More scattershot BtVS thoughts

[shapinglight]

I'm now nearly at the end of season 7 in my own personal re-watch.

Some not terribly coherent thoughts behind cut.



Lots of people hate season 7. They think it's badly plotted, incoherent, characterisations all over the place, their favourites got gypped etc, etc.

Have to say, as of where I am now (I just watched LMPTM earlier today), I don't agree (mostly).

Up to this point, I'd say that season 7 is actually quite coherently plotted and very much an ensemble piece. Okay, there are elements I don't care for because they take focus away from the the main characters - specifically, the Potentials and Andrew. But the Potentials at least are integral to the overall story arc, and only Kennedy really intrudes on the main characters a lot (well, and Molly's accent. :Shudder:) . But I actually quite like Kennedy this time around. Iyari Limon never sold the character to me before, but she is this time.

As for Andrew, I can't really explain him being in it so much, beyond the fact that all the writers loved Tom Lenk, but Storyteller is actually a much better episode than I remembered, and it's not like Andrew is a character we've never seen before suddenly thrust into the story (which is the case with Caleb - a character I loathe and find totally unnecessary. Seriously, I'd rather have the Taunter on its own).

But all the other characters - Anya, Xander, Dawn, Willow, Giles too - have some good moments in the season. Potential is a really terrific episode. I loved Dawn in it.

As for Buffy, I think she's great. I'm on board for pretty much everything she does - even calling dead Chloe an idiot in Get It Done and telling Wood she'd let Spike kill him if he tried anything again after LMPTM.

Okay, yes, both things are pretty cold, but I have to admit I like this All Slayer All The Time Buffy.

I also know, in advance, that no matter the very considerable flaws in the last five episodes, I'm going to be okay with the Slayer spell, and okay with Spike being the one to save everyone.

So, I suppose my only real complaint so far are inconsistencies and not explained stuff in Spike's story/characterisation, and this is bugging me a bit.

I'm still not sure if his demand of the First in Sleeper that it make him forget again because he did what it wanted is supposed to suggest that he did to some extent know what he was doing when he killed all those people. I don't think it can be, because if so, why on earth would Buffy (and others) insist that he had no free will when he did those things? But the ambiguity bugs me. I feel like no one checked the script properly.

It also bugs me that, when he puts the duster back on in Get It Done, he not only has a personality reversion (as it were), which I guess I get (Buffy just gave him permission to be himself again, and it's a relief), but people forget stuff he's said beforehand, and he seems to forget it himself.

Okay, I understand Wood seeing him 'as the kind of guy who just careens through life, completely oblivious to the damage he's doing to everyone around him.' Wood hates him, justifiably. But I don't get Giles saying 'Angel left here because he realized how harmful your relationship with him was. Spike, on the other hand, lacks such self-awareness' and Buffy not contradicting him to say that Spike had offered to leave and she told him she couldn't spare him yet ('not ready for you to not be here'). Most of all, I don't get that putting the duster back on seems to have made Spike himself forget this.

Oh anyway, speaking of the duster, I'm sorry, I just can't get bent out of shape by Spike keeping it. I do feel sorry for Wood. I do. I also think Spike stepped over the line when he told Wood his mother hadn't loved him (whereas what he'd been saying to him up to that point had been the truth, if harsh). Clearly, Nikki loved Robin. She just loved the mission more, or rather her calling was just not something she could ignore for her son's sake - and if she'd been a man this wouldn't even be remarked on.

So, as I said, I can't get bent out of shape about it. And I think Wood's actions were very wrong in the context. Just as Buffy said, it was no time for vendettas.

I suspect I won't enjoy the last five episodes so much. I hate Caleb, as I said. I feel like he's only there because Joss wanted to find work for his beloved Firefly actors when that show was cancelled. I also know that the mechanics of the plot get more and more laboured as we go on.

But up to now, it's mostly pretty good.

Comments

[elisi]

Up to this point, I'd say that season 7 is actually quite coherently plotted and very much an ensemble piece.
*nods a lot* It's been forever since I watched it, but I still remember doing a rewatch and liking how well everything held together, and how clear the arc was, and how solid the themes. Yes there are missteps, but overall it's very very solid.

(Blame Joss for Caleb btw. Apparently the writers did a whole session about his background and why he did what he did etc etc - a whiteboard full of of characterisation - and Joss came in & just wiped it clean and said 'He's evil, OK?' This might just be hearsay, but it would make sense of why he really has no purpose beyond 'being evil'.)

[shapinglight]

I don't really care if Caleb has no purpose except to be evil, have to say. I just don't want him to be there at all. I feel like he's been shoehorned into a plot that doesn't need him because Joss felt obliged to Nathan Fillion.

Whi-ich is decent of him, I suppose, but the character is just so lame!

[elisi]

Well, it makes sense for The First to have a physical face for the heroes to punch.

I just wonder what was on that board. Maybe he could have been interesting? There are little hints at a background, but we never get enough to latch onto. :(

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Well I think you already know my views on season 7 and it's writing, so I won't labour the point yet again. :)

Liked the first few episodes though.

[shapinglight]

Well I think you already know my views on season 7 and it's writing

Yeah, I do. Can't say I agree with you much at all up to the point I've reached.

I doubt I'll like the last five episodes very much, though.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

LOL. But what about the Speechifying???!

[shapinglight]

There's not nearly as much of it as people seem to think. Only about three speeches, and the third one's in Storyteller so it's being made fun of already.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

I always kind of liked Buffy's speechifying actually :hides in shame: The original speech at the end of Bring On The Night was one that everyone pretty much agreed was kickass at the time, and Idk I also tended to like Buffy in teacher mode in episodes like Potential too, I don't really get why it was such an issue with viewers. She was trying to be the leader of a bunch of girls who barely knew her, as opposed to just working alongside her friends, it made sense that she would change mode slightly when she was attempting to rally the troops

She got frustrated and took it too far in episodes like Get It Done, but at the same time she probably had a point on being expected to carry everyone and getting sick of it, it was Buffy alone who was expected to dig the graves and bury the dead potentials, I'm not surprised that the pressure became too much for her at times

[chasingdemons.livejournal.com]

"But up to now, it's mostly pretty good." Is not exactly a ringing endorsement. Especially not after just having re-watched Innocence. All slayer all the time Buffy is a great way to look at it. I'm sure I will be much more open-minded when I get to season 7 in my re-watch. But I expect there will be a part of me that will yern for a little more of the Buffy of prior seasons who is not quite so isolated. We shall see. i'm quite sure I will always hate the Trio.

[shapinglight]

Well, I think it's a believable progression of Buffy's character. I can see how she got there from Innocence.

I'm really pleased that I've managed to re-watch the entire show in a relatively short space of time. I think some things about it - individual character progression, for instance - really do benefit from that.

i'm quite sure I will always hate the Trio.

Yeah, they're pretty hateable. Must admit, though, I laughed out loud watching the 'we are as gods' scene from Storyteller.

[tx-cronopio.livejournal.com]

LOL. But what about the Speechifying???!

[shapinglight]

See above. ;) There really isn't that much of it.

[quinara]

I love S7, as we know - and especially All Slayer All The Time Buffy! (And I don't see what you see in Sleeper, which is why I didn't comment there - never be mean to Sleeper!) I actually like it right up to Touched, where it sort of holds together but I don't quite buy the Spuffy scene, and then EoD and Chosen are just tripe, in my eyes. Caleb is useful for putting physical wounds in people, but it's the last couple of episodes where he actually has to mean something that it becomes clear the character is just empty rubbish. Before then the misogyny may be overdone, but he does a little of something useful to increase the momentum towards the end (even if it's then silly).

[shapinglight]

(And I don't see what you see in Sleeper, which is why I didn't comment there - never be mean to Sleeper!)

I wish you had commented because I would have liked to know what you thought. I was quite upset that I ended up feeling the way I did about that episode, because I always loved it before. :( I didn't say, but I did find NLM made me feel better.

and then EoD and Chosen are just tripe, in my eyes.

I remember thinking EoD was a terrible episode (the Guardian is just awful). Also, Buffy's plan in Chosen is all over the shop, and way too much time is wasted on her conversation with Angel, and on silly stuff like Wood pretending to be dead on the bus (why the hell would he do that?) What are your main reasons for disliking the two eps?

but it's the last couple of episodes where he actually has to mean something that it becomes clear the character is just empty rubbish.

Yeah, it was just an excuse to stick Fillion in the show because he didn't have a job. I hate it. I kind of hate Fillion too because of it (though I'm sure he's a very nice man if you get to know him). I just resent him being there so much.

[davesmusictank.livejournal.com]

I have watched all seasons of BtVS twice over the last few months. I think that Season 7 as a whole does hang very well considering the overall arc of it. some of the episodes were less than entertaining and i really did hate the Caleb character. Spike's character is a bit confusing at times in this season but i really lied the way he saved all the others at the end. Buffy, whilst feeling isolated , when she was voted out as leader, is still magnificent throughout.

[shapinglight]

Buffy, whilst feeling isolated , when she was voted out as leader, is still magnificent throughout.

Yes, I'd agree with that assessment.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

"Storyteller" and "Lies My Parents Told Me" are top episodes for me, so you won't get any arguments.

I adore Robin Wood (and his mom) and feel he makes a great antagonist for Spike, but I also don't have a problem with Spike keeping the coat. I also don't have much approbation for Spike saying mean things to the guy that just tried to assassinate him at the behest of the One True First Evil. I absolutely understand Robin's anger and hatred, but also think he's capable of rational thought — as is Giles — and they should have/could have thought the thing through a little. Or, just treated Buffy like the actual leader she is.

(I've been reading a few Buffy/military crossovers, and there does seem to be a strong thread in military stories that the grunts often don't tell the higher ups what's really going on, because they wouldn't understand — or are incompetent. That doesn't really come through here, though, since Buffy the Slayer is very hands on.)

Gabrielleabelle did a close "screen time" evaluation of the seasons and found that Xander really did get less time than Spike in S7, so I think you'll find it's the Xander fans that have the most problem with "certain characters" taking over the show. Rumor has it that it was because of outside problems NB was having.

As for the next few eps: Caleb is lame, Angel is lame, and everybody kicking out Buffy is incredibly lame. Clem, however, is adorable.

[shapinglight]

I absolutely understand Robin's anger and hatred, but also think he's capable of rational thought — as is Giles — and they should have/could have thought the thing through a little. Or, just treated Buffy like the actual leader she is.

Yes, this is pretty much stated by Buffy's actions towards them both. She feels compassion for Robin, but she lets him know, in no uncertain terms, that she won't brook any more aiding and abetting the enemy (though ironically Robin ended up doing the opposite quite by accident in freeing Spike of the trigger). As for Giles, she shows him quite clearly that going behind her back and treating her like a child is no longer an option. She wouldn't any longer need him to kill Ben for her, if I can put it that way.

Though I think she still wouldn't kill Ben. She would find another option.

(I've been reading a few Buffy/military crossovers

Are there lots of those? I had a vague idea for one once - even wrote a few pages - but I felt a bit daunted by how little I knew about the American military. Plus, I never start a story if I don't know how it ends and I didn't know with that one.

Rumor has it that it was because of outside problems NB was having.

I think it's an incontestable fact, actually. I think NB is on record somewhere as saying that half the time when they were filming season 7 he didn't even know where he was. It's amazing he was able to do as much as he did. I still think it was more Andrew than Spike who took scenes away from him, though.

As for the next few eps: Caleb is lame, Angel is lame, and everybody kicking out Buffy is incredibly lame.

I know I think Caleb is lame. I suspect I'm going to think the same about those other things too (even though I had previously managed to fanwank that everybody kicking Buffy out scene to my own satisfaction).

[ex_peasant441]

Welcome to the People Who Like Kennedy Club! A small but very select band. I've never understood why people lump her in with the other potentials (several of whom I do like as well) because I always felt she was awesome. She is very pretty (hey, it helps), she brings Willow out in a way nobody else has managed, she is supremely self confident and by and large competent, and she makes a pretty good lieutenant at a time when Buffy really needed one. What's not to like?

Seeing this through your eyes has made me realise something I perhaps didn't know and perhaps have simply forgotten: Spike can be quite spiteful. He is also a much more complex character than I remember. How he treats Wood and how he then behaves with the coat is perhaps the best example of this.

[shapinglight]

What's not to like?

Have to admit, in previous re-watches I haven't liked her that much either, but it was mainly because Iyari Limon just didn't sell the character to me. For some reason, though, she works fine this time (which, bizarrely, could be partly down to the Buffy comics, in which Kennedy comes across pretty well).

I think the reason why most fans didn't like her was because they all wanted Tara back.

Spike is a complex character. And yes, he can be spiteful. However, I'm going to give him a pass here because Wood just tried to kill him. I'd like to think that after the events of Damage, he might see things in a different way and apologise to Wood if they ever met again.

But I suspect not.

[kikimay]

I have problems with LMPTM mostly because the narrative seems to suggest that Spike is telling the truth when he says to Robin that he was loved by his mom while Nikki didn't love Robin that much (Or she loved the mission more or whatever) I strongly disagree!

Nikki's a mother but she's first and foremost a woman and a human being. She can have sense of purpose and goals in her life that aren't related to Robin and that are essential just like him. She feels that she's a slayer and that the mission's important and she does her best to accomplish her goals and that doesn't mean that she loves Robin less.

I think that if it would be a male character we'll be probably less impressed by her determination to keep going with the mission even if she's a mother. Angel loves Connor more than anything in the world, but he goes on with his plan of destroying the Black Thorn and it's considered heroic.

Nikki's a hero and she's a slayer, but I believe that she loved Robin as much as Anne loved her son. Plus it makes sense to fight to make the world a better place, if your children have to live in it. I think that the "mission comes first" because it's a moral imperative for her (and for Buffy too) but that doesn't mean that they can't love. On the contrary.

I love the first half of S7, while I think that the second half is too rushed? I feel like they needed more time to develop the Potentials storylines and it feels all too rushed and Angel in the end is very OOC. But I ADORE general!Buffy. I totally stand by her side.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Angel loves Connor more than anything in the world, but he goes on with his plan of destroying the Black Thorn and it's considered heroic.

I'd say his heroism is debatable in this case, Connor or no Connor. But the point that fatherhood doesn't seem to keep men from being heroes is, of course, correct, as the OP mentioned in comments above.

That said, I don't actually have a problem with Spike talking trash to the guy who just tried to assassinate him. He was trying to hurt Robin. It doesn't make what he said true.

[shapinglight]

I have problems with LMPTM mostly because the narrative seems to suggest that Spike is telling the truth when he says to Robin that he was loved by his mom while Nikki didn't love Robin that much (Or she loved the mission more or whatever) I strongly disagree!

I don't really agree that this is what the narrative suggests. Spike was trying to hurt Robin, which you can understand (even though it was pretty unpleasant) given that Robin had just tried to kill him.

But up to that point, what he'd said to Robin was the truth, I think, and I don't have a problem with that. Like I said in my original post, if Nikki had been a man, her putting her mission before her family wouldn't be seen as a problem. I also don't think the story is trying to say that because she behaved that way she somehow wasn't heroic or that her not putting motherhood before all other things cast her in a bad light.

I also had no problem with the Buffy comics endorsing that view of Nikki (that the mission meant more to her than motherhood) because I didn't think it was being presented as a fault in her, as such.

Even Spike, when he's deliberately trying to hurt Robin makes it clear that Nikki was a slayer, and slayers are different.

I also agree with rebcake that the comparison with Angel and Connor doesn't really work. For one thing, the Blackthorn business would not have left Connor fatherless (he had his adopted family). Also, I know the comics have painted it very simplistically as a heroic act, but in the show Angel's choices are far more complex and dark.

But I ADORE general!Buffy. I totally stand by her side.

Yes, me too.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with you. :-) There's quite a lot of nice episodes in Season 7. I kinda like Faith in season 7. :-D And Spike, of course. ;-)

[shapinglight]

Yes, I like Faith too. Sadly, though, I think the episodes she's in - the last five - are some of the weakest of the entire show. :(