Game of Thrones season 2 ep 10 : The (almost) clueless about the books POV

[shapinglight]

Just watched this and :bawls like a baby:

Spoilers behind cut.



They killed Maester Luwin. The bastards! I've been dreading that all season and now it's finally happened. Also, if Sam's dead too I shall write and complain. I shall!

This finale was very grim indeed. Well, the previous one had some pretty grim moments, but at least it had some uplifting stuff too. Not so here. Instead, we have Tyrion treated like crap when he saved everyone in the previous episode, Robb still being mean to his mum (I really don't care about him at all now. Idiot!) and Sansa doomed to become Joffrey's abused f**ktoy unless she can be very clever indeed.

I don't know. She shows flashes of there being something going on underneath (in the previous episode, for instance, when she asked Joffrey, all faux innocence, if he would be fighting in the vanguard), but the rest of the time it really does seem as if she still believes that being sweet and pretty and never arguing is going to be enough to save her. Also, though I quite understand why she didn't trust Littlefinger, I have no idea why she didn't take up his offer. Or why she didn't go with the Hound, which is what I thought had happened last episode. I can't decide whether it's because she wants to stay and fight in her own way, or if she's just too afraid to take the chance.

So, all those things were big downers, as was everything at Winterfell (first time I've cried watching this show, I really did like Maester Luwin a lot), even Theon being dragged off to his grisly fate, though I'm glad we didn't have to see any more. I know he was an idiot, but I still hated seeing him betrayed like that. Also, it looks like Maester Luwin's advice to Osha to take the boys north is going to turn out to be very bad advice, given what's approaching the Wall from the other side (and please, please let Sam not be dead!) Also, what on earth was going on with Qhorin Halfhand? Am I missing something, because it seemed to me that he was trying to get Jon Snow to kill him.

So, what wasn't quite so much of a downer? The nature of this show being what it is, Stannis almost strangling Melisandre, if only because he seemed to be feeling some remorse for killing Renly. The look of relief on Sansa's face when she realises she won't have to marry Joffrey after all. Jaime Lannister's shocked expression when Brienne showed that she's not to be messed with. Lord Varys making Ros a better offer. Shae's loyalty. Arya's exchanges with Jaquen, and finally, Dany getting her dragons back, and the fact that whatever bad stuff is going to cause a rift between her and Jorah has been put off till next season. Also, the scene with Phantom!Khal Drogo and the baby was the first time I've ever felt 'shippy about those two.

Actually, that whole vision/dream scene was beautifully done.

Probably says something about this season, though, that, yet again the final Dany scene began with her ordering someone's horrible death (last season Mirri Maaz Duur, this season XXD and Doreah -who wasn't the lady in the mask after all), but that everything else about that scene was very downbeat compared to this year. In fact, you couldn't really have a more downbeat ending than an army of zombies marching towards the Wall.

Can only conclude with, I still love this show. It's cruel to make us wait a whole year to find out what happens next. And please don't let Sam be dead!

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

There's something very wrong when Maester Luwin is dead and Pycelle comes out on top. Damnit.

I still hope Tywin will realise that he needs Tyrion to help handle things. They still have a war to win, after all, and it's not like Joffrey can run anything on his own...

I'm pretty sure Sam's alive. This army doesn't look like it's in the habit of taking prisoners, so if they didn't kill him on sight, they probably just couldn't be bothered. They have warm, mushy, southern brains to eat, after all.

Oh, and how incredibly stupid was that multiple wizard guy around Dany? He notes that the dragons are fond of her, and then he imprisons her in front of them? Even if he thought they couldn't roast him alive yet, that's hardly a good plan for the future either... Then again, I kind of like that everyone's underestimating her. Magic's coming back, but it's been gone for so long that people don't treat it with proper respect. (See also Tywin's and Arya's discussion of what happened to Harrenhall when the dragons got there...)

Shae's loyalty.

Oh yes. (I don't know why the succeed so well with Shae and yet cannot seem to make... whatsherface, Robb's Shae Jr., the least bit interesting. Then again, Robb's half the character Tyrion is too...)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Sam's alive. This army doesn't look like it's in the habit of taking prisoners, so if they didn't kill him on sight, they probably just couldn't be bothered. They have warm, mushy, southern brains to eat, after all

Yeah. I think if the show wanted Sam dead, they'd show Sam being killed here. If that's his end, why hold off?

[shapinglight]

:Clings to your comment:

[shapinglight]

There's something very wrong when Maester Luwin is dead and Pycelle comes out on top. Damnit.

I know. GRRM is way more evil than Joss. Luwin was such a decent bloke.

I still hope Tywin will realise that he needs Tyrion to help handle things. They still have a war to win, after all, and it's not like Joffrey can run anything on his own.

I hope so too, but I think Tywin just hates Tyrion, unfortunately, for the same reason that Cersei does.

You're probably right about Sam. I hope so anyway. I am surprised they didn't kill him, though. I also did wonder if the zombie on the horse who looked at him might have been Uncle Benjen.

The multiple wizard was stupid. I think he just underestimated Dany, like you said. Or perhaps thought all the power was in the dragons, who are tiny, so he doesn't really have to fear them, whereas it seemed that Dany's body amplified the flame and made it much stronger.

Then again, Robb's half the character Tyrion is too...

So much yes! Robb needs a good slapping for what he said to his mum. Since Bronn's been demoted and can't slap Joffrey any more, maybe he'd like to do it.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, I was so angry with Robb not to just waste more screentime on his boring love affair and his boring wedding, but also for having the gall to blame his mum for it!

How could he even compare her "betrayal", which was done to save his sisters and her daughters, and was done by her privately, not in any leadership capacity, and what he is doing - which is breaking an oath and angering an ally, while being in command, and just because he likes some girl!

I was so angry with him! And ffs do something about Winterfell! Was that Bolton Bastard who sacked it? WIll Robb know? Ugh, such a mess...

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

That was - I believe - our first glimpse of a White Walker - which is the reason the wall was built.

As for the multiple wizard and dragons being stolen - hard to say - this was much more complex in the books with flashes of past and future events which pan out and give some key info.

In simplifying the books they have created a few major holes - why didn't Arya have Tywin killed is another one.

Oh, and Robb's mysterious foreign lady/camp follower/ Florence Nightengale is also not in the book. However, either way - he did not keep his word and marry a Walder whelp, either way.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

They killed Maester Luwin.
I know, right. His death always broke my heart. I was hoping the show would give him a stay of execution and let him tag along to take care of Rickon. (And I had a slight, inappropriate LOL that Bran is in a wheelbarrow. It's one thing in the book to write that Hodor carries Bran everywhere and another to make an actor carry a quickly growing boy!)

Maester Luwin's advice to Osha to take the boys north is going to turn out to be very bad advice, given what's approaching the Wall from the other side
Does anyone ever actually get to where they are going in this show/books? (Well, yeah, a few characters do but we won't talk about that now.) I was surprised they didn't develop Bran's connection with his Wolf more. But, I guess, there's time.

Also, though I quite understand why she didn't trust Littlefinger, I have no idea why she didn't take up his offer.
I was surprised he came right out and made her that offer. In the book there was subterfuge involved. But, I do think at this point Sansa can't bring herself to TRUST anyone enough to take a chance... and I can't really blame her.

If someone asked me to choose between the behind the scenes string pullers Littlefinger and Varys, I'd have to side with Varys. (I loved his little look of disgust at Littlefingers brownnosing and preening.)

And call me crazy, but I thought I saw one tiny, sliver of compassion for Sansa in Cersei (not that it will last). Show Cersei knows what a monster her son is. I think she saw the Tyrells as a better political connection (which they are), so why not support the Tyrell/Lannister alliance... and she knows that Sansa wouldn't mind being denied that fate. She never would have done it for Sansa... but she's also not unaware that Sansa would appreciate not having to marry Cersei's sociopathic offspring.

And, again Yay! They didn't cut Tyrion's nose off. I always thought that the scar was enough. The nose thing was just ookie.

Also, yes, Quorin was making Jon kill him (though I swear I don't think that Jon ever figured that out.) In the book it was a bit more explicit, though they did have the scene a couple of weeks ago with Q telling Jon to do what he had to when the time came. I guess Q thought that as they were captured they were both cooked, but if he treated Jon as a traitor, Jon could become a mole (if Jon is smart enough to figure that out. Book Jon is no genius but Show Jon (if possible) seemed even more slow! Heh. Anyway, Jon now gets to play the role of turncloak... let's see if he can pull it off (and if he can, for how long).

And I still want to see the mamoths! This show had better not deny me mamoths! Mamoths are cool. :)

And, Dany is interesting because, quite frankly at some points she can be downright scary. You can definitely see the Targ in her.

[shapinglight]

I know, right. His death always broke my heart. I was hoping the show would give him a stay of execution and let him tag along to take care of Rickon.

:( I'd rather he had and they'd left out these other characters, who are going to show up next season.

But, I do think at this point Sansa can't bring herself to TRUST anyone enough to take a chance... and I can't really blame her.

No, me neither. I do worry what will happen to her now, though. I would have to watch again to convince myself that Cersei felt some pity for her. It wasn't my impression while I was watching that scene. Either way, i think Cersei won't find Margaery Tyrell (who had forgotten the front of her dress again) as easy to control.

Also, yes, Quorin was making Jon kill him (though I swear I don't think that Jon ever figured that out.)

I'm pretty sure he didn't. He seems to be incredibly dense. Qhorin more or less had to spell it out for him.

And mammoths? Squee!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I know, right. His death always broke my heart.

Just out of curiosity - who's the POV character for his death in the books?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Bran.

So, yeah, heartbreaking.

Though parts of the sacking of Winterfell were changed, the part where Bran, Osha, Rickon, and Hodor find Luwin dying in the Godswood is pretty much the same in context (I don't remember the dialog).

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

So - wanna speculate on who the 3 dragon riders will be? Obviously Dani is one. Any ideas on the others?

Also - who is Jon Snow's mother? Got some interesting ideas there, too.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think -- based on no evidence whatsoever, mind you -- that Jon's mother was Ned's sister Lyanna and that his father was Rhaegar Targaryen, conceived when Rhaegar 'kidnapped' Lyanna. And Ned promised his sister on her deathbed that he would take care of her child, and to protect Jon from Robert 'I want all Targaryens killed' Baratheon, Ned claimed his sister's bastard as his own... which I guess would make Jon a candidate for dragon rider.

But there's nothing to base any of that on beyond wild guessing.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Maybe Arya? :)
She told the story about it, and there were two women riders and one man. So Arya might be another.

But Jon Snow has a direwolf. He can't have a dragon too... Maybe Jorah? nah...

I don't think there are more Targereans left, except Dany and maybe Jon Snow, so anyone can be 3rd.

[paratti.livejournal.com]

Qhorin Halfhand was trying to make Jon kill him so he would be accepted by the Wildings and be a spy for the Watch. Its why they showed his one man on the inside is worth a hundred out in the previouslies.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, I think it must have been Jon's obvious lack of comprehension (boy, is he slow!) that made me doubt whether I was seeing what I was seeing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Heh.

Ygritte's constantly saying, "You know nothing, Jon Snow" irritated me in the books, but seeing it on screen... give the girl credit for calling it as she sees it. :)

[lyr]

It could have been worse - I thought it was going to be - but it was still a pretty big gut-punch. I thought Luwin's death was played well, though, and the burning of Winterfell is its own kind of awful wrench. Sam is obviously in a hell of a spot. Poor Sansa has developed the sense not to trust anyone in King's Landing, especially not people who were in power when her father was killed. Jon, never super swift on the uptake, managed to do what Qhorin wanted, at least. I think the wizard thought he'd be safe on the other side of Dany, especially since the dragons are still small. Clearly he didn't know that Targaryens are fire-proof, and possibly fire-channeling. The less said about Theon at this point, the better. And Tyrion, well. At least he has Shae.

[shapinglight]

It could have been worse - I thought it was going to be - but it was still a pretty big gut-punch

What did you think would happen, if it's not too spoilery? And it is awful about Winterfell. What will happen when Robb finds out? That's his powerbase gone.

:whimpers about Sam:

I understand Sansa's lack of trust, and after Littlefinger's dealings with Ros, I don't trust him a bit. But what will happen to her now? :worries:

And Tyrion, well. At least he has Shae.

:( Poor Tyrion.

[lyr]

I was expecting that thing we call the RW to avoid spoilers. It'll have to come next season. You don't want to know yet. Just, you know, have comfort food on standby or something.

Given that poor Robb also thinks that both his little brothers were murdered by his traitorous foster brother, his sisters are both Lannister prisoners, and his mother went behind his back to release one of his worst enemies, I have to conclude that it is not a good time to be Robb. I'm sure the burning of Winterfell was just the last thing he needed. I feel pretty sorry for the poor kid, and it's no wonder to me that he was feeling lost and alone enough to break his promise to the Freys and to marry Talissa.

Sansa has an interesting story ahead of her. I have always thought that it is very important that Sansa's the one whose wolf was killed early. I think that means a lot, and has a lot to do with where her character arc goes.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Maestro Lywin! :(((
And Winterfell. :(((
So was that Bolton Bastard's doings, after all? Can't believe Theon's men did all that wreckage...
And will Winterfell be shown like Harrenhall on the map next season, dead and not moving? :(

After reading the book 2 till the end (couldn't wait and finished it after watching this episode), I'm glad they muted the whole Bolton Bastard thing. The way book 2 ends is absolutely hearbreaking, I'm still in denial. Show was gentler with us, I'd stick to the show version, thank you very much.

Why it's only the good things and people which get destroyed? Why the freaking Jeof is still around for the next season? I thought after Tommen and "crown on his head" talk, Jeof could bite it. Well, at least we got another hint with Jeof's "I'll love you till my last day". May your last day come soon, Jeoffrey!

I suspected Margeory would go for Jeoffrey, but hoped he'd bite it before that and she'd settle for Tommen. I know she can handle herself, plus Loras would kill anyone who messed with his sister, and looked the part - still, I like her and don't want her around Jeoffrey, except to poison him or something.

Oh, Loras... He had 2 seconds of screen time but made me ache for Renly, and their love, all over again. So Renly stayed true to him till the end, oh damn...

And Sansa got her little laugh and a little happy moment, bless her! Which was immediately spoiled by LF.
I think we have an open end here, whether she accepted his offer. Just like with the Hound, we won't know what she's done till next season.
I don't think she trusts LF, don't think she should, like scene with Ros and Varys has shown. But maybe LF is less devious towards Cat and her daughters? We'll see.

It was annoying that they didn't tie up any Tywin threads. Did he realized that Arya was with him, as she obviously wasn't at KL? What does he think of Tyrion's involvement in the battle? Of Jeoffrey and incest accusations? What is his next move about Robb?

He remained a cypher in the episode.
That's why I wouldn't read much into Tyrion situation vs. Tywin. It looks like Cersei is using her moment to get on top while Tyrion is sick and the dad is busy. That might change.
Meanwhile, as I thought, he's admired by the people close to him, people who fought with him and Varys.

I wonder what Tywin would do if he knew that a Kingsguard attacked his son? He seems to take any attempts on his children seriously. For Tyrion to get Tywin on his side is enough just to let this fact known, make people talk that some knight attacked him. But then Tywin could just make a show and hang a score of unrelated people, like in Harrenhall...

I was wrong predicting that the season would end with Dany and dragons. This time it ended not with fire, but with ice.
Ohhh, those three horns raised all hair on my neck, and poor Sam! Seeing his nightmares to come true! I don't know why they ignored him. Not important? Don't have time to stop for him? Whatever, I want him to live!

Qhorin wanted Jon to kill him, to gain wildlings' trust. I think Jon was aware of that, he just couldn't bring himself to do it. Qhorin tried to make it easier by insulting Jon. Jon has a very difficlut task before him. I think he's meant to unite wildlings and Northmen against WWs.

And Dany vision was beauitiful, short and to the point! Book version was much more intricate but the show said enough.

It showed what was dear to her, what she wanted most of all: Iron Throne and her family with Drogo. And then showed what's more important than that, what's much bigger and what's her tale is about: Winter and Dragons, ice and fire.

And then she again did something to make my hair stand on end. What a horrible way to execute Xaro and Doreah! She's mad Targarean all the way... Executing Doreah like that remindinded me of those tavern wenches hang for sleeping with Lannisters. Or with Odissey judgement over his servant girls in "Odissey" - horrified me at the time.

Oh, and Brienne made Jaimie respect her. And she IS taking him to KL.

OK, I'm done being unspoiled. I'm reading book 3 starting today and all other books, so I'm crossing to the other side. Just can't wait till next season.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think it's book III. There's a scene with Loras speaking of his one true love that I think you'll like.

Loras really and truly loved Renly.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Cersei was behind the attack that almost killed Tyrion. Given how Tywin regards Cersei and Tyrion - I suspect Cersei would win. Tyrion's next challenge will be to survive his recovery and his family - and you can see what they think of him by where they put him.

I do like Varys - he is so much more sympathetic in this series, and yet very true to the books.

[shapinglight]

So was that Bolton Bastard's doings, after all? Can't believe Theon's men did all that wreckage...
And will Winterfell be shown like Harrenhall on the map next season, dead and not moving? :(

I suppose it must have been the Bastard. He probably thought no one would ever know, because they're all dead. And Harrenhall! :shudder: I can't for the life of me understand why Littlefinger looked so pleased to be given that place.

The way book 2 ends is absolutely hearbreaking, I'm still in denial. Show was gentler with us, I'd stick to the show version, thank you very much.

Really? How does it differ, if it won't be too spoilery for future events to tell me? I'm probably not going to be reading the book, btw.

Why it's only the good things and people which get destroyed?

From what book readers say, this is something that happens a lot. GRRM is way worse than Joss.


and poor Sam! Seeing his nightmares to come true! I don't know why they ignored him. Not important? Don't have time to stop for him? Whatever, I want him to live!

Yes, me too. I shall be really, really upset if he's dead.

And Dany vision was beauitiful, short and to the point! Book version was much more intricate but the show said enough.

It showed what was dear to her, what she wanted most of all: Iron Throne and her family with Drogo. And then showed what's more important than that, what's much bigger and what's her tale is about: Winter and Dragons, ice and fire.

True, though of course I'm sad that what she wants doesn't feature Jorah at all (though I knew it never would :sob:)

Or with Odissey judgement over his servant girls in "Odissey" - horrified me at the time.

I don't understand the reference, but yes, Dany can be completely ruthless at times. She showed that in season 1 with Mirri Maaz Duur, and here she is again. Poor Doreah!

I hope you enjoy the books, but I think I'll stick to the show. Reading Book 1 showed me that books and show don't always complement each other that well.

[spikesjojo.livejournal.com]

Yeah - Quorin , in the book, told Jon he would have to do whatever it took to survive - meaning killing Quorin (though Jon didn't realize it until the fight).

So - no spoilers? Or shall I tell you about Sam?

To be honest, they have changed some stuff from the book - some I approve of, and some I wonder about. Seems obvious to me that Arya would have been smart enough to say "Tywin Lannister" to Jaquen if she had actually ever been in a holding with the two of them. Which is probably why it didn't happen in the books...

[shapinglight]

So - no spoilers? Or shall I tell you about Sam?

I wouldn't want anything too specific. Thumbs up he lives? Thumbs down he dies?