Game of Thrones season 2 ep 4: The (almost) clueless about the books POV

[shapinglight]

Just watched this and :whimper:

Spoilers behind cut.



Have to say, this was rather a horrid episode and I no longer want someone to slap Joffrey. I just want them to chuck him off the nearest battlement. In an episode with an awful lot of very nasty scenes his scene with Ros and the other whore (which I bet wasn't in the book) was by far the nastiest. I say this because the scene with the Lannister soldiers and the rat in the bucket wasn't quite as nasty as I thought it was going to be, because I thought they were going to put the bucket on the poor bloke's head.

Thank goodness Lord Tywin turned up and put a stop to all that, even if it was for purely practical reasons. I almost cheered when he saw straight through Arya's disguise and rescued her from her horrible situation (for now), again for purely practical reasons. Also, Charles Dance has such presence as Tywin. He's just brilliant.

Elsewhere, Tyrion is still trying to behave like a human being (I loved his rescue of Sansa, and Bronn's one liner this week was laugh-out-loud funny - would like an icon of it, but I'd never dare use it). Even in his dealings with stompy, petulant Cousin Lancel he tried to behave not too cruelly. Poor Tyrion. It's not that he's naive or stupid (quite the opposite), but he really is too good to have to put up with all these idiots (except Sansa, who somehow or other is still functioning despite Joffrey's cruelty).

I was glad to see Dany and Jorah again. Dany's attempted face down of the Thirteen of Quarth was a terrific scene (and Jorah did look particularly handsome in it), but I do have a very bad feeling about that Quarth place. Wouldn't surprise me if the inhabitants turned out to be cannibals or something equally horrid. Also, why did that one member of the Thirteen decide to stick out his neck for Dany? He looks nice and kind, but this episode left me suspecting everybody.

This was not helped by the fact that it started off with one of Robb Stark's men suggesting that a good prisoner flaying would make everyone feel better. With people like that around, you know it's not as simple as one side being good and the other bad.

Finally, Renly, Stannis and their followers, currently including Catelyn. I thought Michelle Fairley was brilliant in the scene where Littlefinger gave her Ned's remains but unfortunately found Aiden Gillen once again a little unconvincing, except when he was being all 'do you want your daughters back?' devious. It's not that I don't believe in Littlefinger's feelings for Catelyn exactly, but more that I felt he would be too clever to play the 'I love you' card at that juncture. I dunno. I just think Littlefinger hasn't been that well written so far.

Anyway, in view of the - yet again - very unpleasant final scene with Melisandre and the phantom pregnancy (literal phantom pregnancy, that is), I am now officially worried about Renly and co. We've only just met Brienne and Margaery, and only just been reintroduced to Renly and Loras. I now have a nasty feeling they won't be sticking around for very long. Also, that no matter how nasty things were in this ep, they can still get nastier. I can't believe they introduced the flaying!yay! bloke for no reason.

Like I said: :whimper:

Trivial stuff:
Why doesn't that attractive young healer lady Robb met on the battlefield have to wear one of those stupid headdresses the other women were wearing?

Aside: Not trivial at all. I'm not sure how old the kid playing Joffrey is, but anyone else concerned that he'll be traumatised for life by having to act scenes like that one with Ros?

Comments

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

He's 19.

[makd.livejournal.com]

!!!!!

He looks maybe 13!!! How? What? Yikes!!

[shapinglight]

That's a relief. Still awfully young, though.

[kikimay]

In Wikipedia I read that he wants to quit acting after GoT. He plays such a spoiled bastard, poor boy! Joffrey's scenes are the most disturbing, because the character's personality is clearly sadistic.
I'm impressed by Melisandre's final scene.
Tyrion, Dani and Arya: <3

[shapinglight]

Joffrey's scenes are the most disturbing, because the character's personality is clearly sadistic.

Yes, I do hope the poor kid's not a method actor. He'd definitely be traumatised trying to think himself into that mindset.

I agree the final Melisandre scene was impressive. I think I would have found it more so if there'd been a little less female nudity in this ep. That said, I agree with the posters below that the Joffrey/Ros scene, while very unpleasant, did serve some function in the story, unlike the Ros/Littlefinger scene in ep 2.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

This was not helped by the fact that it started off with one of Robb Stark's men suggesting that a good prisoner flaying would make everyone feel better. With people like that around, you know it's not as simple as one side being good and the other bad.


Heh! Yeah, I"m really glad they introduced Lord Bolton for precisely that reason. It was definitely clear in the books that one side in a civil war doesn't have a monopoly on cruelty but on the show thus far, they've really played up the heroic Northerners versus the effete, cowardly and ineffective Southerners!


Why doesn't that attractive young healer lady Robb met on the battlefield have to wear one of those stupid headdresses the other women were wearing?

This is totally something you'd only get from the books, but the headdress ladies are Silent Sisters who tend to the corpses of the dead. (I don't know if you remember but they had some in the very first episode around Jon Arryn's corpse and another one was sewing up the young knight who got Gregor Clegane's spear through his throat.) They're sort of combination nuns/embalmers, but Talisa was just a nurse. Although why she thought a man's leg was "rotting" ONE DAY after the battle and why amputating it in the middle of a mud puddle without even the sketchiest attempt at hygiene was going to make it better sort of escapes me :P

I think the Joffrey-Ros-other girl scene was basically to show that while Joffrey can't directly challenge Tyrion, he hates him and will do anything to harm him. His face/behavior totally changed when he was told that Tyrion had sent him the whores, basically. So I think he was sending a message to his uncle. (And also in the books, there's mention of him torturing cats; he's much younger than he is on the series so the sexual perversion is probably just a later stage in his development.) I actually think the comparisons to Mad King Aerys are very apt; I believe he's criminally insane!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I figure that was part of the purpose of showing the Lannister soldiers joking about before being slaughtered by dire wolves and of Not!Jeyne telling Robb that the guy whose foot she amputated was just a local lad.

One thing I appreciated about Arya's story in the book (which seems a bit condensed here) is that as she, Gendry, and PotPie (eta: *snerk* Brain fart. Not "Pot Pie" but "Hot Pie". Pot Pie takes on a whole new meaning) try to make their way though the war we're given a ground- peasant eye view of what this "war of five kings" mean, making Ser Jorah's words more true than ever that the peasants don't care about the elite's game of thrones. They want peace and a good harvest. They want to be able to live without being raped, tortured, trampled, and destroyed at every turn. All of the "Lords" games are ugly when seen from the view of the collateral damage.

(That said, I've always held a grudge again Tywin as Tywin specifically ordered The Mountain to go out to bring terror on the Riverlands. The Mountain wasn't acting solely on his own initiative (though he certainly had nothing against it). They were there for "shock and awe" on the general's orders).

[shapinglight]

Yeah, I"m really glad they introduced Lord Bolton for precisely that reason. It was definitely clear in the books that one side in a civil war doesn't have a monopoly on cruelty but on the show thus far, they've really played up the heroic Northerners versus the effete, cowardly and ineffective Southerners!

Hm, I'm not sure I agree that the southerners have been shown as effete and cowardly. Nothing about Tywin Lannister is either of those things. I think perhaps that up to this point we were meant to see the Northerners' war as just, because it was - again, up to a point. But Robb didn't call out his bannermen to become king, but to rescue his father, so the righteousness is rapidly leaking from his cause, so introducing this flaying!yay! person is probably very apt.

Must say, given what shipperx says about the Boltons below, I hope they won't go into too much detail about what they get up to. This episode rated pretty high on the queasy-making scale for me. I don't know if I can go much higher and still keep watching. :(

Re: Talisa, if that's her name in the show, I agree with you that her field amputation made no sense at all. A bit like Tywin butchering a deer in his nice, clean tent, the scene was there more to show how well-hard she was and give her something to do while she talked to Robb.

I also agree that the Joffrey/Ros scene had a point, unlike her scene with Littlefinger. And I'd probably rather have this - especially since they faded to black before it got too awful - than see him torturing cats.

[tamakin.livejournal.com]

Haha probably not as traumatised as that younger kid who had to suckle a fake breast.... i sure know that one traumatised ME more than anything lol!

And hi *waves* Ive just caught up with this series so can read your posts and understand now. Yay! Though i wont be back on LJ with any regularity until after my exams. Boo! Hope youre well. :)

[shapinglight]

Haha probably not as traumatised as that younger kid who had to suckle a fake breast.... i sure know that one traumatised ME more than anything lol!

Yeah, I'd forgotten that. And he really was a kid too. I hope he didn't get teased about it too much at school. :(

Nice to see you, Tam, and good luck with your exams.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'll just say straight-out that flaying bloke (or rather the flaying family) are the most nightmare inducing characters in the entire book series (and, yes, I'm including Joffrey... who was a full blown psychopath even in the books). But the Boltons? (The guy who was introduced is Roose Bolton) The Boltons are mindshudderingly HORRIBLE villains. It's just... guh!

No the Joffrey/Ros scene wasn't in the book. But I can sort of see why it was inserted as it does reaffirm that he's a sexual sadist, something only hinted at by the Sansa beatings in the novel. This makes it literally explicit. But I can see where additional though it is, it isn't without purpose.

The 'nice' Qarth character... I remember him, but I can't remember whether I'm simply mis-remembering him, because I thought he was in a different location. I'd have to go back to the books to know for sure, though.

And, minor spoiler, my main memory of Dany's time in Qarth is that she's given a huge (multi-season plot-fortelling) prophecy. I always enjoy those. It should be "Restless" worthy.

[shapinglight]

But the Boltons? (The guy who was introduced is Roose Bolton) The Boltons are mindshudderingly HORRIBLE villains. It's just... guh!

:whimpers some more: I hope they'll rein back on showing their depredations. For me, in this case, telling would be much better than showing.

I agree that the Joffrey/Ros scene served a purpose. I just hope they feel they got their point home about Joffrey in that scene and won't be inclined to repeat it.

And, minor spoiler, my main memory of Dany's time in Qarth is that she's given a huge (multi-season plot-fortelling) prophecy. I always enjoy those. It should be "Restless" worthy.

Ooh, interesting. I'll look forward to seeing more of that.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Looks to be an overload of psychopathic sadists in this world. Those Bolton guys, Jeoffrey, Mountain, Mad King, caged NW guys - they are popping up everywhere. As if the usual level of war atrocities and medieval cruelty isn't enough, we need a dozen psycho characters as well?
What's up with that - survival of the fittest in Westeros, where sadistic psychos get a leg up? Seems a but too much, pushing it more to the horror genre from fantasy/gritty realism.

Wouldn't complain if they tone it down, or if they decide to NOT show the full array of psychos from the books.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I have to say I thought not only was this ep horrid (it had the only scene so far that made me squirm – the foot being hacked off), it was also the worst - from the campy OTTness of The Thirteen, to Tywin’s mightily convenient timing, to Mrs Renly’s (I can’t remember her name) awful outfit, to Ser’s lousy rowing that went nowhere, it just wasn’t the quality I expect, damn it!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I couldn't watch the Harrenhal torture scenes. But that's my general squeamishness. In a more objective sense I was worried that they'd underplay the horror in the show, because it was really important for Arya's story to understand that Harrenhal is hell on earth. When reading the book, I kept thinking she was in Westeros' Auschwitz.

If it wasn't gutwrenchingly, shudderingly, unbearably horrifying it would miss how permanently scarring this becomes to her mental landscape. This is something she never forgets or forgives.

[shapinglight]

I was just about to ask you when the lousy rowing occurred, but then I remembered. Was it that bad? I'd have to watch again to make sure.

I don't think the Thirteen were any more camp and OTT than the Dothraki, were they?

I do agree about Mrs Renyly's outfit. She seems to favour some very odd necklines.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

the rat in the bucket wasn't quite as nasty as I thought it was going to be

There's a similar scene in American Psycho, so nothing they could do with it would make it more horrible than I already knew it could be.

Melisandre's birth scene was creepy as hell, especially with how little actual fantasy there's been in this fantasy story so far. Nicely balanced with Dany refusing to bargain with her dragons (and Gendry saying there's no such thing as dragons).

Also, with you on Joffrey. Bleak, nasty, brutish and (hopefully) short.

[shapinglight]

There's a similar scene in American Psycho, so nothing they could do with it would make it more horrible than I already knew it could be.

I haven't, of course, seen that. Don't like horror films.

Melisandre's birth scene was creepy as hell, especially with how little actual fantasy there's been in this fantasy story so far. Nicely balanced with Dany refusing to bargain with her dragons (and Gendry saying there's no such thing as dragons).

Yes, good point. The birth scene was on a par with Mirri Maaz Duur nasty shenanigans on Drogo's tent in season 1. You just don't expect anything good to come of anything supernatural in this world.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Bolton,crazy creeps. I have to say that is basically my only real beef with the books (and likely with the show). I like nitty gritty. But I really could do without the freakshow of crazy torturers that run around.

The Jeoff scene was added, but it fits his personality...

I loved Bronn in this episode and I also liked the introduction of Xaro Xoran Daxos. There is quite a lot on the Tyrion and Dany side of things that I am looking forward too in this season.

I wonder what they have in mind for Arya since they seem to deviate from the books here too (in a good way though).
If I remember correctly she and Tywin never really interact in the book.

[shapinglight]

I have to say that is basically my only real beef with the books (and likely with the show). I like nitty gritty. But I really could do without the freakshow of crazy torturers that run around.

If they're too explicit with it, I may have to bail. I really don't want to, but I am pretty squeamish. :(

I loved Bronn in this episode and I also liked the introduction of Xaro Xoran Daxos. There is quite a lot on the Tyrion and Dany side of things that I am looking forward too in this season.

I enjoyed the Dany and Bronn scenes too. I'm looking forward to learning more about this Quarth place. As for Arya, interesting that her story's deviated from the books, though from what shipperx says, her story in the books is so grim that I can't really say I'm sorry if they're altered it.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping she gets needle back. They waited so long in the books that it was anti-climactic.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Jeoffrey/Ros scene was off the scale horrifying, I still can't shake it off.
What a vile abomination he is. He needs to die SOON in a VERY horrible way! Or caged like Hannibal Lecter. With poetic justice being a motto of this show, maybe that Roose Bolton guy can cross paths with him? Or that shadow monster?
Ugh. I don't want to see anything like that ever again on this show or I'll bail (except if it happens to Jeoffrey. Yep, I'll make an exception just for him).

That scene kinda overshadowed other horrors, but Harrenhal was awful and broke my heart for poor Arya. She's just a child, this will be so damaging for her... Her saying that prayer... That senseless horrible torture - I cheered for Tywin when he showed up and stopped that madness. But how Arya will negotiate her way around him - she's not a diplomate.
I only realized that tall guy in a stupid-looking helmet next to the torturer was supposed to be Mountain after reading TWOP forums. I thought he was just some flankie for Polliver, i.e. to guys who captured Arya. OK. So him being Mountain explains the senselessness of torture, he's the guy who would do it just for fun. But meh, the previous Mountain was so much more impressive.

What other bad things were there? Amputated foot got kinda buried under worse things later on, but that nurse had a point. Robb is stuck in a mode of winning battles and is losing the big plot. Trade the girls and hurry home, PLEASE!

Sansa scene was completely overshadowed by what Jeoffrey did later, but I'm kinda glad I didn't have to see more grafic beating and humiliation of Sansa. I dreaded this scene from the preview. Good on Tyrion to rescue her, but oh boy is he in for a nasty suprise with Jeoffrey!
What he (and Cersei, as I think Cersei will know) would do about it?

And now the shadow monster... I actually was more exasperated with it than creeped out.
For me Stannis, Davos and the "red woman" are dull, dull, dull, and I hate to think that they will prevail over Renly's camp which is much more interesting and enjoyable to watch, and we will be stack with that boring trio for a long time.
I'm just not buying Melisandre as a righteous religious zealot. They are usually done badly. Made me bail on Caprica too.
My reaction on seeing that monster was: WHY? And - oh please, she has superpowers now? Meaning she'll get more screen time? Ugh. And do we need more magic? I got used to the gritty realism, with dragons being the only miracle and the supernatural horrors threatening only from behind the Wall. To have another one landing in the middle of the plot was... annoying.
So I guess the dead which danced over Drogo were real too? For some reason I took them just as Mirri's tricks, and her description of Dany's "monster baby" just a psychological attack on Dany, that she just made it up. OK, I'd know better now.

Nice things in the episode: Tyrion! Tyrion taking down Lancel was hilarious, as well as "this is a threat, see the difference".
Nice one from Renly too: "is he a ham"? And Margeorie's takedown of LF. Hee, she was right on target with him being an unattached peeping Tom for so many years, what's his deal exactly here? And why is he so obsessed with other people intimate stuff, like Varys etc.?

[shapinglight]

Jeoffrey/Ros scene was off the scale horrifying, I still can't shake it off.

I agree. It really was horrible. I was watching it sort of through my fingers and my main thoughts were wanting it to be over and feeling really bad for the kid playing Joffrey.

I cheered for Tywin when he showed up and stopped that madness. But how Arya will negotiate her way around him - she's not a diplomate.

It'll be interesting to see. I cheered too, though as queenofthorns says above, we should remember that Tywin is the Mountain's boss. He doesn't really care if the Mountain tortures peasants for fun, as long as him doing so doesn't hamper the war effort, which it did in this ep, as the Mountain was wasting good men with skills that could have been utilised.

The problem you have with Melisandre's magic didn't bother me, as I always thought Mirri Maaz Duur's magic was the real deal. I think both in that case and in this, the magic was suffciently nasty to make me feel it fits just perfectly in this extremely imperfect world.

It is hard to find stuff to enjoy in this ep, though. I hope it's not the start of a trend.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Don't ever wish a Bolton on anyone. GRRMartin will make you sorry. (He certainly made me sorry!)

What a vile abomination he is. He needs to die SOON in a VERY horrible way!

You'll get half. I won't say which half. ;)

Sansa scene was completely overshadowed by what Jeoffrey did later, but I'm kinda glad I didn't have to see more grafic beating and humiliation of Sansa. I dreaded this scene from the preview. Good on Tyrion to rescue her, but oh boy is he in for a nasty suprise with Jeoffrey!
I kind of knew going into it that they'd have to tone down the Sansa stripping because the actress is a minor and you just can't do that. Tyrion does rescue her in the book, too, though.

So I guess the dead which danced over Drogo were real too?
It's never clear.

And even the limits of Melisendre's power...it's a tad unclear how much is real and how much is magician's tricks. The answer I guess is that it's both.

The conceit with the books is that either the comet or the dragons (chicken and egg debate)have returned magic to the world, so there are (spare) bits of magic. Magic, however, rarely solves anything.

[caliente-uk.livejournal.com]

It was very grim, wasn't it? And I thought there was a tad too much female nudity in this ep for me to be comfortable with. But it's still the best thing on TV at the moment, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the rest of the season holds.

King Joffrey needs to die NOW! He really is a sadistic little monster. The actor who plays him is doing a brilliant job with the character though - and I'm glad to hear he's actually older in RL than he looks!

Tyrion still remains my favourite character by far, and I have to say Jorah looked particularly attractive in this episode! I was also glad to hear another one-liner from Bronn, who delivers them so wonderfully.

Liking a character on this show is a dangerous thing to do, though, as you never know how long they're going to last. I keep telling myself not to get too attached to anyone!

[shapinglight]

It was very grim, wasn't it? And I thought there was a tad too much female nudity in this ep for me to be comfortable with. But it's still the best thing on TV at the moment, and I'm looking forward to seeing what the rest of the season holds

I think this sums it up pretty well. ;)

Liking a character on this show is a dangerous thing to do, though, as you never know how long they're going to last. I keep telling myself not to get too attached to anyone!

Yeah,
it's a bit like BtVS only worse, because in this, the character you like might die after being horribly tortured and flayed alive. :whimper:

Actually, from what I hear, having Tyrion as a favourite is pretty safe (so far).