Game of Thrones Season 3 Ep 2 (the clueless about the books POV)

[shapinglight]

Okay, can I say first off...

Spoilers behind cut



...that I don't want to see any more of what happens to Theon. I found what we did see in this episode so horrid that I decided I had to spoiler myself for what else happens, which I have just done on a GoT Wiki page, because not knowing was making the tension so bad I wasn't sure I could keep watching at all.

As it is, now I know, I think I'm going to have to fast-forward through all the Theon scenes from now on. If they're anything at all as described on that Wiki page, they're going to be unwatchable. :(

Theon apart, it it was a very enjoyable episode. I loved the Jaime/Brienne fight, and really hope they don't get captured, because those Boltons and their Flaying!Yay! philosophy don't need any more victims. I also loved the scene with Sansa, Margaery and Diana Rigg Margaery's granny, whose name I didn't catch. I think they have Joffrey's number now, as demonstrated in the Margaery/Joffrey scene where Margaery showed she knows exactly how to handle him. I like that they were nice to Sansa too. I hope her words about Joffrey won't be used against her later on.

Otherwise, it was good to catch up with Bran, Osha and co - and hasn't the kid playing Bran (inevitably) grown? I hope they've decided to just ride out the fact that not that much time is supposed to have passed and yet suddenly his voice is breaking, because changing actors is really not going to work. Not sure what I think of this brother and sister. So far, they get on my nerves a bit. And Worgs? Really?

Elsewhere, things aren't going well for Robb, are they? That's what happens when you're mean to your mum and marry the world's most boring woman. I like Catelyn's monologue about Jon Snow, though. Explains a lot (though I always thought 'the pox' was another name for syphilis, so was a bit thrown by Cat calling whatever childhood ailment Jon had that).

Things aren't going that well for Arya either. Also, I suppose it's pointless hoping that someone will tell the Hound off for calling her names. Why did he, anyway? What's his problem? It's clear that Arya has a lot still to learn and a lot of growing up to do. I hope these new people - none of whose names I caught - are trustworthy (to some extent anyway).

As for goings on beyond the Wall, I'm glad Lord Mormont stood up for Sam. I also can't understand why all the Wildlings aren't dead already. There doesn't seem to be anything there to eat. Except horses, maybe. The remaining Nightswatch men seem to have lost all theirs, and I can't remember when that happened. They also - as has been noted many times - don't seem to have a single hat among all of them. Very silly.

Maybe it's because he used to be a Nightswatchman that Mance Rayder doesn't wear one either.

Anyway, I've been rewatching some of season 1, and I have to say, though plenty of nasty stuff happens in season 1, it still seems like the good old days compared to now. Everything just seems to be sliding horribly down hill. It'll be a good thing when Dany and her dragons arrive and make people behave themselves again.

Trivial stuff:

Anyone else feel sorry for Cersei?

Okay, just me, then.

Comments

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Have not seen it yet, but since I'm blissfully spoiled by the books anyway I couldn't resist reading.

The Theon bit is really terrible, I hope they do not show too much of it. It was already too much for me in the books.

I'm very much looking forwar to jaimie and Brienne.They have an awesome dynamic going.

I always have the same feeling with the books, when I look back at book one and two, they seem almost cheerfull compared to the later ones.

[shapinglight]

I always have the same feeling with the books, when I look back at book one and two, they seem almost cheerfull compared to the later ones.

:whimper: Really?

The Theon stuff they've shown so far was quite horrible, but not more horrible that stuff that's been shown elsewhere. If it carries on, though, which I suppose it has to, it's rapidly going to become the most horrible thing of all. I have to wonder, was it really necessary in the books, or is it still too early to say whether or not it's just gratuitous nastiness?

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

In the book, they actually show almost nothing, you meet him again afterwards, when he is barely human anymore and he tells some of the stuff that has happened to him. It is absolutely horrible.

I don't know about necessary, I felt it was too much, on the other hand what Theon did himself with killing those boys and so on was so horricfic, that it was kind of needed to recreate him from scratch.

[shapinglight]

In the book, they actually show almost nothing, you meet him again afterwards, when he is barely human anymore and he tells some of the stuff that has happened to him. It is absolutely horrible.

Unfortunately, that's not going to work on television. You have to show, you can't tell, or it just ends up as boring exposition.

We'll just have to hope they do an awful lot of fading to black.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Surely they can't show everything that happens to Theon. Even in the book they didn't 'show' everything that happened. Because, yes, it's unbearable.

Granny Tyrell is usually referred to as the Queen of Thorns. She's wonderfully snarky and I thoroughly enjoyed her in the books.

Arya is not in a Theon situation so you can breathe in that regard.

[shapinglight]

Surely they can't show everything that happens to Theon. Even in the book they didn't 'show' everything that happened. Because, yes, it's unbearable.

As I said to flake_sake, I have to wonder if it really serves any wider purpose in the story, or is it just meant to hammer home what a nasty place Westeros is?

Arya is not in a Theon situation so you can breathe in that regard.

That's a relief. I was worried.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I have to wonder if it really serves any wider purpose in the story, or is it just meant to hammer home what a nasty place Westeros is?

I don't know. I have to admit, though, that the story worked for me and --grisly though it is -- was one of my favorite stories in Book V (not sure that speaks all that well of me but... ).

It's something akin to a redemption arc. In Book II I -- like nearly all of the readers -- was rooting for wretched, horrible, nasty things to happen to Theon. Martin has now thoroughly and completely chastised all of us, not by being preachy but by 'giving us what we wanted' and making it utterly shameful that we wanted it. You kept thinking, "But I didn't want THAT!"

In a book/reader sort of dialog it sort of shows to not buy into the Westerosi concept of vengeance. You wanted vengeance enacted on Theon? HERE. It's not pretty when you have to look at it, is it?

On a character level, Theon is utterly and completely destroyed in ways that... well, I went from loathing Theon in Book II as traitor and misogynist to ROOTING for Theon by the end of Book V. I don't think he can live to the end (because who in the hell would WANT to!) but I want him to have full-on redemptive death because the poor, benighted soul earned it.

First he is emotionally and physically destroyed. Then his misogyny is depleted (because Bastard Bolton really is the medieval equivalent of a serial killer and kills female captives far too often.) Thoroughly broken and destroyed Theon eventually tried to help one captive (in the books who knows whether that will be included) such that by the time in book V he tries to help someone you know it takes a great deal of courage for him to do so because the retribution if caught is really beyond imagining. I kept thinking if Theon could just save that girl, I'd forgive him for all his sins.

And, weirdly, because the Bolton's take over the husk of Winterfell, Theon returning there -- and musing over its destruction, the Starks destruction, and his own destruction --was quite moving. He comes to understand and regret it, and through that becomes almost strangely a protector of the Stark's memory.

The Boltons do eventually use Theon strategically. And (pure speculation) he still has a role to play with the stuff on the Iron Islands. Yara becomes a far more important character and ultimately she's going to need Theon if she's going to do what many people speculate she will eventually do, and that too should be a measure of redemption for Theon.

I seriously, seriously doubt that Yara is going to rescue Theon at this stage (it didn't happen that way in the book. Though it wouldn't be out of character for her to try, I think. So I'm torn between wondering whether she actually is trying or whether this is just an evil fake-out to Theon. She really wouldn't leave her brother to this... but, honestly, I don't think she even knows. Still, those siblings will eventually reunite. I just don't know that this isn't a fake-out right now.

Anyway, as brutal and SAW-like horrfying as it is (and really, if they show the torture porn... I can't take torture porn). But storywise in the novels it did serve its purpose. It functioned to take all the anger the reader had against him and shamed you for having wanted him to suffer and turned that into your actively rooting for a character that when he was taking Winterfell you never would have believed that you would root for. His Book V arc turned a lot of people around on his character... it's just unspeakably gruesome.


Re: Arya, I wonder whether she'll have to got through the 'torture' she had in the book (I'm using that in a humorous fashion in this case). There was a point where she had a bath... and wore a dress! (Though it was inessential and minor enough that I can see it being skipped on the show.)

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I'm pretty sure it's a fake-out, if only because I know the person who told Theon Yara is trying to rescue him is that kid from Misfits, who is supposed to be playing the Bastard.

I feel a bit gloomy to know this is going to go on and on. Unless Theon and the Boltons drop out of sight for a long time, there are going to be horrid things happening to Theon all the time from now onwards. :(

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Well the torture has to stop at a certain juncture for plot reasons, because having "Theon Greyjoy" (as oppoed to "Reek"-- which is who Theon is reduced to) becomes more important strategically.

I'm sort of expecting Theon to drop from our view once we get the general gist of how exactly much it sucks to be Theon. Then we'll pick up when he's been reduced to being "Reek" ('Reek, Reek, rhymes with freak' as Theon's mentally broken mantra goes.)

[shapinglight]

Well, I hope the dropping from view happens soon, but I've a horrible feeling it may happen slowly, in dribs and drabs, over the course of the season. :(

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

Great assessment on expectations regarding Theon. I wanted karma to be a bitch to him, but this is so excessive. There's the GRRM mode of torturing characters where you actually torture the characters, and there's the Joss mode, where you just fuck everything up for them. It makes me miss the Joss mode in the comics, actually.

[shapinglight]

It makes me miss the Joss mode in the comics, actually.

Well, at least you can laugh at that. Can't see anyone laughing at what happens to Theon.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

As for Meera and JoJen Reed, it's an odd introduction for those two characters because in the books they actually were at Winterfell before it was burned.

Meera and JoJen are the children of one of Ned's loyal vassals/allies and were sent by their family to swear loyalty to the Starks while Bran was still being the Prince of Winterfell. The shot of Meera and Osha together somewhat amused me because at this point they're sort of sharing a character. Osha has been expanded from her role in the book, and expanded primarily by giving her things from Meera's part. JoJen does know stuff about Bran's powers though, that's the same, and both he and his sister are slated as Bran's cast of supporters (sort of like Gendry and Hot Pie have been for Arya).

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I rather liked how they introduced Jojen and Meera. It adds to the mysticism around Bran that they show up out of nowhere. And I've adored the actor playing Jojen since he stole the show in Love Actually.

[shapinglight]

Oh, okay. I've never seen that. My daughters watch it together every Christmas Eve, but I'm not invited. :)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Don't bother, it's crap.

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It doesn't look like my sort of thing, true.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Even things that aren't my thing can be okay (Notting Hill), but Love Actually was so smug and self-satisfied I nearly walked out of the cinema in rage.

[shapinglight]

I was forced to sit through some of a film that made me feel like that last weekend. I hated it so much that I've repressed the name. I only know Ryan Gosling was in it and all the female characters were interchangeable.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I'll take that as a warning anyway.

[shapinglight]

Yes, avoid Ryan Gosling movies.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I don't thing Ryan Gosling was in it, actually?

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No, no. Not Love Actually. I'm talking about this other movie that I was forced to watch some of last weekend. I can't remember the name of it.

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The shot of Meera and Osha together somewhat amused me because at this point they're sort of sharing a character. Osha has been expanded from her role in the book, and expanded primarily by giving her things from Meera's part.

I like Osha, so I kind of want this Meera person to disappear already.

[kikimay]

I hope that the Boltons die painfully. It makes me disgusted when I think about what they do to Theon. He did his mistakes and horrible things, but what they do ... it's really unbereable.
I love how Margaery and generally the Tyrell are playing their cards with Joffrey. They're smart. And I think that Headey's Cersei is much more interesting and, I don't know, intelligent than Cersei in the books.

[shapinglight]

I love how Margaery and generally the Tyrell are playing their cards with Joffrey. They're smart.

Oh, very smart. Margaery can definitely handle Joffrey. For one thing, it's very apparent how much more intelligent than him she is.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

I've come to the realization that I really don't care what's changed from the books. I just enjoy the show for what it is, and its brilliantly crafted.

I love Margaery because she so shrewd - she learned it from her grandmother. The Queen of Thorns obviously is the HBIC of Highgarden (now I need an icon that says that).

In the books I found Bran's chapters to be a little bit dull, but they're definitely livened things up in the show. Jojen and Meera's introduction was really fun, and I like the little band they formed.

This is an interesting part for Arya right now, and I can't wait to see it played out.

Brienne and Jaime are my BroTP. It's like a Crosby and Hope traveling buddy film!

I really enjoyed reading your bookless take!

[shapinglight]

Thank you. I'm finding it more difficult to know what to say about the episodes now than I did in season 1. This is because there are just so many characters and so many different things going on. The storyline in season 1 was very straightforward in comparison.

Of course it doesn't bother me what might have been changed from the books either. I've only read the first one and didn't like it enough to read any more. I do now find myself wishing, though, that they'd changed Theon's story.

But I'm pretty sure they won't have, because if they'd been going to, they should have just killed him at the end of season 2.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Oh great, Theon's back. Joy of a thousand root canals.

On the plus side, Noah Taylor! Awesome. They just keep signing up good actors for this thing. And whatever's coming with the Bolton boys, the man plays a very good psycho. For certain meanings of "good."

"Worg" really bugs me - both for the unfortunate almost-homophone, and for the fact that in most fantasy settings I've come across, wargs are basically... well, direwolves. Hey, I'm easily confused.

Brienne kicked the Kingstabinthebacker's ass with righteous fury, as far as I'm concerned. Which, given how things usually turn out with people who are good at something in this show, makes me worry about her.

I did love Catelyn's monologue. And Margaery is really starting to become an interesting character. No wonder Cersei hates her guts. And yes, I see what you mean about Cersei, though I'm not sure I'd say I feel sorry for her exactly. But there really was a lot of attention drawn to gender roles and women taking up weapons in this episode, wasn't there? Or, from another angle, of the disenfranchised taking whatever power they can get; Arya's newfound friends who come across as some sort of slightly more realistic Merry Men Of Sherwood, the wildlings having to band together or die, Margaery winding Joffrey around her finger...

Oh, and I forgot: Joffrey slapcount 0/10, but he's really working up to one.

[shapinglight]

Oh great, Theon's back. Joy of a thousand root canals.

Yes, I want him gone too, but this time because I don't want to have to see what happens to him. :(

I have no idea who Noah Taylor is, and looking at his IMDB page leaves me none the wiser. Which was he?

I know what you mean about 'worg'. What sort of a word is that?

I agree there's a distressing lack of Joffrey slappage so far, but maybe Margaery will have an accident with that crossbow. You never know. :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I have no idea who Noah Taylor is, and looking at his IMDB page leaves me none the wiser. Which was he?

He was the leader of the group who caught Brienne and Jaime on the bridge - the bearded guy with the deep wrinkles in his face. He's done some really good work in some recent movies - he played a fuddy-duddy well-meaning father in Submarine, and he played one of the scariest psychopaths I've seen on film in Red White And Blue. Judging from what little I read above before I avoided spoilers, it looks like he's going to get to use the second role more than the first here...

maybe Margaery will have an accident with that crossbow.

Good point. I'm going to start calling him Mr Kingy Fantastico in the hope that the name just attracts crossbow bolts somehow.

[shapinglight]

Good point. I'm going to start calling him Mr Kingy Fantastico in the hope that the name just attracts crossbow bolts somehow.

Hee!

Also, re: comments above, I promise I won't spoiler myself for anything else. It was just this one thing. I'm very squeamish and people had been dropping these scary hints about the Boltons. The fear of not knowing what I might find myself watching was too much for me.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

So weird to be on the other side now, as the one to read the book. Now I kinda wish I haven't read it, because now the show isn't as exciting, and the payoff from the book isn't worth it.

I was traveling during the first episode but managed to catch up on it with friends.

So far I like it, and I do feel sorry for Cersei even since season 2, as I hate watching Jeoffrey mistreating her. But then she says stuff like about that serving girl she's got maimed in episode 1, and I remember that Jeoffrey is really her son.

And King's Landing stuff is still the most interesting, even though Tyrion's part in this episode was just a filler.

I'm really loving what they are doing with Margeory! I got attached to Tyrells in both show and the books, they are like new normal for me, the anchor to humanity in the inhuman world, similar to Tyrion. I'm glad they are allowing Margeory to show her wits and I too am not certain how much of that charity is an act. I do believe Tyrells love each other and are capable of compassion for other people.
I'm only disappointed that Loras is being treated as background furniture so far. In the books he had much more to say during those scenes. Hope he'll get more to do.

Theon stuff will be bad and worse, I'm afraid...

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Theon stuff will be bad and worse, I'm afraid...

:(

That's why I had to spoiler myself for that particular bit. The suspense of not knowing what horrors I might find myself watching was putting me off watching at all. I'm squeamish at the best of times.

On the whole, I'm glad I haven't read the books, though, and don't know what's going to happen. It means it's all new and fresh for me and I can't be disappointed.

Nice to hear that the Tyrells really are relatively 'normal.' I hope they take care of poor Sansa.

[snickfic]

Now I kinda wish I haven't read it, because now the show isn't as exciting, and the payoff from the book isn't worth it.

Thank you. This is exactly the reason that I, having discovered the show, have decided not to read the books. Even though the suspense is killing me. :)