Telly stuff - reviews etc again

[shapinglight]

I was away most of last week then had visitors at the weekend, so I'm still playing catch up with pretty much everything, including the Halloween challenge on sb_fag_ends, where I'm now up to October 30th.

It was great, though - some wonderful ficlets posted. Same is true for the links on buffyversetop5's Classic Recs session. Go and have a look, if you haven't already.

Being away so much, I had a lot of telly to catch up with, including four episodes of Autumnwatch, one of The Great Fire (ITV's drama series about - strangely - the great fire of London, with Charles Dance doing one of his stellar stone-cold bastard portrayals, and fancying Ygritte from GoT), two episodes of David Attenborough's latest nature extravaganza (Life Story and one of Prof Brian (Still Pretty) Cox's The Human Universe series.

Needless to say, I haven't managed to watch them all yet. I have managed to catch up with Doctor Who, though. I thought last weeks's episode was brilliant.

Spoilers for that behind cut, and for the preview pages for the next Buffy comic, and some vague mentions of Agents of SHIELD, which people watching it on Channel 4 can read without fear of spoilers.



As usual with Doctor Who, I have no idea what anyone else has been saying about the episode, or about the series in general. I think it's the best it's been since the Christopher Eccleston season (or at least since the season where Donna was the companion) and that Peter Capaldi is terrific. His version of the Doctor has also saved Clara for me. I didn't like her at all paired with Matt Smith's version. I found her sooo irritating (worse than the Ponds). Now, I like her a lot.

Don't know, as I said, what's being said about this episode or whether spoilers about the identity of 'Missy' had leaked. Just know that to me it was a complete surprise, and I loved it. Not often you see the Doctor absolutely bloody terrified, but he was, and no wonder. Michelle Gomez brings her usual brand of bonkers, slightly menacing staring-eyedness to the proceedings (just like she did in Green Wing). If I was the Doctor, I'd run.

No idea what will happen in the final episode. I hope they get Danny back, but have a nasty feeling they won't. :(

As for the preview pages for the next Buffy comic, I don't dislike them as much as everyone else on LJ seems to (though I'm not deluded enough to believe we're going to get actual Spuffy romance in the comics, as some people seem to think. After all, Mrs Marsters Dylan has to be have been introduced for a reason). Must admit, though, a large part of my enjoyment derives from the fact that in the previous issue and in this preview Gage puts in Spike's mouth all the words that so many of the fans who hate the character claim they can never like him or believe he's changed until he's said (including the actual words, 'I'm sorry', as if words somehow matter more than deeds), yet lo and behold now he's said them, it's still not (and never will be) enough for them. They hate him just as much, if not more, and just claim he's being written OOC. ;)

Finally, AoS, which I'm still quite enjoying, but about which all I have to say is that I've discovered my rabid hatred for Grant Ward, as discussed in this post from last year seems to have survived him turning out to be evil, and therefore slightly less boring, and is alive and well. During his scenes in the episode I watched from last week I found myself thinking, "If they do a redemption story for this guy, I think I'll throw up." That's how much I hate him.

And yes, I am aware of the irony of a dyed-in-the-wool Spike Redemptionist thinking such a thing.

How are all of you? Fancy some birdy pics?

You're probably going to get them anyway.

Comments

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

The shipper-baiting is a little obnoxious. They're obviously pitching to Spuffies with the preview and we all know that football is getting yanked away. As you said, they friggin' retconn'd Mrs. Marsters in there for a reason.

Actually other than the baiting, it's kinda lame. Oh, no, Spike might lose his soul v732394! We know he doesn't. We've read the solicitations for 11.

[shapinglight]

Actually other than the baiting, it's kinda lame. Oh, no, Spike might lose his soul v732394! We know he doesn't. We've read the solicitations for 11.

I admit it's lame, and despite the anvils dropped Spike is very unlikely to lose his soul (if only because of the anvils), but it's...okay.

Not something I could ever say about season 9.

I think I've just reached a place where I've successfully separated in my head the comics from the show, and I'm just reading the comics as a bit of light entertainment when I feel too fuzzy-headed to read a book. ;)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I admit it's lame, and despite the anvils dropped Spike is very unlikely to lose his soul (if only because of the anvils), but it's...okay.

They could always do something interesting like have Buffy lose hers since she should technically count for it as well, mystically pulled from the ether and all. But again, solicitations.

I've successfully separated in my head the comics from the show,

Same. Except for it limits discussions somewhat because people bring them up and I'm like, no. Everything ended at Not Fade Away, kthx.

[shapinglight]

Same. Except for it limits discussions somewhat because people bring them up and I'm like, no. Everything ended at Not Fade Away, kthx.

I'm the same. Nothing that happens in the comics has any relevance to what happened in the show. The comics are a bizarre, not particularly well-constructed AU, with pictures that are sometimes pretty but often quite the opposite.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I always say the comics are to the show what the show was to the movie. There may be vague references to the prior story, but it's not a continuation of it.

There are still people who insist the movie is canon, too. Which is weird.

[shapinglight]

It is weird.

I've never even seen the movie, and I don't feel like I've missed anything.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

You're not missing much. Just a vast amount of cheese in a bad script. People blame the Kuzuis, but script problems everywhere.

[shapinglight]

People always blame everyone, except Joss, who can never do anything wrong. Ever.

I've seen so many people say that Buffy season 9 no 1, the last comic that Whedon wrote, was brilliant, whereas Chambliss's stuff was terrible, but I think Joss wrote Buffy really badly and Chambliss just carried on in the same vein.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Honestly, Joss seems to be behind the worst things about them. Buffy in S9-1 *is* horribly written. Chambliss didn't help anything, but it started off bad, as you say. Robot Dawn, Robot Buffy, that abortion garbage, 12yr old Giles...

Same with S8. Everything horrible seems to come from him. IIRC, it was Joss who came up with the explicit sex, not Meltzer. Which is not to say it would have suddenly become good, but maybe not as bad as it was.

I think for many people it's gotten to the point that they've been praising him for so long they don't want to admit they were wrong.

[shapinglight]

I think for many people it's gotten to the point that they've been praising him for so long they don't want to admit they were wrong.

Possibly, but some people really do seem to believe that the comics he wrote were good - and not just people on Whedonesque.

Weird.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Who knows how some people work. There was a letter in the last A&F issue complaining about Buffy's clothing, to which Hahn replied that she thought they were fine.

I don't think anything is going to improve under her tenure.

[shapinglight]

Well, she's been Allie's apprentice for ages. Probably, she's been really in charge of editing for ages, so there's not likely to be much change.

I will be interested to see if she comes across as aggressively as Allie sometimes did on the letters page.

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

There've been a few episodes of Who this season that had me shaking my head, but I adore Capaldi, and he makes me as happy as Eccleston did. My only issue with Donna was that we had to put up with Tennant to get her, but whatever. She was my favorite. I HATED Clara last season, but she's growing on me in this one.

I had decided that was who Missy was, but I wasn't sure how or why. Not that I know that now, but I'm enjoying the ride, however long or short or scary it may be.

[shapinglight]

Seems like we think pretty much alike on this. :)

Which episodes haven't you liked?

For me it was Listen, which most people seem to think was marvellous but I didn't like because I hated Clara being made into an influential figure in the Doctor's childhood. I also didn't like the one about the moon because it was just stupid, and I hated the one the other week about the tree fairies or whatever they were. Far too Harry Potter.

The rest of the episodes have been really good, though. I didn't even mind the silliness of the Robin Hood one.

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

I absolutely hated the moon episode. I think that was the worst. Wasn't happy with the tree one, either, but I didn't have strong feelings, which was a problem itself. I felt as though I was supposed to love Listen, but I was irritated by that. It's like it was trying to be too clever.

[shapinglight]

Again, we seem to feel the same way. :)

Which were your favourite episodes? I liked the bank heist one, the one after that where the Doctor was pretending to be the school caretaker, and the one where the TARDIS got shrunk - oh, and first part of the finale, which was terrific.

[rainkatt.livejournal.com]

I really need to watch the bank heist one again--I just moved, and that one was in the middle of all that, or at least at a point when I was very stressed. I loved the idea of it, though.

The one where the TARDIS got shrunk I really loved, and also the first part of the finale. So, yeah, we're definitely feeling the same way. :-)

I'm undecided about the Orient Express one--another I have to rewatch. I know I liked it at first, but then I sort of wasn't sure...

[shapinglight]

Yes, I liked that one too, though I also need to watch it again.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

I am still buying the comics and mostly enjoying them. But yes, no matter that we get to hear Spike say "Sorry" out loud, and even though, we have known that he was truly, truly sorry since he froze in the bathroom - soulless - the haters will always hate him.

Which is why I guess your hate for Ward surprises me.:) HOWEVER, let me begin by telling you, that I have never watched a single episode of Agents of SHIELD so what do I know, right? All of my "knowledge" of Grant Ward comes from Tumblr, where the same people who post Spike stuff, post Ward stuff and they all seem to understand him and love him and they all assure us that he's no nazi. So I kind of was of the opinion that I would understand and like him too, were I ever to see this series. Why the hate? (Sorry - didn't read your previous Ward posts).

As for Spike. I'm curious what they will make him say after the "No, I didn't" remark about how he loved her back when he was soulless. They might just finally kill me with this one, if they handle this wrong.

[shapinglight]

and even though, we have known that he was truly, truly sorry since he froze in the bathroom - soulless - the haters will always hate him.

True. I've seen some pretty hateful comments not so long ago, in fact. I always wonder why some people need things handed to them on a plate. Why is Spike saying the actual words 'I'm sorry' so much more important than him showing how sorry he is in everything he does?

Which is why I guess your hate for Ward surprises me.:)

It kind of surprises me too. Back when I first started hating him he was one of the good guys, supposedly. There was absolutely no hint whatsoever that he was going to turn out to be evil. I hated him because he was so wooden and boring - like a really, really crap version of Angel, who he resembles far more than he does Spike, both in his physical appearance and his storyline so far (ie. starts off good, the heroine is attracted to him, then he goes bad, still obsessed with the heroine even though he's evil).

All of my "knowledge" of Grant Ward comes from Tumblr, where the same people who post Spike stuff, post Ward stuff and they all seem to understand him and love him and they all assure us that he's no nazi.

While I'll agree that he's not really a nazi, in that he doesn't believe in the ideology, I really don't see anything loveable about him (the traumatic childhood he talked about to explain his actions was probably a lie). He's horrible. I don't see how anyone could love him.

I know this is what some people say about Spike (see above, my first paragraph), but I honestly don't see the similarities - not to mention Ward (presumably) had a perfectly functional soul when he did what he did.

I think really what surprises me most is that I care about him enough to hate him. He's really dull compared to Spike, Angel - any BtVS character you care to mention.

As for Spike. I'm curious what they will make him say after the "No, I didn't" remark about how he loved her back when he was soulless. They might just finally kill me with this one, if they handle this wrong.

Me too. However, I'm reasonably sure that all he's going to go on to say is that it was sick, soulless, selfish love and therefore doesn't count - which is pretty much what Buffy herself said in CWDP, and what the haters have been saying all along. Again, though, it's not anything new. Spike, IMO, was very aware in BtVS season 7 that what he'd felt for Buffy when soulless was inadequate (to say the least) to her needs. Yet again, he's just stating out loud what's been obvious to those of us who like the character, and which those who don't have been using as a weapon against him because he didn't spell it out in words of one syllable, nuance being beyond them.

That got long. And bitter. ;) Sorry about that.

[singedbylife.livejournal.com]

No, please don't apologize. I loved the answer and I'm much wiser now when it comes to Ward. I'll watch the series one day and make my own decision. Often a character is liked simply because he's handsome which doesn't cut it for me.

As for the comics and Spike. Sighs. Yeah.

[shapinglight]

Often a character is liked simply because he's handsome which doesn't cut it for me.

With Ward, I really can't see any other reason to like him. And I don't even find him handsome. His aren't the sort of looks that appeal to me at all.

[rahirah]

I only hate it because of the last panel. There's only two things that can come after that: "I didn't love you because I couldn't without a soul" and "=I= didn't love you back then because I'm a completely different person with a soul." I loathe the idea that Spike is a split personality like Angel, and I also loathe the idea that "It was only obsession! He just wanted into her pants!" will now be canon. The only thing that reconciled me to Spike getting a soul to begin with was the fact that he chose to get it because he loved Buffy, and because he wanted to become a better person. If they retcon that out, it's the last straw for me.

[shapinglight]

I hope they won't do that. I really do.

But I don't think he's going to say he was a completely different person without a soul. I mean, Buffy said that, but even she qualified it slightly, and there's been nothing in the comics so far to show that Angel or Spike think that.

I also don't think they'll retcon Spike wanting a soul. I really don't. Joss himself once said that was why Spike was 'better' than Angel - because he wanted a soul.

But you're right. That would be a deal breaker for me too. I can't cope with the AR if Spike had no remorse for it.

I do think it's most likely to be the 'soulless love is only obsession' option, but it isn't really so odd that Spike would think that now he has a soul. Darla-influenced-by-Connor's-soul claimed she'd never loved anything before, which was plainly nonsense. She meant she'd never loved anything unselfishly before. I think it's most likely Spike will say something similar.

That probably doesn't help. :(

[rahirah]

What with them having Spike refer to himself in the third person there -- when has he ever done that outside of when he was crazy in the basement? -- I put nothing past them.

But I agree that Spike saying that it was some sick selfish vampire pseudo-emotion that he only thought was love is the most likely option. And you're right, my personal take on that would be that yes, Spike's just drunk the same soul-having Kool-Aid that Darla (and Angel, for that matter) have. But I wish to hell they'd just left things up to the audience to interpret.

And the thing is, they could have avoided all this by having Spike say something like "Yes, I loved you, but I was still an unrepentant killer who didn't care about anyone else, and I'd rather die than go back to that." So I have to think that they're doing it this way on purpose, in order to definitively establish that Spike can't love without a soul, period. I don't have the problems with Gage's writing that some do, but I do think that he's a big ol' Angel fanboy, and might well take the opportunity to make sure Spike isn't any 'better' than Angel. Usually I'm the one saying "Guys, it's not so bad," about stuff like this, but for some reason, this really irritates me.

[shapinglight]

I'm not so certain that Gage is an Angel fanboy. I'm sure I remember him saying Spike was his favourite character - though that was soon after A&F :spite: 20 came out when the Spike fans were all furious with him, so he may have been trying to make nice with them.

Like you, I don't put anything past them. I do hope what Spike says next will be the least damaging option - ie: that now he has a soul he has a new perspective on love and thinks what he felt for Buffy before doesn't count as it, but any option is irritating in its own way.

:(

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

ie: that now he has a soul he has a new perspective on love and thinks what he felt for Buffy before doesn't count as it, but any option is irritating in its own way.

Probably what he'll say. I guess it depends on how Gage (or whoever is navigating this thing) views love. If they think love is some kind of pure, white emotion that's only real if it's selfless, then he might say it wasn't love at all. Given some of his other writing, it wouldn't surprise me if he does think that way. Everything he's written has come off as a way to bolster Angel's arc. How much of that is on him or Allie or Joss, who knows.

[shapinglight]

Everything he's written has come off as a way to bolster Angel's arc. How much of that is on him or Allie or Joss, who knows.

So, you too think Gage is an Angel fanboy? :(

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I don't really know. He's not writing the whole thing himself. He's writing the month-to-month stuff, but the goal of the season is still Joss's, so he has to build toward that. IIRC, Gage didn't want Giles to come back, but Joss said so and to make him 12. He also had to redeem Angel, which only left whitewashing given the way they did S8.

So...I don't know. He might be one of those who like Spike, but only early Spike.

[shapinglight]

I think it was Allie who didn't want Giles to come back, actually, not Gage. Gage was all for it, though as you say it was Joss who thought Giles should be a 12 year old.

He might be one of those who like Spike, but only early Spike.

I couldn't say for sure, but I don't think so. Most people who say they prefer Spike evil seem to be long-time fans, rather than people like Gage who only watched the show for the first time recently and all in a rush.

Who knows for sure, though?

He also had to redeem Angel, which only left whitewashing given the way they did S8.

Yeah, I always did think both Gage and Allie protested too much that that wasn't what they were doing, when it so plainly was.

Mainly because it was either whitewash or throw the character in the dustbin.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Ah. I can never keep DH's stories straight. They're worse the ME used to be.

Most people who say they prefer Spike evil seem to be long-time fans,

Or Angel fans. I just can't see anyone writing that A&F 20 and being a latter-season Spike fan.

Yeah, I always did think both Gage and Allie protested too much that that wasn't what they were doing, when it so plainly was.

Yeah. Whitewashing is kinda like assassinating. You can't actually say that's what you're doing even though it's obvious to everyone. I still can't wrap my head around their thinking that this wouldn't affect the character for IDW.

[shapinglight]

Or Angel fans. I just can't see anyone writing that A&F 20 and being a latter-season Spike fan.

I can, if you're using AtS season 5 Spike as a template, which is what I think Gage did. As I recall, he watched AtS before BtVS, so the version of Spike in season 5 would be his first long-term exposure to the character. Spike is so very much, 'Angel's younger, dumber, brother' and that's how Gage wrote him.

I still can't wrap my head around their thinking that this wouldn't affect the character for IDW.

I don't think they cared what effect it had on IDW's stuff. They (and Joss) didn't consider it canon anyway.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Spike is so very much, 'Angel's younger, dumber, brother' and that's how Gage wrote him.

Well, that explains a lot, I guess. BTVS characters were generally written like crap on AtS (and vice-versa, tbf).

And you're right about Joss and DH. If the story of how he got the rights back for Dark Horse is true, he never held any regard for IDW anyway.

[shapinglight]

And you're right about Joss and DH. If the story of how he got the rights back for Dark Horse is true, he never held any regard for IDW anyway.

No, I think he was just miffed that when he came along to Dark Horse wanting to play with his toys in comic book form (because he had nothing else to do at the time) he found that DH had given half of them away.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Heh. Pity for him. Actually, his 4 issue Angel story way back when was one of the few books that actually felt successful in feeling like the show, even if the story was a little...weird.

The only other one that actually seemed 'in verse' so to speak was the Reunion one of Espenson's. The rest are trash.

[shapinglight]

I've hardly read any of the original Buffy comics. The ones I have read aren't good at all.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

They're all bad. When mentioning, good is a relative term. They have the same tone as the post-series comics: The sense that the people writing it don't actually like the series or main character.

Looks like DH's starting point gimmick worked. They increased in sales (by a whopping 24) for the first time since S9-1.

[shapinglight]

Really?

Oh well, at least if that carries on for a month or two those people saying that having Spike in the comics means no one wants to read it might shut up for a while.

Though, seeing as numbers only went up by 28 copies, I suppose that could just have been 28 Richard Corben fans.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I saw after I clicked that it was 28, not 24. I didn't think the difference was big enough to edit. :P

I suppose that could just have been 28 Richard Corben fans.

Maybe. Also, those numbers are for products shipped to retailers, not number actually sold, so it could have just been stores anticipating a larger interest.

[shapinglight]

I do sort of hope sales hold steady for a bit, if only to refute the 'it's all Spike's fault' people.

But I think the only way sales would ever pick up again now is if Whedon comes back.

[rahirah]

And to be fair, there are a TON of fans who feel the same way: love's only love if it's totally pure and selfless. I just think that's an incredibly reductive view of love. I think that at best, people can have moments of purely unselfish love -- and soulless Spike had several of them.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I agree with you, and feel a similar sense of frustration with people who insist that selfless love is the only one that counts.

I always think, have they met any actual humans?

[rahirah]

What kills me is that to believe that, you have to be fundamentally dishonest to yourself, about yourself. How many of us can honestly say that we've never had a single moment of selfishness, anger, or resentment towards our spouses, children, parents, or friends? And yet most of us would say that we loved them regardless.

[shapinglight]

Exactly. Yet Spike has to be perfect. ;)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Oh, definitely. What's more, I think Joss thinks that way. A lot of fans have that reductive view about many things. They seem to think love should be pure, heroes should be demure and humble. But...it takes a bit of arrogance and pride to be a proactive hero. It takes some ego to say 'these people are in trouble and I'm gonna help them', you know?

I guess the answer will come next month. I just can't see it ending well.

[shapinglight]

But...it takes a bit of arrogance and pride to be a proactive hero. It takes some ego to say 'these people are in trouble and I'm gonna help them', you know?

Yeah, you pretty much have to be Tony Stark - or Angel in one of his more self-righteous moments.

I just can't see it ending well.

Pretty much a given with the comics.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Re: Buffy comic - I thought Spike was trying to make it easier on Buffy to kill him if he lost his soul. Plus the usual self-hatred and self-reflection. He loved Buffy without a soul, but now with a soul it's not good enough for him, what he felt then.
But then - why do I even bother, it's just a stupid comic. If Spike and Buffy had a talk like this in Season 8 I'd be jumping for joy, but now it's about what - 6-7-8 years too late (oh how time flies!).
Can totally see him saying that to Buffy, though. For above reasons. But not in the context of losing his soul again. :facepalm: His soul is stuck and permanent.

As for Doctor Who - I thought that she's the Master from the 1st episode, but thought it was too obvious and we'd get a more interesting twist. But when reveal happened I was just as happy as ever. Missi is just so Masterly, you could see Simm and Delgado in her, and she's having so much fun messing with the Doctor, like a proper Master should. :) Their interaction was a delight, can't wait for more.

[shapinglight]

Plus the usual self-hatred and self-reflection. He loved Buffy without a soul, but now with a soul it's not good enough for him, what he felt then.

That's how I read it (so far) myself. It seems to me pretty much what Spike would think - is certainly what he thought in season 7. I just hope Gage sticks to that and doesn't try and take it any further.

And you're right. It is of course just a stupid comic.

As for Doctor Who - I thought that she's the Master from the 1st episode, but thought it was too obvious and we'd get a more interesting twist.

Well, it never even occurred to me, so well done you. :)