Writing Post

[shapinglight]

I'm still finding the idea of talking about my own fics slightly uncomfortable, because it feels like I'm claiming they have some sort of merit (this is why I never do any of those memes, where you invite people to ask you questions about your work), but here goes.



I've been putting more of my fics on AO3. Still getting a fair number of hits, though not much in the way of comments or kudos (but then they're not new works, most people will have read them before, besides I have no idea how common receiving either is on the site). I've now got to the stage where I've put up most of my most recent stories, except the very long ones that need to be divided into chapters, and am beginning to contemplate putting up older works.

So, anyway, this story, Brief Encounter, is up next. However, though I was very pleased with it at the time I wrote it, it now reads to me like a decent story trapped inside a lot of unnecessary waffle (so much so, that I don't want anyone to read it and was very reluctant to link to it, but it seems silly not to when I'm asking for opinions), so I think I'm going to edit it quite considerably.

Then again, that seems a bit like cheating.

Then again, again, there is all that waffle. It needs to go. Also, I think I need to make it clearer why Darla decides she wants to have sex with Spike, because at the moment it just reads to me that she does it because people just do have sex in fanfics.

What do you all think? Should I let the story stand, or should I make it as good as I think it can be now I know better? I should just say, that if I decide it's cheating to edit, I shan't put the story on AO3 at all, because I don't think it's good enough.

Opinions gratefully received. Also, Brief Encounter isn't the only story like this. There are several.

Comments

[elisi]

I'd say edit it, but put an author's note on AO3 to explain what you've done and why. Just something simple will do, but it'll be a heads-up to people.

Mostly I'd say to definitely edit it!

[shapinglight]

I probably am going to. I've already slightly edited a couple of things (mostly to get rid of the word 'however', with which my earlier fics are infested), and I've put a note in the header to say I've done so.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

Rewrite it. As long as you're sure it really will be an improvement (not like George Lucas going back to Star Wars, tampering with it, and ruining it in the process).

[shapinglight]

Well, if the worst came to the worst, I'd still have the original here on LJ. I'm fairly sure I can make it better.

[rahirah]

As far as I can tell, if you're posting stories in one of the big hot new fandoms like Avengers, you can rack up thousands of comments on AO3. If you're posting for an older/less popular fandom, it's crickets (and you're way more likely to get kudos than comments if you get anything.) So pretty much like everywhere else. *g*

What if you edit it to your liking, and post both versions - sort of a before and after thing? With a note explaining why you made the changes you did? I always find it fascinating to see how and why people edit. (But if it's a one or the other thing, definitely edit it if you want to.)

[shapinglight]

If you're posting for an older/less popular fandom, it's crickets (and you're way more likely to get kudos than comments if you get anything.) So pretty much like everywhere else. *g*

Yep. Pretty much what I thought really. It's actually more interesting to see which stories get the most hits (which I assume they're getting because of what people search for). So far, a Spangel fic from 2008 is winning, with a Fanged Four Fic from 2007 close behind.

I don't think I'll post both versions. I'll definitely put a note to say I've edited, though, and perhaps include a line about anyone who wants to read the original version can do so on LJ.

[ex_peasant441]

I'd make it a question of how you reckon your time can best be spent. You have limited time for writing. Would you rather spend that on re-writing an old work or on writing something new? Now it is perfectly possible that you would find editing the old story relaxing and easier than new writing, in which case by all means go for it.

But, speaking from bitter experience, it is practically impossible to make an old story good enough and the process is not simple. Your writing will have evolved so much since you wrote Brief Encounter. Yes, that means you can now see new flaws, but that does not mean it will be easy to fix them. They may be more structurally integral than they seem and trying to rewrite may turn into a monster of a task. And in the process you might well kill so much of the freshness and flow of the original that it makes matters worse, not better. Go read the introduction to The Carpet People for an example of Terry Pratchett struggling with the problem. So whatever you do don't spend time and emotional energy on trying to perfect old stuff unless you are really sure that is what you most want to be writing.

Also, I agree with elisi, if you do put up an edited version you should include a warning.

[shapinglight]

You have limited time for writing. Would you rather spend that on re-writing an old work or on writing something new? Now it is perfectly possible that you would find editing the old story relaxing and easier than new writing, in which case by all means go for it.

Well, since I seem to be blocked again, it's a way to make myself feel a bit creative in the meantime.

I re-read the story before making this post and I think most of the flaws will be relatively easy to fix. Mostly, they consist of some tidying up and removal of short paragraphs of unnecessary waffle, as I said. The main problem is the sex part, but really, if I can't see a very simple way to improve that I'll leave it as it is.

Also, this isn't something I'll be doing for all my old stories, because I don't plan to post most of them on Ao3. It's just a select few that I think are worth revising to bring them up to scratch. Brief Encounter is one. Vampire Winter and Family Reunion are others. But I don't intend to make major changes in any of them.

[ex_peasant441]

Sounds like you very much want to do this then!

Do save the old version first though, so you can check back when you are in the throws of revision and have a baseline in case you start to lose the freshness.

[shapinglight]

I'll definitely do that. I'll make a copy of it and work on that and leave the original well alone.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

I've recently edited a couple of my earlier stories and I feel that I've improved them. (I've also made new and very much improved banners for them). My Legolas/Eowyn stories form one long saga, which means that any new readers really have to start at the beginning, and I feel I owe them something better than my earliest efforts.

I don't feel that editing an earlier work is a waste of time because if you were writing a novel, say, you'd probably end up writing it more than once, so editing and revising are important skills. And although people talk about the risk of over-working a story and losing its freshness, I'm not convinced that that really happens, but if it does, you need to learn to stop it happening!

I love rahirah's idea of posting both versions. Like her, I think it would be fascinating to see the changes you'd made.

[shapinglight]

I don't feel that editing an earlier work is a waste of time because if you were writing a novel, say, you'd probably end up writing it more than once, so editing and revising are important skills. And although people talk about the risk of over-working a story and losing its freshness, I'm not convinced that that really happens, but if it does, you need to learn to stop it happening!

I do edit a lot anyway, so I know that can sort of happen, in the sense that you can go over something so many times you get sick of it, and also are no longer able to tell whether it's any good. That happens to me all the time these days. I posted a story called Conversation With a Vampire for a ficathon back in December. I was absolutely convinced it was dreadful. A couple of weeks later, I went back and read it again, and this time I thought it wasn't so bad after all.

This would be the first time I've attempted substantial revision on an old story, but I think I'm probably distanced enough from it now for what happened to me in December not to happen this time.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

I do edit a lot anyway, so I know that can sort of happen, in the sense that you can go over something so many times you get sick of it, and also are no longer able to tell whether it's any good.

Yes, that's exactly what happens to me! I'll draft something & be really pleased with it, then I'll realise it's crap, work and work and work on it until I'm happy with it, post it, then read it and think it's crap again. But I'm trying to learn to recognise my better judgement, and trust it, because this also happens all the time:

A couple of weeks later, I went back and read it again, and this time I thought it wasn't so bad after all.

:-)

Do you use a beta, btw? If so, how does that affect your editing/decision to post?

[I'm actually becoming more and more convinced that most readers aren't really concerned with quality. I think they rate a story according to
1 the pairing (with slash generally being more popular than het)
2 the idea (not the plot, but the idea explored in the plot)
3 the access it provides to the characters' thoughts and feelings (and most readers seem to like the writer to tell (not show) them in close third person...]

[shapinglight]

But I'm trying to learn to recognise my better judgement, and trust it, because this also happens all the time:

At the moment, I see to be going through a phase where I don't really have a better judgement. :( And in answer to your question, yes I do have a beta. Usuall, it's dwyld, though hello_spikey has also helped me out a lot. I rely quite heavily on dwyld's judgement, in fact. She's very good and working out what's wrong with something you've written and suggesting ways of making it better.

Re: Your list of how people judge stories - yes, I think that's probably true, but re: your no 4) I find telling rather than showing so boring when I read it in other people's stories it's more or less guaranteed to make me stop reading. I can't understand the attraction.

[ningloreth.livejournal.com]

Re: Your list of how people judge stories - yes, I think that's probably true, but re: your no 4) I find telling rather than showing so boring when I read it in other people's stories it's more or less guaranteed to make me stop reading. I can't understand the attraction.

No, I can't either, but I'm convinced that a lot of readers either don't notice it's boring or actually prefer it. And I'm doubly convinced that a lot of readers don't recognise a skilfully constructed bit of 'showing' -- they just think it's lacking the details they want 'said'. Maybe because they're skimming?

(I have nothing against 'telling', but I think it's hard to do it well, especially for readers who've grown up with the pacing of TV/film).

[shapinglight]

(I have nothing against 'telling', but I think it's hard to do it well, especially for readers who've grown up with the pacing of TV/film).

Very true. Long pieces of exposition never work well on TV. Poor old Giles always got stuck with them on BtVS.

[lynnalso.livejournal.com]

"access denied" Was that your intent?

[shapinglight]

Sorry. No. I'd just forgotten I'd flocked it. I've unflocked it now if you wanted to take a look.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I go through this all the time when putting stories up someplace new. I dither about how much tweaking is 'cheating" and how much is just cleaning up old stories. I've decided I'm okay with a pretty substantial amount of tweaking on AO3 because chances are I've already done a lot of work on them on my copies and the better versions are probably on my website. And I'm finding AO3 is in some ways a new audience, and I want them to like what they see. If I think a story is so bad that I can't make it something I'm okay with without doing a major rewrite, I don't put it up. If and when I ever do have one that I want to use after doing a lot of rewriting, I'll probably just say so in the author's notes: "This fic has been extensively reworked and may be quite different from versions you have seen elsewhere." Or something like that.

Haven't done that yet - mostly because what is usually wrong is that it basic premise was trite or boring (or both) and there's not much point in trying to make pretty something that didn't need to exist in the first place. But, if it's a decent fic but just has some sort of plot hole or logic lapse, or is just over-written and needs pruning, I might decide to put in the work before putting it up on AO3.

I do want my stories to be the best they can be, but it does feel like cheating when something I wrote ten years ago is reworked until it bears little resemblance to the original. It's like I'm trying to hide how I wrote when I first started out. Which I am, but.....

Anyway, can't tell you what to do, but I'd say if you're reworking the story anyway, you may as well put it up and see what readers think about it.

[shapinglight]

I'll probably edit and put the story up with a note at the beginning. It's not something I'll be doing for a lot of my old stuff, which won't ever go up on Ao3. But I was very fond of this story when I wrote it, and it got lots of nice comments on LJ, which I now don't feel it deserves. I want to make it better, so that it does deserve them.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I want to make it better, so that it does deserve them. Exactly!

[thismaz.livejournal.com]

I am torn between wanting to post some of my earlier stories to AO3 and not wanting to spend the time editing them, which will tell you where I am coming from. *g*

My only question is to ask how it can 'cheating' to edit your own story, that you created?

Speaking totally for myself - I owe nothing to my earlier self. If we can't learn and hopefully improve as we get older, then what is the point? If I look at an old story with no intention of reposting it, then it is perfectly valid and fun to sigh with nostalgic fondness for that younger me's naiveté. But if I decide to repost it and feel I could improve it, I would be betraying all the learning I've done since then, not to do so.

Sorry, got carried away there. I say again - that is speaking totally and only for myself.

[shapinglight]

I am torn between wanting to post some of my earlier stories to AO3 and not wanting to spend the time editing them, which will tell you where I am coming from. *g*

Pretty much the same place as me, I would say. :)

And I take your point about how it can't really be cheating. Thanks for your input, Maz. I think my mind's made up now.