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shapinglightLast spammy post of the day, and yes, not really quite the right icon, but I couldn't find one of Comics!Magneto.
So, anyway, probably no one is at all interested in this except me, but...
Spoilers behind cut for the Buffy comics and for recent X-Men storylines
....there are some very ironic parallels going on between the current Marvel Comics 'Event' story - Avengers vs X-Men and Buffy season 8. Probably, all it does is go to show that there are only so many plotlines in super hero comics to go around. It also proves that fandom is the same everywhere. I spent an informative half hour on the CBR (Comic Book Resources) Forum earlier today reading the reaction to the latest (and penultimate) issue of X-Men: Legacy, which centres around the character of the X-Man Rogue. For the last year or so, Rogue has been in a romantic relationship with Magneto (yes, really), something I've wanted to see since Chris Claremont (writer of the original Dark Phoenix saga) set up the ongoing UST between them way back in the early '90s. I'm actually not that keen on Rogue (as female role models go, she's not a patch on Buffy, though of course, unlike Buffy, she was never conceived as one in the first place), but I do like Magneto very much - in a faintly guilty sort of way, until Magneto: Testament came out, after which I haven't felt guilty at all.
It was only a short while ago that I discovered how widely hated this pairing was by many X-Men comics readers. I discovered it when trawling through a Q&A on a comics forum with Christos Gage, the current writer of X-Men: Legacy (though not the writer who finally put Magneto and Rogue together for real), who just so happens to be the writer of Angel & Faith. Reading this Q&A was honestly like reading a Q&A about Spuffy which had been invaded by rabid Bangel 'shippers. Being in a relationship with Magneto was demeaning to Rogue, it was claimed - the worst thing that had ever happened to the character, etc, etc. I even saw someone on Twitter jump on Gage and say that the reason why fans don't like 'Rogneto' is 'because it puts Rogue in a relationship with her rapist', which - unless I've missed something - I don't understand at all. Magneto certainly didn't try to rape Rogue in any issues of X-Men: Legacy I've read, and I don't remember it happening previously either. But who knows? There are so many X-books it could have happened somewhere.
Anyway, getting back to the parallels thing, Rogneto=Spuffy, right? Though ironically Magneto is way more like Angel than he is like Spike - very tall, thinks he knows best, makes decisions for other people, has done lots of terrible things etc, etc - though unlike Angel, he's had extremely terrible things done to him too.
The parallels even extend to there being another major 'shipping group involved - those fans who want Rogue paired with Gambit, who - again ironically - is way more like Spike than like Angel (though really not that like Spike - Spike is a much better character).
Some of the people bashing Rogneto probably really are outraged for Rogue's sake because they think her relationship with Magneto is anti-feminist or whatever. Others are just Rogue/Gambit 'shippers hiding behind false outrage.
Same old, same old.
More parallels and some differences: unlike the Buffy/Spike break up in the Buffy comics (if you can even call it a break up, because that needs there to be two people in the relationship to start with) Gage let the Rogneto 'shippers down relatively gently. Magneto asks Rogue to marry him, she says she doesn't want to be in a relationship with anyone because she needs to find herself and work out what her place in the world is. They part with a kiss.
Spike asks Buffy to go away with him, saying he couldn't carry on being her 'dark place', and all he gets is total silence from Buffy and an expression like she's swallowed a lemon.
But there are more parallels: the other day, this article about heroes who commit mass murder was posted, featuring good old Comics!Angel as one of the main culprits, to which, when it was drawn to his attention, Christos Gage responded by saying people should think of Angel as the Cyclops of the Buffyverse, referring to the current Avengers vs X-Men storyline, in which Cyclops of the X-Men has been possessed by the Phoenix force and has done some horrible things as a consequence - the corollary of this being, no doubt, that he was possessed and it totally wasn't his fault, and what do you mean we're whitewashing the character?
Like I said, there are only so many stories to go around in comics, and only so many excuses to use to get your characters off the hook you've hung them from, and 'shippers are the same whatever fandom they belong to, and I am nuts for wasting my time and yours writing this.
Done now.
So, anyway, probably no one is at all interested in this except me, but...
Spoilers behind cut for the Buffy comics and for recent X-Men storylines
....there are some very ironic parallels going on between the current Marvel Comics 'Event' story - Avengers vs X-Men and Buffy season 8. Probably, all it does is go to show that there are only so many plotlines in super hero comics to go around. It also proves that fandom is the same everywhere. I spent an informative half hour on the CBR (Comic Book Resources) Forum earlier today reading the reaction to the latest (and penultimate) issue of X-Men: Legacy, which centres around the character of the X-Man Rogue. For the last year or so, Rogue has been in a romantic relationship with Magneto (yes, really), something I've wanted to see since Chris Claremont (writer of the original Dark Phoenix saga) set up the ongoing UST between them way back in the early '90s. I'm actually not that keen on Rogue (as female role models go, she's not a patch on Buffy, though of course, unlike Buffy, she was never conceived as one in the first place), but I do like Magneto very much - in a faintly guilty sort of way, until Magneto: Testament came out, after which I haven't felt guilty at all.
It was only a short while ago that I discovered how widely hated this pairing was by many X-Men comics readers. I discovered it when trawling through a Q&A on a comics forum with Christos Gage, the current writer of X-Men: Legacy (though not the writer who finally put Magneto and Rogue together for real), who just so happens to be the writer of Angel & Faith. Reading this Q&A was honestly like reading a Q&A about Spuffy which had been invaded by rabid Bangel 'shippers. Being in a relationship with Magneto was demeaning to Rogue, it was claimed - the worst thing that had ever happened to the character, etc, etc. I even saw someone on Twitter jump on Gage and say that the reason why fans don't like 'Rogneto' is 'because it puts Rogue in a relationship with her rapist', which - unless I've missed something - I don't understand at all. Magneto certainly didn't try to rape Rogue in any issues of X-Men: Legacy I've read, and I don't remember it happening previously either. But who knows? There are so many X-books it could have happened somewhere.
Anyway, getting back to the parallels thing, Rogneto=Spuffy, right? Though ironically Magneto is way more like Angel than he is like Spike - very tall, thinks he knows best, makes decisions for other people, has done lots of terrible things etc, etc - though unlike Angel, he's had extremely terrible things done to him too.
The parallels even extend to there being another major 'shipping group involved - those fans who want Rogue paired with Gambit, who - again ironically - is way more like Spike than like Angel (though really not that like Spike - Spike is a much better character).
Some of the people bashing Rogneto probably really are outraged for Rogue's sake because they think her relationship with Magneto is anti-feminist or whatever. Others are just Rogue/Gambit 'shippers hiding behind false outrage.
Same old, same old.
More parallels and some differences: unlike the Buffy/Spike break up in the Buffy comics (if you can even call it a break up, because that needs there to be two people in the relationship to start with) Gage let the Rogneto 'shippers down relatively gently. Magneto asks Rogue to marry him, she says she doesn't want to be in a relationship with anyone because she needs to find herself and work out what her place in the world is. They part with a kiss.
Spike asks Buffy to go away with him, saying he couldn't carry on being her 'dark place', and all he gets is total silence from Buffy and an expression like she's swallowed a lemon.
But there are more parallels: the other day, this article about heroes who commit mass murder was posted, featuring good old Comics!Angel as one of the main culprits, to which, when it was drawn to his attention, Christos Gage responded by saying people should think of Angel as the Cyclops of the Buffyverse, referring to the current Avengers vs X-Men storyline, in which Cyclops of the X-Men has been possessed by the Phoenix force and has done some horrible things as a consequence - the corollary of this being, no doubt, that he was possessed and it totally wasn't his fault, and what do you mean we're whitewashing the character?
Like I said, there are only so many stories to go around in comics, and only so many excuses to use to get your characters off the hook you've hung them from, and 'shippers are the same whatever fandom they belong to, and I am nuts for wasting my time and yours writing this.
Done now.
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no subject
Date: 2012-09-28 09:20 pm (UTC)But, I mean, what about Joss fucking Whedon? And Jane Espenson? What about these people who actually were in the series and also are in the comics now. What the hell they are doing with OUR ships?!
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Date: 2012-09-28 09:46 pm (UTC)What the hell they are doing with OUR ships?!
My opinion on that is...Joss is giving fans what he thinks they want. That's what I take from his comments. It's also always a huge mistake.
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Date: 2012-09-30 11:27 am (UTC)And another parallel - there were plenty of people on that CBR forum saying pretty much the same thing about various X-Men writers. I even saw one poster saying that as far as they were concerned, X-Men: Legacy - the X-book where Magneto and Rogue have been a couple - isn't canon.
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Date: 2012-09-30 11:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 12:12 pm (UTC)I agree that BtVS was a coherent,finished story. A pity Joss didn't just leave it that way.
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Date: 2012-09-30 12:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 12:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 12:46 pm (UTC)(Your Fassy's icon is lovely!)
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Date: 2012-10-01 02:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 05:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 09:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 09:33 am (UTC)Mystique is so cool I can't even!
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Date: 2012-09-28 09:55 pm (UTC)I think they'd improve their story 5x if they just dropped the BS and say he was possessed from the beginning. Yeah, it would be a retcon and a whitewash but since it never made a lick of sense to begin with, I can't think of another way to put it behind them. They can have all the maudlin Willow scenes they want, it doesn't change much of anything.
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Date: 2012-09-30 11:31 am (UTC)And I'm sure everyone in the X-verse will have forgiven Cyclops pretty quick, if only because the story couldn't carry on if they didn't.
I could be wrong, though. I haven't kept up with X-spoilers or news, and Marvel are about to cancel a load of books, reset issue numbers to 1 etc, etc. And one of the things I know they're doing is brining the original team of X-Men forward from the past, so there'll be two Cyclopses. Maybe the Phoenix-infected Cyclops is going to die.
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Date: 2012-09-28 10:27 pm (UTC)Christos Gage responded by saying people should think of Angel as the Cyclops of the Buffyverse, referring to the current Avengers vs X-Men storyline, in which Cyclops of the X-Men has been possessed by the Phoenix force and has done some horrible things as a consequence - the corollary of this being, no doubt, that he was possessed and it totally wasn't his fault, and what do you mean we're whitewashing the character?
Oh for Pete's sake, really? /headdesks
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Date: 2012-09-30 11:43 am (UTC)Oh Lordy, where to start! There's just so much of it, and though it started off relatively simple, with one book, Uncanny X-Men, nowadays it's a many limbed hydra with so many limbs/characters it's almost impossible to keep track of - which is why I can't say definitively that Magneto has never tried to or actually has raped Rogue in some book somewhere, though I do think it unlikely as the X-books aren't adult material.
Anyway, you could do worse than start with the famous Dark Phoenix saga. It's a very old story, of course (1980s) and the characters are very much of their time, but it's such a seminal super-hero comics story that it's worth reading. You'll soon discover that the Willow/Xander scene at the end of BtVS season 6 has antecedents going way back. ;)
As a big Magneto fan, I'd highly recommend Magneto: Testament, but I think it probably packed more punch for me because I'm a long time fan of the character and am aware of how his history has been gradually revealed in the books, so in awe of how the story has managed to take all those brief mentions and hints and make something so coherent out of it. There's also an old X-Men story called God Loves, Man Kills, which kind of sums up the whole X-Men ethos and what's been the longest running theme in the books.
More recently, I thought House of M was a pretty good story and it features Avengers characters too. Then there's my all time favourite, Age of Apocalypse, which was one of the first X-Men 'event' stories, featuring an nightmarish AU X-verse.
All these are pretty Magneto-heavy. There's lots of other stuff too, though, and though I wasn't keen on it, lots of people enjoyed Joss Whedon's run on Astonishing X-Men. He did do some stuff I really enjoyed, including making Cyclops and the White Queen, Emma Frost, a couple. I fear this is one of the developments that's going to go down in flames at the end of the Avegers vs X-Men story. :(
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Date: 2012-09-29 01:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 11:50 am (UTC)Good point. I was, in fact, fairly convinced that I was the only person on earth who liked Rogneto and therefore was pleasantly surprised to discover there are a few others, even if they were pretty much drowned in the sea of outrage/disapproval.
I've found Christos Gage often makes the sense that doesn't when defending Angel.
I do sometimes wonder if he's actually read season 8 at all. Should say, though, that when he said this person should think of Angel in the comics as the Buffyverse version of Phoenix Five Cyclops, he may have meant more in the sense that they both had good intentions to start with rather than that they were both possessed all the time.
Full disclosure and all that.
:)
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Date: 2012-09-29 03:16 am (UTC)Wait. When I first read this, I thought, no, no, he was possessed by Apoclaspe and did terrible things...until the Jean was able to help him get rid of the evil entity. But no, that was in the late 1990s. So clearly same story, just new version?
So they did the Phoenix possession story AGAIN? Except with Cyclops, not Jean? Let's see Jean has been made to do terrible, horrible things by the phoenix force at least twice now, maybe it was three times..one loses count.
And in the late 90s...A dark force from Magneto possessed Professor Xavier turning him into the evil Onslaught who killed all of earth's heroes, who of course weren't really killed but sent to an alternate reality - from which they eventually returned. (That was actually a really good story, until they gave the explanation that Xavier was possessed by the evil ego of Magnet.
It was far more interesting when it was just Xavier. And when they didn't feel the need to suddenly let him off the hook.)
This story has been done to death. Which is why I really loved what Bill Willingham said about it - the guy is a jerk, but he completely nailed the problematic nature of this writer loophole in superhero comics and why it simply does not work any longer and makes the writers look like nitwits:
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/bill-willingham-justice-society-exit-110216.html
And then comes along this crossover in which the whole plot revolves around just about every member of the JSA turning evil for a couple of issues.
I couldn’t bring myself to do that because, you know, one time something takes control of you and you accidentally turn evil but it’s not your fault? That can be understood. Maybe the second time something takes possession of you and you turn evil, maybe that can be forgiven as well. But by about the third or fourth time that something takes over this person and he becomes evil, you have to ask yourself, like, well, maybe there’s just something wrong with this fellow from the beginning. Maybe he is just evil. Maybe that’s what evil is, is people that are just accessible to being taken over by whatever cosmic hobo happens to be passing through today.
And I’m just tired to death of those storylines, and I never wanted to do another one of them. Dark Phoenix, dark this, Dark Green Lantern who destroys an entire town on a tantrum one day, and now he’s a good guy again, and Dark Obsidian, which I guess is a redundancy.
It was fine the first time they did it. But now, I'm sorry Chris Gage and Joss Whedon, it's a cliche. You can't do it any more.
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Date: 2012-09-29 06:44 pm (UTC)You can't do it any more.
I wonder if it wasn't originally intended to be another of those mocking comic cliches when they thought of it. They never thought of a way out of it because at the end everyone was supposed to say "Well, it's a comic cliche, LOL" and that would be the end of it. No questions, no real consequences. Everyone has a laugh, back to your regularly scheduled stuff.
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Date: 2012-09-30 01:15 am (UTC)I can't really say I've really loved anything Whedon's done since Buffy. Maybe I'm more of a Buffy fan than a Whedon fan?
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Date: 2012-09-30 12:07 pm (UTC)They probably thought Whedon invented the 'female develops super powers she can't handle, almost destroys the world and has to be talked down by a loved one' - as seen at the end of season 6 - too.
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Date: 2012-09-30 02:40 pm (UTC)ETA: And you know, it's not like Whedon hasn't written a semi-decent Angel comic. That revamped Series Two that was supposed to make it more comic-booky actually wasn't half bad.
I don't know, I definitely think there's a bit of resentment on his part at the series and actors themselves. Also quite a bit of ego. I much prefer Vince Gilligan's stance on TV shows, that they're a group effort right down to the focus-puller.
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Date: 2012-10-01 02:37 pm (UTC)I guess it's one of those things we'll never know for sure, but yes, the show was way more of a collaborative effort, that's certain.
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Date: 2012-09-30 12:01 pm (UTC)no, no, he was possessed by Apoclaspe and did terrible things...until the Jean was able to help him get rid of the evil entity. But no, that was in the late 1990s. So clearly same story, just new version?
I don't remember a Cyclops-possessed-by-Apocalypse story, but the late 90s was when I stopped reading the X-books (like you, because of BtVS) so I may well have missed it. I don't know how this current possession storyline will play out as it's not quite over yet (the final part of the story comes out next week).
So they did the Phoenix possession story AGAIN? Except with Cyclops, not Jean? Let's see Jean has been made to do terrible, horrible things by the phoenix force at least twice now, maybe it was three times..one loses count.
I've lost count too. Jean is currently dead again as well, which is how many times now? But she'll be back soon. Marvel's latest 'bright' idea is to do a book featuring the original X-Men coming forward from the past and not liking what they find today. They're also cancelling a lot of books and starting some again from 1, and there's to be a title called Uncanny Avengers, featuring a team composed of Avengers and X-Men, one of whom will be Rogue. No idea where Magneto will end up, but since the Scarlet Witch (who seems very hated in the fandom for some reason - I saw loads of people on the CBR forum saying how much they hated her) is also an Uncanny Avenger I daresay Magneto will show up at some point. There'll be a big fight. He'll go evil again. That's what I'm expecting anyway.
Xavier is currently dead too, btw. But I'm sure he'll be along again soon. All these stories seem to be written now with the expectation that there's a quick turnaround of readership so characters don't have to stay dead for long. It all feels very bitty.
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Date: 2012-09-30 01:31 pm (UTC)You should count Angelus. Because that's how they excused Angel's actions in S3, in Angel S1 - Bliss, and in Angel S4 - Souless.
It's also what they did with Cordelia. Cordy always turns evil when she gets knocked up. While Darla turned good just because she was knocked up.
Willow - got possessed by the evil magic and its why she turned evil, it wasn't JUST Willow. They sort of white-wash it a bit. Granted not as much as Angel or Cordy.
Whedon in short takes a lot comic book short-cuts towards redemption. The only characters that had a somewhat realistic redemption arcs were Faith, Andrew, Anya and Spike - but that's because they took "full" responsibility for their past actions (ignoring the trigger episode with Spike - which wasn't the same and Spike took responsibility for, actually). Angel, Cordelia, Willow - don't really. Although Willow does more than the other two.
It's the reason that I find it difficult to "care" that much about Angel or Cordy. I don't hate them. But I can't love them either.
They both felt a bit flat because the writer's took the short-cut.
Shame, because both characters have so much potential, but the writer wasn't up to the task. It's a failing of comic book and pulp writers unfortunately...they have to pander a bit to their fan base and have to crank out stories very quickly. So their stories suffer as a result.
I don't remember a Cyclops-possessed-by-Apocalypse story, but the late 90s was when I stopped reading the X-books (like you, because of BtVS) so I may well have missed it.
It took place right before Grant Morrison took over the comics in early 2000-2004. Jean Grey was still alive during this period.
Scott and Jean were still married and happy. They weren't part of the team. Apocalypse kidnapped the X-Man (the kid from Ages of Apocalypse who had crossed over) and was going to merge with him.
But Cyclops sacrificed himself to merge with Apocalypse instead, knowing he'd have more strength to contain him. Instead he became a sort of contained Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde (aka Angel), until Jean and Cable found him and saved him. It was a lot like the Angel storyline, now that I think about it.
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Date: 2012-10-01 02:41 pm (UTC)This is true. It does irritate me how he gets that get-out-of-jail card and Spike doesn't. It's not actually that I want Spike to get it. I just want a level playing field.
I know Joss loved Grant Morrison's run on the X-Men. I like some stuff by Grant Morrison myself (The Invisibles, for instance), but I've never bothered to catch up with it. By the time I jumped back into the story, Uncanny X-Men was being written by someone called Matt Fraction, who I actually thought was excellent. A pity he left.
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Date: 2012-10-01 09:42 pm (UTC)Was not a fan of Grant Morrison. His first arc was interesting, then he felt the need to repeat the Phoenix storyline, this round with Wolverine as the hero involved. And well...it didn't play. Wolvie is one of those characters that gets over-used.
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Date: 2012-10-03 09:18 am (UTC)I saw someone on Buffyforums say that Spike is like Wolverine, which is very unfair. Spike was never over used. It's just that the people who didn't like him hated him so much that one scene per episode was too much for them.
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Date: 2012-10-03 09:34 pm (UTC)Yep, had similar discussions with various people online and off over the years.
In some respects yes, but I agree with you - he wasn't over-used (except possibly in the 7th Season, where I'm not entirely sure Whedon knew what to do with him and that's not quite the same thing as over-use. There's a difference between a writer not knowing what to do with a character and character over-use. Although I admittedly preferred Spike's arc and thought Xander had long passed his expiration date. And I happen to like Xander.) A similar problem is occurring on The Good Wife with Kalinda (in the current season). Not sure the writers know what to do with her either. Omar was like that in The Wire. They said in the commentary that less is more with characters like Omar. If you give the audience too much, they get bored. It's true - think about Angel, if any character was the Wolverine of the Buffyverse it may well have been Angel. Not that they are anything like personality wise, but they do have a lot of similarities. Retconned pasts, way older than romantic interests, old men that like 12 year olds, and both have a mean streak and worry about the beast inside them. The biggest similarity however is overuse. Angel's been in one too many comics, his series focused on him and his backstory...
If any character was overused in the Buffy world it was probably Angel - who was a bit one-note to start with. But that's just me.
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Date: 2012-10-04 12:52 pm (UTC)I'm sorry if that's happened to Kalinda, though. They had no trouble integrating her into the story in seasons 1&2 (well, I'm only half way through season 2, but certainly no trouble so far as I've got).
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Date: 2012-10-04 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-05 08:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-05 02:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 07:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-29 03:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 12:03 pm (UTC)I should stick to that if I were you. I keep telling myself I have to stop reading them, but then I get sucked back in.
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Date: 2012-09-30 12:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-09-30 12:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-01 12:48 pm (UTC)IMO, it's more a problem with having a continuing story, one without a proper ending but rather just continuing on and on, trying to keep the fans interested but never shaking it up too much for fear of losing their interest.
So... Angel / Cyclops / Green Lantern goes bad and does bad stuff! But wait, it's not really our hero's fault, since everyone knows Angel / Cyclops / Green Lantern is a HERO!
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Date: 2012-10-01 02:44 pm (UTC)This is certainly true of the X-Men. It does get wearisome for long time fans like myself, who've seen pretty much every permutation going at least twice.
I did think the Buffy comics would avoid that, though, because for some reason I assumed there would be a time limit on them. But now they're talking about season 10.
Basically, it could go on forever, just like the X-Men. ;)
Spike's turn to be villain next, I suppose.