Game of Thrones season 2 ep 3: the (almost) clueless about the books POV

[shapinglight]

Finally, finally, got around to watching this last night and - because I am still so far behind on LJ and can't catch up until I've done this- am sneakily writing a review at work. Bad me.

Spoilers behind the annoying little scissors.



Hmm. I think this was the first episode where it's struck me just how difficult this series has been to bring to the TV screen (well, obviously, I get the enormous logistical/technical difficulties, goes without saying). One of the chief difficulties, is, of course, that long-running TV series on the whole rely on continuity of characters. Yes, new characters will be introduced to keep things fresh, but usually the characters who started off as most important stay that way.

With GoT, it doesn't work in quite the same way. Most of the characters we were introduced to in season 1 are still around, but they're having to compete for space with the new characters. Some characters who weren't that important in season 1 - Theon Greyjoy, for instance - are clearly going to have more of a role in this season, while others (such as Robb Stark) are going to be considerably less in evidence.

In other words, it's a very tricky balancing act, between keeping the audience happy by giving them scenes with characters they're already invested in, and introducing new ones. So far, season 2 has managed this, but episode three gave me a hint - just a tiny hint - of how this could go wrong if the writers etc, are not careful.

On that note, in this particular episode, we have to say thank goodness for Tyrion Lannister and Arya Stark. They provide the required 'through put' from season one, while all around them things are changing and new characters are arriving thick and fast. Tyrion's scenes were wonderful in this ep (I enjoyed Bronn's one-liner too), and his way of working out who he could (provisionally) trust was highly amusing. He even managed to make the inclusion of one of Littlefinger's whores in a scene not gratuitous. Loved that Tyrion went back and gave her a second coin for putting up with Pycelle, who I won't miss at all.

Poor Tyrion! What a difficult business it is, trying to be a reasonable human being in that nest of vipers. He must know that, despite neither of them revealing his plans to Cersei, he can't trust Littlefinger or Varys, and Varys knows about Shae. That's bound to come out eventually in the worst way possible. It was kind of Tyrion to insinuate Shae into the royal household as Sansa's maid (the poor girl desperately needs someone to talk to), but it may come back to bite him in the end.

Meanwhile, Arya is in real trouble too. Her protector is dead (very heroic death for Yoren, btw, very 'northern'), and it's always possible that someone heard the conversation between the two of them, which struck me as very foolhardy on Yoren's part (otherwise known as giving the character his 'moment' before writing him out), not to mention that the fat boy at least knows that the boy the horrid Lannister soldier killed wasn't Gendry. Then there's those scary men in the cage, who may not feel too kindly towards Arya, even though she saved their lives.

Anyway, I love any scene featuring Tyrion or Arya so this episode had a lot to offer. Otherwise, apart from a lovely Sam Tarley scene beyond the Wall and a brief interlude with Bran and Maester Luwin (who I really like - please don't let him be evil) it was more about the new characters. Renly and Loras we've met before, or course, but Margery's new. Did enjoy her pragmatism about Renly needing to get her pregnant and if that required Loras's assistance, fair enough. Poor Renly looked quite shocked. Most of all with the Renly scenes, though, I liked Brienne. shipperx told me I would like the character, and I do. I really do. I am worried about Renly and his whole enterprise, however. He's just too 'nice' to win, I'm afraid, which I think his little scene with Catelyn and the man with the poorly foot was supposed to point out.

Finally (because no Robb, no Jaime, no Dany and Jorah, no Stannis), there's Theon. I'm not entirely sure what, beyond jealousy of his sister and outrage at their father preferring her to him, made him decide to burn his bridges with Robb, but any sympathy I felt for him in the previous episode pretty much disappeared in this one. I understand that he feels abandoned by his father, but Robb is his friend and Ned Stark has probably treated him way better than his father would have.

ETA: having read queenofthorns's awesome recap, I've re thought my position on Theon in this ep a bit. As she says, you can't help feeling a bit sorry for him when he rounds on his father and reminds him that he never wanted to go to Winterfell. His father gave him away. I still think he's making a mistake, though, in turning his back on his friendship with Robb.

Anyway, as of the end of this ep, we've met all the new characters (I think - or all the most important ones, or most of the important ones, whichever it is) and the clash of kings - Joffrey vs Stannis vs Renly vs Balon Greyjoy vs Robb Stark - is all set up. Roll on next week.

Trivial stuff:

Still can't get over how nice and normal Tommen and Myrcella are.
Cersei is an utter bitch to Sansa. Maybe that'll please the people who think she's being written too sympathetically.
Brienne is really tall, isn't she? Really tall.
Am a teensy bit worried that Renly is being written as so weak, given that he's the only gay character.
No Dany and Jorah! Meh!
Also, no one hit Joffrey, so I'm going to pretend Bronn did it offscreen.

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I can't wait until Brienne gets to King's Landing, so we can pretend that she's slapping Joffrey offscreen.

Or maybe we'll have to settle for her slapping Theon. That works too.

[shapinglight]

I can't wait until Brienne gets to King's Landing, so we can pretend that she's slapping Joffrey offscreen.

Ooh, yes! Good one. And Theon is very slappable, isn't he?

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Oh yes please! I can watch the whole episode of Brienne slapping people who need slapping! She can start with Littlefinger as they'll apparently meet soon. :D

[shapinglight]

:)

That would be awesome.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I thought the second coin was to keep her quiet.

>>>it's always possible that someone heard the conversation between the two of them, which struck me as very foolhardy on Yoren's part

I thought the same thing, why not take her outside or something?

Brianne's actress is 6'3" according to Empire. My jury is still out, but she looks promising.

[shapinglight]

I love Brienne to bits. I feel a bit better about Renly and co being so clueless now they have her around (though she seems a bit clueless too, so we'll see).

I'm certain the second coin was because Tyrion felt sorry for the poor whore for having to put up with an old goat like Pycelle.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

:) Yeah, I guess no one can really come out of the books and like Theon Greyjoy much.

I loved Tyrion in this episode and I adore him and Varys together.

I liked what they did with Margaery and it's nice to have more insight into Renly's host. In the books I did not have the impression that Renly comes of as weak, more like a young Robert. But he is somewhat naive thinking he can win his crown like Robert did it (in the songs, not in reality).

[shapinglight]

Yeah, I guess no one can really come out of the books and like Theon Greyjoy much.

He's not an attractive character, unfortunately, so kudos to the actor for portraying him so well. Like the kid who plays Joffrey.

But he is somewhat naive thinking he can win his crown like Robert did it (in the songs, not in reality).

Yes, he comes across as a bit of a male version of season 1 Sansa, so it's a good thing he's married Margaery. One of them has to be a pragmatist.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Yes, Renly and his people tick that way, they are partly amazingly competent. Renly would probaly make the best king, Loras and Brienne are basically the best knights in the country and the Tyrells are fairly able schemers as well.

But there are these romantic ideals they surf on, that make them blind to some things.

[shapinglight]

Renly would probaly make the best king, Loras and Brienne are basically the best knights in the country and the Tyrells are fairly able schemers as well.

I can see that Renly, Loras and Margaery potentially make a good team. It'll be interesting to see how that developes.

But there are these romantic ideals they surf on, that make them blind to some things.

I wonder if Renly even knows about the white raven?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

He's not an attractive character, unfortunately, so kudos to the actor for portraying him so well.

I think the actor is doing a very good job. I actually have more pity for Theon here than in the books, because in the books it was hard to moved passed reading his POV and knowing he's a misogynist troll.

[shapinglight]

His POV starts in book 2, I suppose? I can't imagine it's much fun to read.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

No, it's not. Read it for five minutes and you want brain bleach. Theon isn't malicious. He's weak and selfserving... and he's such a misogynist that he just comes off as vile.

On the otherhand, I can assure you that unless there's some major change, Maester Luwin is about as 'evil' as Dumbledore.

[shapinglight]

On the otherhand, I can assure you that unless there's some major change, Maester Luwin is about as 'evil' as Dumbledore.

Hooray! When re-reading my old reviews, I noticed that almost every time I mention him I put 'please don't let him be evil' in parentheses afterwards. ;) Wish I had an icon, but so far there are precious few season 2 icons I like batting around and certainly not any of Bran and Maester Luwin.

If this goes on, I shall be reduced to trying to make them myself. :(

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Books or TV, Tyrion/Varys scenes are always fun. :)

[shapinglight]

The one with the riddle was great, though I feel I need to listen to it again to work out exactly what the riddle was.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I always had the impression with Renly that he would be a good king but that doesn't necessarily track to being a good warrior king/conqueror. Had he inheireted a peaceful kingdom, though, he would do a good job. Unfortunately, Westeros is a chaotic mess.

[shapinglight]

Yes. Have to admit, I don't have much hope for his chances. Which is a pity. He'd be a better king than either Joffrey or Stannis.

Or maybe not. Maybe what Westeros needs is someone more like Robb - dour, but not completely humourless like Stannis. Because of winter coming.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Maybe what Westeros needs is someone more like Robb - dour, but not completely humourless like Stannis. Because of winter coming.
But Robb is marching in the wrong direction! Winter is coming yet he's going South for petty revenge... I say it's petty because if he wanted the girls back he could have traded them for Jaimie, or Sansa at least, just do what Cat wants. The rest of his demands is optional, not important in face of Winter and the Wall.

Jaimie was right in that Robb is good at winning battles, but what about the big picture? Again, winter is coming yet you want to break from the South, which can give you food and aid during winter...

We'll see. I think Jon would have been the better king than Robb. Also, Tyrion would have been a great king as well, if he could put serving the Realm above serving his family.
Renly/Tyrells? They could have a shot as a team. Tyrells are practical and ruthless, to compensate for Renly's softer side. Renly's strength is inspiring loyalty in people like Loras and Brienne.

[shapinglight]

But Robb is marching in the wrong direction! Winter is coming yet he's going South for petty revenge... I say it's petty because if he wanted the girls back he could have traded them for Jaimie, or Sansa at least, just do what Cat wants. The rest of his demands is optional, not important in face of Winter and the Wall.

I think no one - not even Robb and the northerners - is really taking winter very seriously just yet. They don't believe in the threat from beyond the Wall, because they haven't seen it. Silly of them, but understandable when they're so distracted. But yes. Robb should swap Jaime for Sansa.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Damn, and now they'll also have Greyjoys attacking from the rear! Much more immediate threat... Robb emptied his lands and took all his forces South. Not a wise move long-term, only as s short-term strategy to get the girls back. He should be done with that and hurry home!
But he's still so young, and while he commands his warriors they also influence him. He listens to them more than to his mother...

[shapinglight]

I'm now very worried what might happen to Bran and the others at Winterfell in Robb's absence. I can't see the Greyjoy's having much patience with a boy who can't walk.

[kikimay]

I need to see Robb slapping Joffrey. NEED!
Good episode, as always. So much love for Tyron and Varys plotting together, also Varys' speech about power is great, realistic, interesting. The Buffy in me(??) approves.
I'm anxious about Arya and I also need more Dany.

[shapinglight]

and I also need more Dany

Yes, I missed her.

I'd like to think that people could line up and take turns at slapping Joffrey, but I fear it'll never happen. :(

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Am a teensy bit worried that Renly is being written as so weak, given that he's the only gay character.

Ahahahahaha, sorry, that was just too funny. It gets two to tango, and 2 gay characters to show that they are gay. :D For each other. :D

Lorys isn't weak at all, he kicked ass in the first season as well and that what made me immediately love their paring: that they showed someone who's brave, ruthless, tenacious ("I hasn't been born a good fighter, I practice every day"), and noble in his own way who's also gay. And Renly's "stereotypical" gay traits such as being nice and soft, weren't shown as unsympathetic, but rather a refreshing contrast to Robert et al bloodthirsty cruelty, as an alternative world view, something to root for.

I must admit I had to rewind Renly/Lorys/Marjory scenes couple of times, they were so delightful. What was also so refreshing is that we were finally shown a pairing, I think the only pairng so far, or people who are equals, who love each other and who both are hot. :D We had Cat and Ned in the 1st season with a loving relationship but "hot" wouldn't be how I describe them. We had Dany and Drogo but they were never equals.

Every time they showed sex on GoT there was something disgusting about it (just my feelings, everyone's mileage may vary of course), be it whores, or powerplay, using someone, creepy incest etc. Renly/Lorys is the only pair I just enjoy looking at.

Now I agree that Cat's words about it being only a game for Renly, and of his people being knights of summer, cemented that Renly is not long for this world. And she is so right, of course. Damn, I hope they'll show more of him and of that triangle until they're killed in horrible ways. Maybe he'll last till end of season at least...

What's interesting there is that while Renly is too nice and doesn't realize he's just playing, he's also being played, by Lorys and Tyrells. Lorys is the one urging him on to be a king, and providing power and drive from his family. Lorys is a player in the Game of Thrones, but I'm afraid he'll find out that the game might cost him his love... Would he done differently then, I wonder? Run away with Renly, keep him out of this game, instead of forcing him into it? We'll see. But I fear bad things for them.

Now Arya... Damn. And here I thought, what on Earth could happen to her, she would just get back to Winterfell, meet her family and that's it. Also, my concerns about how 3 caged people could be employed at the Wall are now moot, I guess... Wonderful scenes with her and Yoren, he died a hero, but Arya and Gendry are in terrible position now.
I read TWOP forums to figure out that people who captured them are Tywin's bannermen from Harrenhal (which was given to Slynt by Jeoffrey), that Gold Cloaks never went back to KL for more troops because they met those people, and that's why they came back so fast for Yoren and his charges. It also explained why they kept carrying out Slynt orders even after he was sent to the Wall. I bet if they went back to KL they would have their orders to kill bastards cancelled, or changed to search for Arya.

And poor Sansa... Shae at least can be some company and outlet for her. Now Shae - will we learn more about her? Is she really just a whore or she's a spy from outside of 7 Kingdoms, as I suspected in Season 1?

Yes Tyrion, great play and one more disgusting person out of the game, keep it coming. Again, KL scenes are the best.

Now for Theon and his family - so far I just think they are all nasty creeps and can't care for any of them. Appreciate Theon's moral conflict but more in a cold, disinterested way.

Dany will be back in the next episode and they'll finally get somewhere.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In the books you always had to read the Renly/Loras through the subtext, but I definitely had the impression that with Renly/Loras it's genuinely romantic love. Yes, there's thrones gamesmanship, but the romantic love between them is genuine.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Ohh, I'm afraid I'm falling hard for them! Such a fascinating dynamic, in that here's love, but here's much more about both - also ambitions, plans, ideals, right and wrong etc. I want to see more about how it all interacts in them.
I envy Margeory: must be slasher's dream for her to be in this hot mess. :D

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to admit to loving Margery's and Loras's grandmother (who probably won't show up this year but should show up next... because she's awesome.) Their family sort of comes off like the Lannisters... if the Lannisters actually loved each other (in a non-incest way) and weren't out to destroy each other...and were organized by a matriarch. :)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Can't wait, it sounds awesome! Made me think of "Buffy", Larry's grandmother fixing him with dates. :D

What I loved about Tyrion last year and now Renly+Tyrells is that they are refreshing, normal, people, with values closer to ours, in the world which is over cruel and mad.
Tyrion was like a cynical, damaged Bilbo to me, presenting common sense view to the world of warriors hacking each other.
In a way, that's how I see Renly too.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I kind of enjoyed how efficiently they conveyed that Loras and Margaery are a united front by having Margaery cheer Loras on, and Loras being the one to go after his sister. You can sort of imagine them (and possibly granny) coming up with this situation as an ideal solution, with Loras pointing out that Margaery will no doubt have to have a political marriage no matter what, so why not marry his boyfriend? She can be a queen. He can be on the King's Guard (thus close to Renly and not expected to wed himself). After having an heir and a spare she can find love wherever she wishes and Renly is a-okay with that. They can watch each other's back and they all win and are happy. 'K? :)

[shapinglight]

:)

Sounds like that would have worked fine - if not for it being winter and there being nutters like Joffrey and Stannis gumming up the works.

[shapinglight]

Hi, Nata. You are of course right that Renly isn't the only gay character. There's Loras too. Dunno why I didn't count him.

They do make a very attractive couple, and I like Margaery's pragmatic contribution. I also agree that Renly's more stereotypical gay traits aren't being portrayed unsympathetically. I do think, though, that he's being shown as - if not weak, then not strong enough for what's coming. But that's as much down to temperament as anything.

Every time they showed sex on GoT there was something disgusting about it (just my feelings, everyone's mileage may vary of course), be it whores, or powerplay, using someone, creepy incest etc. Renly/Lorys is the only pair I just enjoy looking at.

No, you're right. Some people liked Dany/Drogo, but it wasn't for me. Too unequal. Drogo was in love with her, but you could see that wouldn't have stopped him smacking Dany around if he got irritated by her.

What's interesting there is that while Renly is too nice and doesn't realize he's just playing, he's also being played, by Lorys and Tyrells.

Oh yes, definitely. They're the ones pushing him.

:needs a Renly icon:

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I think Dany/Drogo started with Drogo being in full control but then flipped it over.

In the end they were unequal because Dany was using Drogo to achieve power and treated him like a pet, she was forcing him into decisions about things he didn't understand. She was the one with the knowledge, he was naive and in way above his head.
She forced him to fight for the "Iron Chair" which he didn't need, forced him to pillage and rape which lead to a revenge from Mirry (sp?) and for Dany losing him and the baby.
She made key decisions for him: pushing him into the Game of Thrones, then pushing him to be treated by Mirry, then forcing blood magic on him to buy his life, and finally, killing him because the life he got horrified her.

She could have chosen just to stay with Drogo and his people, have a baby, a family, leave Iron Throne alone. But power was more important for her and she paid the price.

I see parallel with Loras and Renly here, with Loras pushing Renly into the game, which may very well cost him his lover. They could just stay out of it and be together, but they are both drawn into this idea that it could be their destiny, that this will elevate them to greatness.
But unlike Drogo, I feel Renly is making much more informed choice. He wants it too. Interesting how Loras pushes him to do things Renly doesn't enjoy - draw blood, sleep with a woman, but Renly understands that this is the price to pay for being a king, and is willing to pay it.

[shapinglight]

Never really occurred to me to feel sorry for Drogo before, but I have always felt that Dany was more in love with Drogo's love of her than she was in love with him.

Renly definitely has a better idea of what he's getting into. He's lived in Kingslanding and he knows the Lannisters. He knew enough to flee the place when Robert was dying.

Found an icon, btw.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

She forced him to fight for the "Iron Chair" which he didn't need, forced him to pillage and rape which lead to a revenge from Mirry

I don't think Dany forced Drogo to fight. He initially refused to fight, refused her wishes, all for his own reasons -- he didn't care about her wants for the Iron Throne, instead thinking she should be happy carrying his son. It's only when Dany's brother threatens the life of his wife and son, only when Westeros sends an assassin to kill Dany -- then he cares. It's about wounded pride, about his warrior honor, as well as about killing the people who will keep trying to kill his wife and his son.

So, no force involved by Dany. She tried to influence him into invading Westeros, he put her off. Then when it became clear that they were a threat to him, then he vowed to invade that land, kill all the men, and "rape" all the women as a Dothraki warrior.

Wait -- you're saying Dany forced him to rape and pillage? But... no. She was against the Dothraki raping and pillaging. She stopped the Dothraki from raping and pillage. And Mirri Maz Duur's revenge was purely against Drogo and the raping/murdering/enslaving ways of the Dothraki who were a blight upon her people and the world. Mirri got her revenge against Drogo inspite of feeling indebted to Dany for her kindness.

She could have chosen just to stay with Drogo and his people, have a baby, a family, leave Iron Throne alone. But power was more important for her and she paid the price.

Unfortunately she couldn't do that since Westeros would keep sending assassins to kill her and her son. She wants power, yes, but she's also a target. There is no ~safe~ for her in the game of thrones. Never has been. It's why she was on the run and in hiding for so long.

Drogo might be naive to the more complex politics and backstabbing ways of Westeros -- but he's part of a brutal warrior culture. There's no need to force him to fight/rape/kill since that's the way of his culture.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Oh, Drogo certainly would be happy to rape and pillage on his own, he wasn't forced into it in literal sense.
It just that he had to do pillaging on a much larger scale than his norm, and he initially didn't like the thought of it because of inherent risks to his khalasar.
They had to sack whole towns to get money for ships etc., you would expect a much larger backlash for that. If it wasn't Mirry, someone else would have had a revenge.

Yes, the assasin on Dany was a last straw for him to make a decision, but she was niggling him on it for a long time.

She wanted the Iron Throne not just to stop attempts on her life. She wanted to be *something*, as opposed to *nothing* her brother made her feel. She wanted to be home, to have a place inlife, and that place to be of power, where she couldn't be touched, couldn't be treated as nothing like before.

Her other option was to run away with Jorah when Drogo was dying. To keep the baby and stay out of the game.
But she'd rather be a queen of about 30 people in a desert, to be something for those people, than be a nobody in yet another exile.

Her motto so far seems to be to "make those who wronged me or mine to die screaming". She wants power and she has the mad Targarean streak in her all right. And she's already burned a person alive, like a Mad King. I suspect her journey won't be simple.

Her story in Season 1 was "be careful for what you wish", like for many others in the series.
She wanted her husband to fight a war for her, she was proud and jazzed when he was shouting about raping and pillaging to get her the Iron Chair. But when she saw how it looked in real life, she tried to stop it. And the further events - her husband wounded and then dead, her baby sacrificed - stemmed from her desire for the Throne.