angel counters with questioning the quality of that love (sick and soulless) and Spike is forced to admit that he made big mistakes too and they end up calling it quits. However, I felt there was no way I could have Spike state openly what his worst mistake was and have them call it quits. Rape/attempted rape is just not something you can throw into a conversation like that and then have the characters shrug and carry on with the story in a semi-comedic way.

However, maybe I'm wrong to think that (maybe I'm wrong to post this?)? Maybe I should've had Spike flat out admit what he did and included a section in the story in which Angel just beats the crap out of him (though been there, done that in fic many years ago, not sure that it does anything except assuage a fannish desire for what some (Scott Allie maybe?) might see as proportionate revenge (though you also might question why the hell is it Angel's business in the first place?)). But for me, it's sort of the elephant in the room, and maybe it was for some people who read the story too, though no one mentioned it in comments. Maybe they just thought I'd been massively unfair to Angel and made him look like the worst sinner by default by not mentioning it specifically? I don't know.

I suppose what it comes down to again is being really annoyed at Joss for putting the character of Spike in such an impossible position without any clear exit strategy, as it were (well, beyond his heroic death, if that had even been conceived of when Marti came up with the idea of the AR and Joss okay'd it). Generally speaking these days, I take a purely Watsonian view of what happens in BtVS. I think you pretty much have to in order to enjoy the show. Also, as I've stated before quite recently, after ten years of mulling all this over, I know what I think and am unlikely to change my mind. However, I am always painfully aware of skirting around the AR whenever I write comedic fic, which I like to write, and so wish I didn't have to. It's just that it's the one thing you cannot not take seriously.

As a whingey aside, there should be another, which is Angel's treatment of Buffy in the Buffy comic's Season 8, but Joss/Dark Horse/Christos Gage (the writer of the Angel & Faith comic) seem to be trying to worm out of that by a retcon here, a statement of denial there, and flat out refusal to engage there. Spike didn't - and never will - get that retcon/denial/refusal to engage, nor should he. It annoys me that Angel does.

Probably shouldn't post this. I hope it doesn't upset anybody. If you comment, please do not character/other poster bash and please be sensitive of other posters' feelings.

ETA: Please note, I shall be out for a while and can't answer comments till later.

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Would you like me to link this?

[shapinglight]

I don't think I've said anything really controversial. I hope not anyway? But I'm going out for a bit. I'll think about it and let you know when I get back.

[norwie2010.livejournal.com]

It is hard to "laugh away the horror", that's for sure. BtVS did it sometimes, and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't (i'm thinking Buffy's joke in "Go! Fish" about being gang-raped by the monstrous swim team).

On the subject of the AR:

I think most of the visceral reaction to that scene lies in the way the scene is depicted, filmed. IF Angel's torture of Buffy (or Drusilla), the stalking, the killing of her friends and class mates would have been filmed in the same way - we wouldn't have this discussion now: Angel would be a "burned character".

Because, when we look at the deeds of Angel and Spike dispassionately, like a criminal investigator might, we have to acknowledge that Spike tried to commit a crime, and was horrified by his own actions, while Angel/us carried out crimes - and delighted in them.

(Well, he kinda was horrified after regaining his soul...)

At the end of the day, i will always regard actual committed murder as more grave than attempted rape. (And this is not meant to whitewash Spike, far from it! But in a pissing contest between Angel and Spike "who did Buffy more wrong" - eh. Throwing a highly manipulative way of telling their respective stories into their faces seems kinda off to me.)

[ex_peasant441]

I think there is an interesting fic to be written about Spike telling Angel about what provoked him to get the soul - one that doesn't inexorably lead to Angel beating the crap out of Spike in defence of Buffy. This would probably have to be in some set up where Angel was physically prevented in some way - magic or circumstances. Because I think Angel undoubtedly would see himself as both the champion who is entitled to protect Buffy and the grandsire who is entitled to punish Spike. I think he would definitly consider it his business.

I also think that had Angelus captured Buffy he would have raped her. Knowing as she does how many hang ups she has about sex, as well as the fact that having sex with her was what got rid of his soul, I think it would have been high on his list of priorities of ways to abuse her. With another girl he might have considered rape a bit obvious, with Buffy that wouldn't be the case.

Personally I'm not sure if Spike would consider the AR as his worst mistake. I think it is more the thing that brought home to him that there was something wrong with his view of love without a soul and hence his inspiration to seek one. In terms of 'worst thing ever' though, I doubt he would rate it higher than the murders, torture and rape that he actually went through with. His worst mistake with Buffy, maybe, not his worst crime by a very long chalk.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Sorry...I've realized something, it's not the AR scene that is a trigger for me, but the fandom reaction to it. ;-)

I don't see Spike telling Angel about the AR. And I don't believe anyone did.
Buffy wouldn't have. Xander? Please. Dawn? No. Willow, I'm not sure Willow knew. Giles? No. It's not the sort of thing people talk about. Even in reality, both parties feel deep shame. Notice in S7...they can barely discuss what happened. So, no, you can't have Angel and Spike discuss it. Because I can't imagine Spike ever trusting Angel enough to tell him that story - it was personal and humiliating and horrible. It's why he got a soul - because he hated himself for it. You don't tell someone like Angel a secret like that, particularly when you know that Angel gets off on playing psychological mind games. Be completely out of character for Spike to discuss it with Angel and would take me out of the story.

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

I think it's possible that Spike would admit to the attempted rape if he didn't feel threatened by Angel. If there came a time when Angel opened up about his past deeds or the hypocrisy of his double-standard-soul-situation, then Spike would probably share, maybe not give all the details though. Spike would expect to be throttled, wait for the punches to come, and Angel might just sit there in silence contemplating what he'd been told. The magnitude of what Spike is admitting and what it took to admit that the one who loves, the one who is supposed to be devoted, did something incredibly selfish and hurtful to the one he cared about the most, would fill up the room. What's worse trying to rape for a sense of power/hate/evil or doing it out of a love that had been twisted? Then, they would both realize the truth of it- there is no "worst;" there's just the two of them in a room. That's all they've got.

... I just wrote fic (or the startings of one) in your comments. O_O;;;

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I think most of the visceral reaction to that scene lies in the way the scene is depicted, filmed.

The cut! The cut in the middle! WTF!? Yeah, the way they executed it was horrible. Angelus was always conveniently in vamp-face when he did anything dirty because Joss wanted to create that separation. Similarly, they conveniently cut from Xander's assault in The Pack. Really poorly done.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I'd never thought of this, but you're quite correct. The AR scene was filmed for maximum impact, and SMG and JM acted the hell out of it. We rarely, if ever, are treated to that same level of minute detail and extended action when seeing Angel at his worst. Intellectually, we know, because we've been told, that he was a terrible creature, but we don't see a great deal of it. And it's always Angelus - as if Joss wants to be sure that we get the difference the soul makes. Unfortunately for his plan, he has already shown us an unsoulled vampire that is perfectly capable of recognizing right from wrong and being ashamed of his actions....

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I completely understand the dilemms you faced while writing and your decision to leave the AR out of Hell an Wait.

Not that I'm discouraging anyone from writing such a thing because that's something I would never do...I'm certain that there are fics out there that do deal with the AR re:Angel and Spike, but I have never personally felt the need to read one. Not because I want to handwave what Spike did away anyway I can. (because no matter what Mutant Enemy might think, that's not possible. once something is seen or done, it can't be unseen or undone or forgotten)

But the thing is, I think Angel knew. And the reason I think Angel knew is because of this exchange from Destiny:

SPIKE: Oh, yeah. Look at you. Thinking you're the big savior, fighting for truth, justice, and soccer moms. But you still can't lay flesh on a cross without smelling like bacon, can you?

ANGEL: Like you're any different.

SPIKE: Well, that's just it. I am. And you know it. You had a soul forced on you as a curse. Make you suffer for all the horrible things you'd done. But me... I fought for my soul. Went through the demon trials. Almost did me in a dozen times over, but I kept fighting. 'Cause I knew it was the right thing to do. It's my destiny.

ANGEL: Really? Heard it was just to get into a girl's pants.

I've always thought that was a peculiar phrase coming from Angel and the minute I heard it, I knew (just knew) that everything Angel had learned about that final battle in Sunnydale had come not from Buffy but from Xander. Which is why he sounded so damn bitter here. To me, that wasn't an Angel-line, it was a Xander-line.

Of course, this is JMO. And I'm not sure what my point is, other than ... I just felt like sharing that? :D

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

"You don't tell someone like Angel a secret like that, particularly when you know that Angel gets off on playing psychological mind games"
Hadn't thought about this, but you're absolutely right. Spike knows Angel/Angelus too well to give him that kind of weapon if Angel hadn't already been told by someone else. Which seems unlikely.

[rahirah]

I dunno, I think Xander would have told if he'd had the opportunity. He had no compunctions about telling Dawn - hell, he reveled in it. I don't see why he wouldn't have told Angel, at least, during that time frame. Later on, when his antagonism towards Spike had waned a bit, I agree it's less likely.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - I never took that line to mean that he knew about the AR. But that is certainly a possibility... And, yes, it definitely sounds like a Xander-line, right down to assuming what the motivation had been for getting the soul.

Some good/interesting/though-provoking stuff is coming out of this post and the comments.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I disagree. I think Xander did tell Angel. I think it's something Xander would done just because he bitterly hated Angel (and Spike) so much and because I think he would have felt a sadistic sense of satisfaction in telling him.

[next_to_normal]

Personally I'm not sure if Spike would consider the AR as his worst mistake. I think it is more the thing that brought home to him that there was something wrong with his view of love without a soul and hence his inspiration to seek one. In terms of 'worst thing ever' though, I doubt he would rate it higher than the murders, torture and rape that he actually went through with. His worst mistake with Buffy, maybe, not his worst crime by a very long chalk.

YES. So much. There's really a warped perspective on the AR (partly, as mentioned above, because of the way it was filmed), but it's not even the worst thing he's ever done on screen let alone EVER.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Attempted rape it might be... but to me... What Angelus did to Drusilla was FAR far worse. :-) But... that might just be me. Not a triggery subject for me, clearly. ;-)

So why, no honestly... Should Angel beat the crap out of Spike for that, when what he has done without a soul is just as bad, and worse? I am not asking to upset, I am honestly curious? I know the attempted rape is such a triggery subject for so so many, but it seems like it overshadows soooooo much that both Spike and Angel had done before this. Hinted at on the show and flat out shown when it comes to Dru.

Sure, the attempted rape (and why do everyone write AR? It took me soo long to figure out what it stood for...) wasn't handled very well in the show. I know. Shitty thing. But still... STILL... They ARE vampires. Have lived as EVIL vampires for a long, LOOOOOONG time before either of them ended up in Sunnydale. Spike points it out, even, MORE then ones. "Evil, remember?"

Shitty as it was handled, I've never gotten the RAGE over the attempted rape. I know James didn't exactly like it. Well. Not at all. But yeah. Never got that, from what else the character Spike and Angel has in their baggage.

Just my two cents.

And now I expect a ton of comments telling me how wrong I am. ;-) It's OK. I got a pretty thick skin, and I like a good discussion. So bring it. :-)

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I know the attempted rape is such a triggery subject for so so many, but it seems like it overshadows soooooo much that both Spike and Angel had done before this. Hinted at on the show and flat out shown when it comes to Dru.

I think it's because of the way the AR was filmed. It was visceral and upsetting in a way the hinting was not.

[girlpire.livejournal.com]

I am always painfully aware of skirting around the AR whenever I write comedic fic, which I like to write, and so wish I didn't have to. It's just that it's the one thing you cannot not take seriously.

i think there are a lot of funny moments in both btvs and ats - lots of really, really hilarious scenes - that take place after both the AR and angel's brutal murder of jenny calendar, as well as all of the other horrible things these two vampires did without souls. i mean, angelus tried to end the world. the whole world! and yet, there are a lot of comedic moments that happen after that involving angel. and i feel like the writers didn't regret making the funny things funny even though they had to skirt the world-ending issue to do so. you know? we all know that angel did horrible things, but i think we can still laugh at him for being awkward without hating him forever because of the horrible things he did before. and i feel that way about spike, too. spike tried to force himself on buffy one time when he was evil. he also killed two slayers just for fun, and murdered a bunch of other people too. but it still makes me laugh when he and xander steal that one guy's jacket in season seven. and just because he used to be evil and i know he used to be evil, that doesn't make that scene any less funny.

i guess what i mean is that we can acknowledge that spike and angel used to be evil without letting it seriously affect our funny. that's what the btvs/ats writers did. we never forget that they were evil, but that doesn't mean absolutely everything had to be serious afterward. of course that doesn't mean you can go around making jokes about rape and murder either, but those kinds of jokes wouldn't be funny anyway, and you can quite easily make jokes about pretty much anything else.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I'm an old cynical hag, so I say that Angel will always have his protagonist privilege, because he is, well, a protagonist, a face of his show or comics. So he can't be written as too unsympathetic. When he loses his soul on AtS he doesn't kill anybody - because he has to sell his show and it's impossible if the audience is truly horrified by his behavior.

As soon as he crosses over to Buffy, he is not a protagonist anymore and he can be the Big Bad of season 8. But as soon as he returns to his own show, writers have to embellish him.

Most likely the same would've happened to Spike if he'd spun off to his own show after season 6. But, since it didn't happen, he had to pay fully, to die saving the world to redeem himself. And - it was incredible. Epic.

I don't think fanfiction should follow canon blindly. Any character can be a protagonist in a fanfic, and any character can enjoy his protagonist privilege. If you don't want to go to the dark aspects of Spike and Buffy's relationship - skip them, rewrite them, reinvent them.

Your story - your rules.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think the AR becomes such a problem because it only works from a single perspective and that is as motivation for Spike to get a soul.

It does not work for Buffy, who is awkwardly constructed into the role. It does not work as a portrayal of rape, because it is essentially downplaying it (as a byproduct of violent sex). And in the end, it doesn't work for Spike either.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Xander might've, but as far as we know, he is not ever in contact with Angel. I've read fic where Xander calls Angel for some reason or other, but it never happened on the show. They just don't have that kind of relationship.

[shapinglight]

You can link it if you want, Sue. I've re-read it and I think it's pretty innocuous.

[shapinglight]

It is hard to "laugh away the horror", that's for sure. BtVS did it sometimes, and sometimes it worked, and sometimes it didn't (i'm thinking Buffy's joke in "Go! Fish" about being gang-raped by the monstrous swim team).

Yeah, I think it was okay for Buffy herself to laugh it away since it happened to her. But since she never does that with the AR, it's not appropriate in that case. It just isn't a subject for humour, which if nothing else, Joss and the Mutant Enemy writers seem to have realised.

I agree that much more would be made of those other things if we'd actually seen them presented as graphically as the AR. Instead, we're just told about them, or if we did see them, like the murder of Jenny Calendar, Joss was careful to show Angel in vamp face, so people would be able to differentiate between that Angel and the one kissing Buffy. I seem to remember that someone asked Marti (or possibly Jane E) why they didn't show Spike in vamp face during the AR to spare the audience) and she said they were tired of metaphor, or some such.

No doubt, they think the way they filmed it was more 'respectful' of the subject matter, but I'm not so sure it was. Quite the opposite really, since you end up feeling sorry for both parties, and you really shouldn't feel that way after such a scene (something Joss seems to have learned by Dollhouse season 1). Better would have been to never put Spike in that position in the first place.

At the end of the day, i will always regard actual committed murder as more grave than attempted rape. (And this is not meant to whitewash Spike, far from it! But in a pissing contest between Angel and Spike "who did Buffy more wrong" - eh. Throwing a highly manipulative way of telling their respective stories into their faces seems kinda off to me.)

Well put.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can't see Spike willing to discuss this with Angel, for a whole host of reasons. I don't see why he should. Angel isn't his therapist. (I've read some fic where Liam WAS William's shrink, though. Hee.)

[shapinglight]

Angelus was always conveniently in vamp-face when he did anything dirty because Joss wanted to create that separation.

Guess it shows the relative value Joss placed on the two characters. :gripe: :gripe:

[shapinglight]

And it's always Angelus - as if Joss wants to be sure that we get the difference the soul makes

Except in the Buffy comic. Not that this seems to have stopped the whitewashing.

All I can say is, the backlash over the AR should have shown Joss exactly why it's a bad idea to have a character do something unforgiveable.