Writing stuff again

[shapinglight]

Okay, I have thought of something else to do with writing. This has arisen yet again because of posting stuff on Ao3.

Speaking of which, I started the revision of Brief Encounter. So far, it's more tidying than anything, and really, I suspect that's all it'll be in the end. I'm not going to re-write anything major.

That's not the case, though, for one of my favourites of my own stories, Heroes in Hell. I like this story a lot, but I've had it in the back of my mind that there's a particular conversation in the middle of it that's rather problematic, and could be very triggery and upsetting for some people. I would undoubtedly write it differently were I writing it now.

On the other hand, re-writing it to make it more acceptable probably will be a major job. I don't know what to do. It's one of my best stories (apart from this bit), and now I feel I shouldn't stick it up on Ao3 at all. :(

Opinions?

I haven't had any luck writing anything new today, btw. I managed one scene of my Spike/Giles WIP yesterday. If I manage to finish that this year I'll be ecstatic, because currently it seems like a huge undertaking.

ETA: I think I'm going to have to ask some kind person to actually read the story, see if they can spot what I'm talking about and tell me what they think.

Comments

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

If you think it's upsetting just warn for it.
You shouldn't censor fictional characters just to make it acceptable.' People sometimes say unacceptable stuff.

“To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, day and night, to make you like everybody else, means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight and never stop fighting"
E.E. Cummings.

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

I agree with Trepkos. I think it's fine to clean things up, and improve the style for things you've learned since. But it's a slippery slope to start editing out dialogue altogether. And especially if the reason is that you think it might trigger someone. Just put it in the warnings. I think the rough edges, in dialogue or even grammar, are part of what gives a story it's character. If it's too neat and clean, for me, it doesn't strike the same cord. I'm not a writer, but that's one reader's opinion.

[helenkacan.livejournal.com]

I'm against self-censoring for a number of reasons, so - beyond warning for it - you may separate it with asterisks at beginning and ending and state that you've done it, so people can read it and let their eyes glide over the part they don't want to read. OTOH, as so much of your writing is definitely of an adult nature ::coughs::, I can't see how any one particular passage might be less triggering than everything else.

[tripleransom.livejournal.com]

I agree with Trepkos. Put it up with a warning. There are lots of fics on AO3 where I take one look at the warning and pass right on by. I don't expect the authors to re-write so it won't bother me.
OTOH, if story has grammatical errors, it 's a big turn off for me. It yanks me right out of the mood. I kind of feel like if the author couldn't be bothered to write correct grammar, I can't be bothered to read the work.
Just my .02.

[shapinglight]

' People sometimes say unacceptable stuff.

This is true. In this case, though, I'm no longer sure that the person saying this - okay, it's Buffy - would say it. Not in the circumstances she says it anyway.

I'm afraid that it makes her look awful, and makes me look awful for thinking she would ever say that in these circumstances.

[rahirah]

If you think a re-write would make it a better story, I'd say go for it. If you just want to avoid upsetting people, but don't really think a re-write is necessary otherwise, then why not just put warnings on the story saying "Potentially triggery for discussion of _____?" Then people can decide for themselves if they want to read it.

[shapinglight]

Thanks, love. Mostly, I would agree with you, but in this case I'm not sure I do. When I wrote it, I thought it was okay, but now it seems like a piece of unintended mischaracterisation. I dunno.

[shapinglight]

Well, none of the stories you're thinking about are ever going to end up on A03, and bizarrely wouldn't be as problematic. Those are meant to be the way they are. If I did post them over there, they would have so many warnings, probably no one would dare read them.

This is different. It feels like mischaracterisation. I can't now convince myself that this character - it's Buffy - would say what I have her say in the situation she finds herself in.

[shapinglight]

I would put a warning on it, but for the most part this fic is PG13/bordering on R. It's far from being the most 'adult' thing I've written.

Unfortunately, though, I have a character say something in a certain circumstance that I now don't think she would say and that I think makes her (and of course me) look insensitive and obtuse. :(

You can't really warn for that.

[shapinglight]

"Potentially triggery for discussion of _____?" Then people can decide for themselves if they want to read it.

That's a possibility. Unfortunately, this potentially triggery discussion has, IMO now, the effect of making this character - Buffy, in fact - and therefore me as well, as the author, look insensitive and thoughtless.

Maybe I should just put up a warning for author stupidity?

It's no good. I need someone to actually read the text and give me a second opinion.

[tripleransom.livejournal.com]

I've seen people put Author's Notes up that say "May be triggering for __(fill in the blank)" Would something like that work?
If whatever the thing is, is said by a character as a reflection of their views, I don't believe readers will automatically ascribe the character's beliefs to the author.

[tripleransom.livejournal.com]

Send it to me in a pm if you like and I'll read and get back to you about it.

[shapinglight]

Thanks. I linked to the story in my post.

[rahirah]

Well, Buffy can be kind of insensitive and thoughtless at times. But if you think that this isn't a sort of thoughtlessness that fits her character, and it's bothering you to the point where you don't want to post the story in its current state, then rewriting it seems reasonable.

ETA: Having given it a quick re-read, I'm not sure which passage you're worried about. The only thing I can think of that falls under the usual main big trigger warnings is Buffy talking about the attempted rape, and while her forgiving Spike for it may be controversial in fandom, I'm not sure how it might make Buffy look insensitive. Though I suppose someone who was determined to be offended might possibly interpret it as Buffy dismissing the suffering of Spike's other victims? Or as rape apology of some sort? But the AR is such a long-standing debate in BtVS fandom I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the story well enough to comment on whether Buffy sounds OOC at any point, but I can reread it if you'd like? However, while I wouldn't necessarily change for something that might be triggery (warnings should be sufficient), I think if you don't care for her characterization in that scene, you're within your rights as an author to change it. Whether it's because you've changed your view of Buffy over time, or just weren't thinking when you wrote it of things you now find important, it's your story and you should present her the way you'd like her to be seen by new readers. My two cents worth...

[helenkacan.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. It seems I never read this story before, so I just finished it. I don't know which section in particular worries you but, as has been noted above, Buffy did have a tendency to be clueless-girl. Still, if you'd rather remove certain apparently thoughtless words from her dialogue, then it's your call to make especially if it'll ease your mind about having been misrepresented.

[ex_peasant441]

Think of a triggery subject as like a food allergy - it is your duty to warn so they can avoid it, but not to remove the ingredient entirely thus denying everyone else.

Of course if what you are really saying is that the story now embarrasses you because you think the behaviour was out of character, then that is a different question and we are back to rewriting. For which see conversation earlier in week. But with additional warnings that your views of a character having evolved are even more problematical than your style having evolved and the chances of screwing up a rewrite becomes all the greater.

[shapinglight]

Thank you for reading it. The bit that's bothering me is the bit where they're in Spike's crypt and the TV comes on with graphic footage of his past crimes. Then, the next day, Buffy has sex with him as a way of trying to convince him she really loves him. It's some of the stuff she says then. I just have trouble now believing she would say some of that after what she's just seen on the TV.

I feel I made her too forgiving.

On the other hand, if she's less forgiving, that's the whole story down the tubes pretty much.

[shapinglight]

No, I suppose not. It's just that I'm not sure I think these would be the character's views either.

[shapinglight]

ETA: Having given it a quick re-read, I'm not sure which passage you're worried about. The only thing I can think of that falls under the usual main big trigger warnings is Buffy talking about the attempted rape, and while her forgiving Spike for it may be controversial in fandom, I'm not sure how it might make Buffy look insensitive. Though I suppose someone who was determined to be offended might possibly interpret it as Buffy dismissing the suffering of Spike's other victims? Or as rape apology of some sort? But the AR is such a long-standing debate in BtVS fandom I'm not sure that's what you're talking about.

No, you've hit it in one. I re-read it again myself after making this post, and...I don't know.

When I wrote it, I was determined to show that I wasn't under any illusions about Spike's past, which is why I stuck in that bit about him being forced to watch his crimes on television as a sort of punishment. And Buffy's initial reaction to that scene is fine. It's what she says in the next scene, where she's trying to cajole Spike into having sex with her, that's the problem.

Fandom has changed since I wrote this story. I approach all my old works as if I were this 'determined to be offended' person. And I'm just...I dunno. Did you find it offensive?

[shapinglight]

This is true. Unfortunately, the changes I'd need to make might be more than cosmetic. I'll have to think about it very seriously.

[shapinglight]

But with additional warnings that your views of a character having evolved are even more problematical than your style having evolved and the chances of screwing up a rewrite becomes all the greater.

Yes, I understand that. I'm going to have to think about it.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I remember quite liking the story, and nothing is poking me about Buffy's characterization, but it has been quite a while. I know she had to struggle with Spike to get him to leave with her, but don't remember what all she said or did to change his mind.

[ex_peasant441]

Reading the comments above, nobody else seems to have found it easy to spot what your problem with the story is - that implies to my mind that there isn't much of a problem.

[rahirah]

No, not at all - I mean, I don't believe that Spike with a soul is really a different person, but I think it's perfectly reasonable that Buffy believes that. And I think that it's pretty clear that by the end of S7 Buffy has forgiven Spike - whether she's in love with him is up in the air for me, but she's definitely forgiven him.

IMO anyone who's going to be offended by Buffy forgiving Spike is going to be offended by the whole idea of a Spuffy story to begin with. The only thing they'd be happy with is her spitting in his face and leaving him to his damnation.

If it really worries you, maybe just change a word or two to make it clear she's only forgiving him for his crimes against her - it's not within her power to do more than that, anyway.

[shapinglight]

That's good advice, as always from you. Thanks. I don't really want to fiddle with this story at all otherwise, not even to take out the 'howevers', but I might try and tweak a couple of lines of Buffy's dialogue in that scene.

I think I know what to do now. I have to change the line where she says, "Speaking as one of those victims, I forgive you," to something that makes it clear she knows she can't speak for anyone else. She's just speaking for herself.

Then there's another line I have to change slightly. I hope after that it'll be okay. Though I'll still stick a warning on it.

[shapinglight]

Well, Barb spotted it, and we've discussed it. So you can decide for yourself.

Also, I've finished editing Brief Encounter now. I'm going to stick the new version up and see what people think.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Just re-read "Heroes in Hell" since you posted the link and loved it to absolute death. *cuddles it to pieces* *SIGH*

Love love love. <3 Not sure what you mean... there's one part where I think a sentence was missing, maybe.

I've been kinda slackadaizicle about writing lately, too. can't seem to concentrate and push through a story. My "Wrongest Spiles Ever" has been languishing at three chapters, and I started another slave-Spike fic, but haven't gotten past the first chapter, though I have Big Plans for it....

[shapinglight]

Not sure what you mean... there's one part where I think a sentence was missing, maybe.

Really? I don't suppose you can remember where? Me thinking I have to tweak a line of dialogue slightly is one thing. Whole sentences missing is something else altogether.

And as for what you say about your writing and not being able to concentrate, it sounds pretty much like my problem. :(

Except that I can't say I have big plans for these things I haven't written yet, as I seem incapable of planning anything either. :(

But I hope you'll get back to it, because those all sound great to me.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

It was when Buffy was talking to the housing office demon - I didn't understand why he started describing Spike - either I missed the segue or it's not there. *shrug*

[shapinglight]

Ah, okay. I think I know where you mean. The housing office demon says he's pleased to see her because it's someone else to raise standards around there, and it's when she queries who is here already that he starts describing Spike.

So I don't think there's anything missing.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Well, there ARE those like me who like darkfic and all. I mean, really really dark fic... So instead of removing it, why not warn for it? I ADORE that story to. Just re-read it and can't... figure out what you mean. It ain't any darker then some of the stuff I've read from others really. Or your... "twin". I'd say, put a warning and that's that.

[shapinglight]

Well, the conversation in question doesn't seem to have rung warning bells for many, but I've fiddled a teeny bit with some lines of dialogue. I hope that will be enough.

I will have to post warnings on Ao3, because non con/rape is one of the things you have to warn for.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Funny thing about warnings... I use them to find as dark a fic as possible. Because the more warnings there are, the darker the fic should be, right? So I tend to just read fics with as much warnings as possible. :-) And I am sure I am not the only one doing that. ;-)

[shapinglight]

No, I'm sure you're not.