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shapinglightFurther to my comics post of the other day. I promise I’ll stop after this. I know very few people on my flist are interested.
So, because I was bored yesterday, I went back to the CBR forum, and boy, do they have a lot of posts on that site (note to self: do NOT get sucked into posting there). I couldn’t even find the thread I was looking at the other day (the ‘the end of Rogneto’ one), but did find several others that were Magneto-related and therefore interesting to me. One wanted people to vote as to who Magneto should shack up with next (Namor the Submariner was winning last time I looked – not really a serious suggestion initially, I think, but the slashers jumped on it with glee), and there was one thread asking whether it was time to kill Magneto off for good, the way Professor X has been killed off in this Avengers vs X-Men story (which, of course, made me laugh cynically, because I can’t remember how many times both characters have been killed off in the past and, like Dracula, they always come back).
I also learned some stuff I didn't know before while lurking there– like that Rogue/Gambit ‘shippers are called Romy ‘shippers (Gambit’s first name is Remy) and that though – as previously mentioned – Magneto is way more like Angel as a character than he is like Spike – the Romy ‘shippers sound exactly like Bangel ‘shippers at their most self-righteous, while the Rogneto ‘shippers (well, the one I saw, they're few and far between) insist Magneto is redeemed already and was never that bad to start with anyway.
Swap the names, and it could almost have been an argument taking place right now somewhere in the Buffy fandom (probably on Tumblr).
One big difference, though: most people – ‘shippers and non-'shippers alike – seem to agree that Rogue herself is a bit of a Mary Sue.
This, I have to agree with too. It probably says a lot about super hero comics that Marvel have been unable to make Rogue the main character in one of their books without Mary Sue-ing her. Back in the 90s, I used to quite enjoy the character, but now…
She’s omni-competent, always right and always wins out in the end. It’s dull, dull, dull!
In a recent X-Men Legacy storyline, for instance (written by Christos Gage, who has Mary Sue’d Rogue so badly he’s made her pretty much a joke), she gets thrown into another dimension where two alien races have been fighting a war for centuries. She solves their disagreements lickety-split and by the time she leaves they’re practically begging her to stay and be theircolonial mistress queen. Yeurch!
Boy, she’s a drag. In fact, the only reason I can see for either ‘shipper group to ‘ship her with their guy is because they love him so much they want him to get what he wants. I can’t believe any of them actually like her any more.
All I can say is, thank goodness Buffy isn’t like that. Not even Comics!Buffy.
On the other hand, I do wish Joss had made Comics!Buffy not-omnicompetent in a different way to the one he chose. Okay, so she doesn’t have to be a great general (I rather liked General Buffy, but I know lots of people didn’t), but did she have to be as useless/clueless as she was?
Oh, I dunno. I think what I’m basically trying to say is that mainstream comics don’t write strong female characters well. They either have to tear them down the way Comics!Buffy has been, or they turn them into Mary Sues.
Or something.
So, because I was bored yesterday, I went back to the CBR forum, and boy, do they have a lot of posts on that site (note to self: do NOT get sucked into posting there). I couldn’t even find the thread I was looking at the other day (the ‘the end of Rogneto’ one), but did find several others that were Magneto-related and therefore interesting to me. One wanted people to vote as to who Magneto should shack up with next (Namor the Submariner was winning last time I looked – not really a serious suggestion initially, I think, but the slashers jumped on it with glee), and there was one thread asking whether it was time to kill Magneto off for good, the way Professor X has been killed off in this Avengers vs X-Men story (which, of course, made me laugh cynically, because I can’t remember how many times both characters have been killed off in the past and, like Dracula, they always come back).
I also learned some stuff I didn't know before while lurking there– like that Rogue/Gambit ‘shippers are called Romy ‘shippers (Gambit’s first name is Remy) and that though – as previously mentioned – Magneto is way more like Angel as a character than he is like Spike – the Romy ‘shippers sound exactly like Bangel ‘shippers at their most self-righteous, while the Rogneto ‘shippers (well, the one I saw, they're few and far between) insist Magneto is redeemed already and was never that bad to start with anyway.
Swap the names, and it could almost have been an argument taking place right now somewhere in the Buffy fandom (probably on Tumblr).
One big difference, though: most people – ‘shippers and non-'shippers alike – seem to agree that Rogue herself is a bit of a Mary Sue.
This, I have to agree with too. It probably says a lot about super hero comics that Marvel have been unable to make Rogue the main character in one of their books without Mary Sue-ing her. Back in the 90s, I used to quite enjoy the character, but now…
She’s omni-competent, always right and always wins out in the end. It’s dull, dull, dull!
In a recent X-Men Legacy storyline, for instance (written by Christos Gage, who has Mary Sue’d Rogue so badly he’s made her pretty much a joke), she gets thrown into another dimension where two alien races have been fighting a war for centuries. She solves their disagreements lickety-split and by the time she leaves they’re practically begging her to stay and be their
Boy, she’s a drag. In fact, the only reason I can see for either ‘shipper group to ‘ship her with their guy is because they love him so much they want him to get what he wants. I can’t believe any of them actually like her any more.
All I can say is, thank goodness Buffy isn’t like that. Not even Comics!Buffy.
On the other hand, I do wish Joss had made Comics!Buffy not-omnicompetent in a different way to the one he chose. Okay, so she doesn’t have to be a great general (I rather liked General Buffy, but I know lots of people didn’t), but did she have to be as useless/clueless as she was?
Oh, I dunno. I think what I’m basically trying to say is that mainstream comics don’t write strong female characters well. They either have to tear them down the way Comics!Buffy has been, or they turn them into Mary Sues.
Or something.
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no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 06:10 pm (UTC)Oh you do surprise me. *g*
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Date: 2012-10-02 06:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 06:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-05 03:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-02-05 05:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 07:49 pm (UTC)In fact, the only reason I can see for either ‘shipper group to ‘ship her with their guy is because they love him so much they want him to get what he wants.
That's been true of Bangels/Banders/Spuffies for years.
I think guy writers have a tendency to create female characters as points of either worship or resentment.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:32 pm (UTC)Certainly of some of them, though I think there are big subsets of Bangels and Spuffies (not Banders, I don't think) whose primary focus is Buffy and who see Angel or Spike as pretty much her handbag, which is a change from how these things usually work, I suppose.
I think guy writers have a tendency to create female characters as points of either worship or resentment.
Or sometimes both. I don't know if it was Chris Claremont of Dark Phoenix fame who began the whole Woman Gets Uber-Powerful, Can't Handle It And Goes Nuts, Then Has To Be Talked Down By Some Guy trope, but even if it wasn't, that has to be the prime example and suggests some odd thinking about women.
Though I would say that in his earlier work, he's less guilty than most. I enjoyed the way he wrote Rogue.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-02 08:44 pm (UTC)Oh, it's certainly not true in all cases, but a majority of what I've seen? Do seem to trend along those lines. Like the not-quite-so recent outrage over the Spacefrak. Lots of people were offended and pissed until they managed to convince themselves it was a subversion (still waiting for confirmation there, but anyway), then it was alright. As if even if it was a subversion, it's somehow trashing the characters less. Whole thing stunk of sublimation.
Or sometimes both.
Or both, yeah.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 09:07 am (UTC)I agree. Besides, there will never, ever, ever be any clarification as to whether it was a subversion or not. It's possible Whedon meant it as one (I disagree with those who say Buffy's speech in the issue Joss wrote, where she witters on about her weirdest, bestest day, was Joss deliberately writing her OOC. He's put stupid speeches in her mouth many times) but that Brad Meltzer didn't get the message.
I'm sure Meltzer meant it perfectly seriously. He seems to love all this sub-Da Vinci Code prophecy destined from the dawn of time crap. Of course, his message was seriously undercut by the horrible art that made the spacefrak not erotic but unintentionally hilarious, but still....
Or both, yeah.
Should have said, re: Claremont, I really enjoyed the way he wrote Storm when she'd mohawked her hair and lost her super powers. She was great.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-03 09:18 pm (UTC)I think maybe it was deliberately OOC, but I think she was OOC for the run of the comics. But yeah, in the end it doesn't matter. Unless there is some in-story confirmation about it, it doesn't make a difference. They're not gonna explain it any more than they're going to explain the glow. Going there ends B/A and the fact that they refuse to go there just confirms it to my mind that it was no intended subversion and B/A is by no means dead.
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Date: 2012-10-04 12:53 pm (UTC)I'm not entirely sure I agree with that, because I don't know if they 'get' that it ends BA. But that they never meant the pairing to be 'over'? That I agree with.
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Date: 2012-10-04 01:37 pm (UTC)I think they get it, they just don't agree with it. I think the reaction to S8 threw them off kilter, especially when the R word kept coming up.
Meh. It's all going to reset anyway. I read Fray and the future arc of 8 last night. There's no way to tie them together with any sense (not that sense is needed, I suppose) without one.
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Date: 2012-10-08 06:32 pm (UTC)You could well be right. If that happens, though, it'll be yet further evidence of how much BtVS doesn't work as a conventional super hero comic. That's such a cliche in super hero comics, as I'm sure you know.
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Date: 2012-10-08 07:05 pm (UTC)Oh, I know it's a cliche, but that just makes it all the more likely. The BTVS comics are all about embracing cliches.
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Date: 2012-10-08 08:06 pm (UTC)I saw Tom Brevoort, the current editor in chief of Marvel Comics, saying something disparaging about X-Men fans who won't let go of characters' past misdemeanours.
Nothing is new in comics.
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Date: 2012-10-08 08:10 pm (UTC)They don't seem to think their actions and words should count so I guess it fits they don't think their "heroes" actions shouldn't count for anything either.
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Date: 2012-10-09 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-10-04 12:53 pm (UTC)Just YES to this - and a big reason as to why comics in general don't interest me (although when it comes to reading I'm more word-oriented anyway). I suppose having more women in the industry would help but - perhaps not? women can be just as clueless as men when it comes to writing strong women. (Actually, it's women fanfic writers who invented "Mary Sue", right?)
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Date: 2012-10-04 12:55 pm (UTC)I don't know if this is true, but since the majority of fanfic is written by women, it could well be. On the other hand, that makes it more likely that was also a woman who recognised the problem. :)
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Date: 2012-10-04 01:31 pm (UTC)On the other hand, it's also true that male characters are rarely critiqued in the same way - when a lot of of culture is based on the "Gary Stu" especially in action and genre movies (the perfect hero, or the anti-hero who always gets the job done with a smirk, etc.) A lot of movies etc are fantasies for the men who write and direct them, but that's rarely said and if it is, one gets shouted down.
no subject
Date: 2012-10-08 06:34 pm (UTC)