Agents of SHIELD season 2 ep 8

[shapinglight]

So, I watched this the other day.

Spoilers behind cut.



Have to say, I think that was a terrible waste of Dichen Lachman's acting chops. She gets to scream a lot and then be dissected by the comedy Nazi (though he's not so funny now, despite the accent). She deserved better.

Anyway, the series has really taken a dark turn, hasn't it? If it's not stray extras being dissected, it's Ward yet again showing what a psychopath he is (and yes, I am disappointed that it turned out he was telling the truth about the well incident. I just don't want there to be even the tiniest, weeniest glimmer of a chance of a redemption story for this guy (Angelus with a soul, basically), even though I know he's only gone back to Hydra hoping to bring them down and 'prove himself' to Skye).

As an aside, I saw that Chloe Bennett, who plays Skye, 'ships her character with Ward. All I can say to that is yuck!

And yes, once again aware of the irony of a Spike fan/Spuffy 'shipper saying this, but first Ward (presumably) has a soul somewhere, and second - and most important of all to me - once he got his soul back Spike didn't - not once - blame anyone but himself for his pre-soul awfulness (and the same is true of Angel), whereas Ward never stops whining about his awful parents, his awful brother, his awful surrogate father, his awful childhood etc, etc. Yes, those things are bad, but they don't excuse mass murder.

:Climbs down off soap box:

Otherwise, Kyle McLachlan is, as always, awesome, I'm beginning to quite like the Hunter/Bobbi interaction, and secretly hoping that Mr Bakshi has indeed been brainwashed, or that there'll be some other explanation for his inexplicable loyalty to Mr Whitehall other than enjoying being evil for the sake of it.

Probably not, though.

Finally, whoever the mole is who gave away Coulson's plans to Hydra, I doubt it's Simmons, Mac or Bobbi. The things they said, or that were said about them, that seem to implicate them are just red herrings, I'm pretty sure.

Yeah, anyway, still quite enjoying the second series, but looking forward to the Agent Carter mini series rather more.

Comments

[kikimay]

I was watching it randomly. I have a lot of episodes in S1 that I didn't watch. I'm kinda meh about the whole show, though it seems that S2 is much more interesting. I also thought that this Ward guy was basically Angelus without the soul excuse. I really hope they don't redeem him.

[shapinglight]

I also thought that this Ward guy was basically Angelus without the soul excuse. I really hope they don't redeem him.

The level of hatred I feel for this character actually quite shocks me. I mean, I enjoy watching him being evil, but there is nothing he can do that would persuade me that Coulson should take him in again, or that Skye and the others should forgive him.

;)

Season 1 is so bad it's almost unwatchable at times. Season 2 is much, much better.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

It took me a lot to get through season 1, but I'm up to speed and I have to say I'm really enjoying s2 - it's still by far the flattest, most unoriginal Mutant Enemy production yet IMO, but at least now it's a competently made comic-book thriller with a bit of a sense of humour and a scope that seems to grow larger with every episode.

that was a terrible waste of Dichen Lachman's acting chops

Yep. :( Let's hope she at least gets some flashback scenes in later episodes - it seems a pity to cast her just to look scared for a few seconds and speak Chinese. Which I'm guessing she doesn't speak, but with two fluent speakers in the regular cast they hopefully got it more right than Firefly did... Though I'm still hoping for an 'Allo 'Allo-style scene in flashbacks, with Germans speaking English with a German accent and Chinese speaking English with a Chinese accent and not understanding each other.

Kyle McLachlan is, as always, awesome

The scene where he meets Skye will be one of the most lopsided scenes in terms of character presence in television history. But the scene between him and Coulson was easily one of the best scenes in the entire show so far.

"More powerful than the Tesseract?!"
"Oh yes! ...I don't actually know what that is."

Ward's inevitable redemption arc bothers me in advance, too. It's so obviously set up to make him so irredeemable he'll have nowhere to go but be redeemed - the worse he gets, the nobler he'll be when he turns around.

[shapinglight]

It took me a lot to get through season 1, but I'm up to speed and I have to say I'm really enjoying s2.

Oh good! I'm glad I'm not the only one.

it's still by far the flattest, most unoriginal Mutant Enemy production yet IMO, but at least now it's a competently made comic-book thriller with a bit of a sense of humour and a scope that seems to grow larger with every episode.

Agreed, though they can still surprise me, and then - inevitably, it seems - disappoint me. Case in point: that episode that starts with the montage of Simmons getting up in the morning, getting ready for work, and going to her job at Hydra's evil lab. That entire scene was delightfully Jossian. And the Hydra scientists were so Wolfram & Hart it was quite hilarious. But then they had to go and spoil it by pulling Simmons out of the situation after only a few episodes. I think they missed a trick there (especially as they haven't yet done much with her since she got back).

Yep. :( Let's hope she at least gets some flashback scenes in later episodes - it seems a pity to cast her just to look scared for a few seconds and speak Chinese.

It would be nice, though on the other hand, knowing what happens to her ultimately I'm not sure. :( It seems almost pointless getting to know the character retrospectively - kind of ghoulish even, given her fate. :(

But the scene between him and Coulson was easily one of the best scenes in the entire show so far.

Oh yes, that was a terrific scene. Two best actors in the cast by far.

Ward's inevitable redemption arc bothers me in advance, too. It's so obviously set up to make him so irredeemable he'll have nowhere to go but be redeemed - the worse he gets, the nobler he'll be when he turns around.

I know my dislike of him is rather OTT (and yes, I always have in the back of my mind that this is how some people feel about Spike), but the prospect of any sort of redemption story that doesn't end with him thoroughly dead and no one being sad about afterwards makes me feel a bit nauseous.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

That entire scene was delightfully Jossian. And the Hydra scientists were so Wolfram & Hart it was quite hilarious.

BLACK LABCOATS OF EVIL. I laughed so hard at that. Yes, it's silly and comic-booky and led to all sorts of questions of why anyone would want to work for Hydra, but still: Black labcoats of evil!

But yeah, especially since they seem to want to introduce the "How many kittens did Simmons and Bobbi have to kill to convince Hydra they weren't good guys" question NOW, it's a pity they didn't do more with Simmons.

Also, I'm meta-creeped out by how they managed to CGI a young Kyle MacLachlan in the flashback scene in this episode. Partly because I'm rewatching Twin Peaks and I was right at the episode where he talks about waking up with his dead lover in his arms, but... OK, so TV can do this now.

[shapinglight]

BLACK LABCOATS OF EVIL. I laughed so hard at that. Yes, it's silly and comic-booky and led to all sorts of questions of why anyone would want to work for Hydra, but still: Black labcoats of evil!

Hee! Yes, that was an inspired touch - not something I'd say often about this show.

But yeah, especially since they seem to want to introduce the "How many kittens did Simmons and Bobbi have to kill to convince Hydra they weren't good guys" question NOW, it's a pity they didn't do more with Simmons.

Yes, it would actually have been interesting - in a rather unpleasant sort of way - to see how she would cope if asked to do something really evil - like what Whitehall did to Dichen Lachman. It would at least have been interesting to see her put in that position, even if they would probably have fudged the issue by having their a sudden security alert or some such to get her off the hook.

Also, I'm meta-creeped out by how they managed to CGI a young Kyle MacLachlan in the flashback scene in this episode.

Yeah, it is amazing how they can do that now. There was something similar in a recent episode of The Good Wife and it was so well done!

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

I've decided Dichen Lachman is playing Sky's mother - so yes, definitely more flashbacks. Keep in mind - that episode was mainly through Whitman's perspective, so we really saw Dichen 's character through his eyes - which was basically just another lab rat for him to experiment on. The series does like it's two-dimensional comic book villains, doesn't it?

If you like the actress - she has a much more interesting and far more layered role on CW's The 100 (which is also, btw, a better show.)

Kyle McLachlan is, as always, awesome

The scene where he meets Skye will be one of the most lopsided scenes in terms of character presence in television history. But the scene between him and Coulson was easily one of the best scenes in the entire show so far.

I admittedly started watching it again for Kyle McLachian. I also skipped the first half of S1 and binged episode 16-22 on netflix. It's not bad from 16-22. And this season they wisely added two meatier characters/actors in Hunter and Bobby Morse (aka Mockingbird) not to mention Kyle's character.

Ward's inevitable redemption arc bothers me in advance, too. It's so obviously set up to make him so irredeemable he'll have nowhere to go but be redeemed - the worse he gets, the nobler he'll be when he turns around.

I actually find the character's arc sort of interesting and unpredictable at the moment but then I liked Angelus better than Angel (more interesting and less predictable). Just wish the actor was slightly better, but it is what is.

At any rate his arc is a huge improvement over last season and the other reason I'm watching. Because I have no clue what they plan on doing with him.
It surprised me what they did in this week's episode - which was amongst the stronger episodes this year. Less comic-booky and more character centric.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I'd say it's a better show but The 100 is certainly an excellent show and I second the recommendation to catch Dichen Lachman's appearances on it starting with the first season.

I'm an old comic book fan since 1972, though, so I may be biased about which show is better.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm an old comic book fan as well - 1985. But I burned out a bit on the medium recently...so there's that. And well, I prefer the noirish landscape in comics (a la Frank Miller, Alan Moore, Tim Sale or Chris Nolan's Batman series and the television show Gotham, which I also think is a lot better than Shield on various levels.)

I think it's just personal preference.

Will state that Agents this season has two of my story kinks - which have appeared in most of Whedon's series and films, so clearly Mutant Enemy has those story kinks too. (The ambiguous character who could be evil or good, redeemable or irredeemable, and you have no idea which side he's on...Spike, Angel, Faith, Boyd, Grant Ward... and the tough female and the damsel guy (Bobby Morse and Hunter).)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

If you like the actress - she has a much more interesting and far more layered role on CW's The 100 (which is also, btw, a better show.)

Thanks - I watched the first few episodes of that show and then lost touch, I'll see if I can get caught up.

I agree that Ward is far more interesting now than when he was posing as a boring good guy. At least now, he's distinguishable from the wallpaper. If they stick with what they're currently doing - him thinking he's on his way to making amends while actually becoming more of a sociopathic monster - I don't mind that at all; you need a few villains who honestly believe they're the good guys for balance in a show where the Big Bad is a bona fide Nazi. What bothers me is Joss', and pretty much every other TV writer's, history of making characters evil just so they can give them a perfunctory redemption arc and make them good again. But I'm trying to save that anger for when it actually happens. :)

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Thanks - I watched the first few episodes of that show and then lost touch, I'll see if I can get caught up.

The 100 is another one of those series that gets a whole lot better as it goes, or starts out as one thing than suddenly shifts into something else.

If they stick with what they're currently doing - him thinking he's on his way to making amends while actually becoming more of a sociopathic monster - I don't mind that at all; you need a few villains who honestly believe they're the good guys for balance in a show where the Big Bad is a bona fide Nazi. What bothers me is Joss', and pretty much every other TV writer's, history of making characters evil just so they can give them a perfunctory redemption arc and make them good again.

Well, there was Boyd on Dollhouse - who actually Ward reminds me a great deal of. Well that and soulless Spike, but more Boyd. Whedon really didn't do any perfunctory redemptive arcs after Buffy and Angel. Unless I missed something...

Regarding whether Ward is redeemable? It does pose an interesting question that I was discussing with shipperx a while back - regarding a completely different television series - is there a point of no return for the character? Where the writer has them do something so horrible, that the audience just won't accept redemption? Or a redemptive arc? And what is that action or point of no return? And is it the same for everyone?

I've watched and read a lot of pulp in my lifetime. And writers in pulp fiction like to try and redeem evil villains. Have them do something insanely shocking and then turn around and redeem them.
Then there's the series, like Breaking Bad and Scandal, that don't bother to redeem the anti-hero characters. Let's just see how far we can go. In those series, the protagonist thinks they are the hero and don't require redemption. Which is actually a heck of lot easier to pull off than a redemptive arc. Although there is such a thing as "overkill" - where your audience is no longer shocked by the protagonist's actions and sort of expects it.

I like the redemptive arc better in some respects because it's harder to pull off, and well, less predictable. And I'm a character girl not a plot girl - so with a redemptive arc you're more likely to get ahem, character development. (Unless of course you are as talented as Vince Gillian, in which case... )

That said? I don't see how they can redeem Grant Ward and sell it to the audience. That's the problem - you have to sell it. The man slaughtered people without blinking, including a character the audience liked (although Patton Oswalt appears to have a doppleganger, so not sure why anyone cared?) Plus what he did to Fitz. And the actor isn't quite good enough to grab the audience's sympathy like James Marsters did. He's coming across as a cold-blooded psychopath, while Spike always seemed a bit more upset about what he was doing. (Ironic, that.) Evil Spike and even Soulless Spike did some horrific things, but the writers kept most of it off-screen, and Marsters was a heck of a lot more entertaining to watch than Brett Dalton, not to mention more emotive.

So they have a problem here. Their actor isn't quite up to the task they've set for him. I noticed this in the last episode - he didn't appear to care one way or another what his brother did. He looked like he was contemplating what to eat for dinner. As a result, I find the character really hard to read. Is it bad acting or intentional on the writer's part?

At any rate...I'm curious to see what they attempt to do with it and whether they pull it off.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Whedon really didn't do any perfunctory redemptive arcs after Buffy and Angel. Unless I missed something...

Angel in the comics? Alpha in Dollhouse? But yeah, I'm hoping Ward goes more the way of Boyd - deconstructing the redemption arc rather than lazily leaning on it. It's just that so far, Agents of SHIELD has tended to take shortcuts whenever it can.

I don't mind redemption arcs as such, but... well, pretty much what I said here.

I noticed this in the last episode - he didn't appear to care one way or another what his brother did. He looked like he was contemplating what to eat for dinner.

Heee. Very well put.

Apparently they were originally going to kill Ward off at the end of s1, but thought he was interesting as a villain so they kept him around. So presumably they have some sort of idea where they're going with him...

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Wise move to keep him around, because he's the only villain outside of Kyle McLachlan (who I'm not sure is actually a villain) that isn't moustach twirling eviiil.

I guess I never considered Alpha as having a redemptive arc in Dollhouse. He seemed to be a product of the Dollhouse, but still ultimately a psychopath. (I admittedly don't recall much of Dollhouse). And, I'm not reading the comic books ...so can't really comment on them as such. Except that Angel's redemptive arc seems similar to Willow and Cordy's in Buffy and Angel - ie, all my evil actions were due to some external issue and not really my fault. (Which isn't really a redemptive arc, because it's not clear that the writer thinks the character was at fault to begin with so seems a bit...wishy-washy on whether they require redemption. LOL! I hate that...it's so silly and done way too often by comic books. Marvel was notorious for it. They'd have a character like Scott Summers, Professor X, or Jean Grey do something horrific and shocking, then say, well they were possessed, so not a problem - we'll punish them, but it's forgivable because you know, possessed. Which is one of the reasons I gave up on comics.)

[shapinglight]

What bothers me is Joss', and pretty much every other TV writer's, history of making characters evil just so they can give them a perfunctory redemption arc and make them good again. But I'm trying to save that anger for when it actually happens. :)

This bothers me too (again, aware of the irony, though I think, unlike the others, Spike's redemption arc was a lot more than perfunctory. I also think that Spike, and Angel to a lesser extent, are probably a one time deal for me when it comes to redemption stories).

[shapinglight]

I've decided Dichen Lachman is playing Sky's mother.

Oh yes, she's definitely Skye's mother. Still not sure I want to see more of the character, though, knowing what happens to her.

Ward is definitely more interesting now he's evil, and also they're writing him a lot more psychotic than I thought they would. I'm pretty sure he's going to try to bring Hydra down from the inside - not from any sense that Hydra are morally wrong, but because he wants to impress Skye.

Hmm, he's like a poor version of Angelus smooshed together with a poor version of soulless Spike.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Hmm, he's like a poor version of Angelus smooshed together with a poor version of soulless Spike.

Hee. Or a poor version of Alpha merged with Boyd from Dollhouse...who were a wee bit more psychotic (ironically).

I was admittedly surprised that he went ahead and killed his brother and parents. And the entire hydra team, except for the guy he sent to Coulson gift-packaged.

Is it just me or has Mutant Enemy's characters gotten increasingly psychotic and bloodthirsty?

I agree, I think he plans on taking Hydra down from the outside purely to impress Sky. I also think - he's banking on Sky bonding with him over her parents. Also, I think he sees himself as similar to Sky'e parents, as a victim of monsters. In his head, he's really not the bad guy. Which makes him a heck of lot more interesting than their other villains.

[shapinglight]

Which makes him a heck of lot more interesting than their other villains.

This is true, except maybe Skye's dad and Raina, both of whom have some nuance. Apart from that, not much nuance to a bunch of Nazis.

Also, I think he sees himself as similar to Sky'e parents, as a victim of monsters. In his head, he's really not the bad guy.

Yeah, I get that. It's actually the main reason why I hate him so much. He has the self-awareness of a gnat.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Oh I agree with you about Ward. Spike was a vampire, not a psychopath. He was *supposed* to walk on the dark side. ;) Ward, on the other hand is simply a human psychopath who has no excuse to be as evil as he is. He hurt my woobie Fitz and KILLED Patton Oswalt and you DO NOT COME BACK FROM KILLING PATTON OSWALT! I don't care how many models they have in the back closet. I actually love Ward a little bit now that he's evil and fun to watch instead of boring and cardboard, but he can't come back from it. Not ever.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, I'd pretty much second that.

I'd rather they redeemed Mr Bakshi (which I am pretty sure they're not going to do).