Buffy season 10 no 28

[shapinglight]

Brief summary, thoughts etc behind cut.



I gather this issue is already available for Android app, so some of you may have read it already.

Briefly, Buffy and Spike don't split up. Instead, they decide to work through their problems, stop running away from relationships (which I still don't think is something Spike has ever done - more like he's obsessively clung on to relationships - or relationship, as he only really had one before Buffy - when it was plain to everyone else they were over) and stay together.

This decision is real, actual character progression, I guess, it's just that it's based on a complete turnaround from how Buffy behaved in the previous issue. She goes from being in a more or less permanent strop with everything to being...well, a bit like the real, actual Buffy. She just decides they're not doing this now. She's also thought of a way to fight D'Hoffryn, which is also why she decided they're not doing this now. There are more important things to get on with. This made me happy, have to say. So much more like the really real, not so pleasant (but confident and resourceful) Buffy, as seen in season 7.

We don't learn what the plan is, but Buffy and Spike go through the book collecting reluctant allies (Archduchess Venobia, who Buffy beat up in the previous issue, and Vicki the vampire anyway) while continuing to discuss their relationship problems, so at least you don't get it all in one big lump. Hopefully, that will be that for some time, in the sense that, yes, their relationship has taken centre stage for much of the season and it's time to put it on the backburner and focus on other stuff.

Having said which, there are still two issues to go. Plenty of time for horrible things to happen, and since Gage has already said there'll be a season 11, the series may well end on a cliffhanger.

Meanwhile, Willow's security clearance with the military has been rescinded and she breaks up with Lake (because she can see Lake is comfortable in the military and she'd never be comfortable there herself), and Andrew has a heart-to-heart with Clive, who makes him see that Wannabe Vengeance Demon Jonathan may not have had his best interests at heart.

I like the Andrew scene. In fact, I like the way Gage has dealt with Andrew throughout the series. Not so happy about Willow and Lake splitting up - not because I much cared for Lake (I still think it was a mistake to split up Willow and Kennedy) - but because Willow's story has been a bit throwaway this series and she needs something to get her teeth into (as it were).

Meanwhile, meanwhile, in what is the best part of the issue, Dawn and Xander make their way home through endless demon dimensions, some of which are terrifying, some of which are downright hilarious, and finally make it back to earth (by which time Xander is dressed like Tarzan and has the muscles to match), in time to join in the big group hug back at the apartment.

Because yes, it all ends in yet another group hug (well, they don't actually hug, but the principal is the same) and all yay!us as they plan the fight back against D'Hoffryn.

So you end up wondering what was the point of all the rowing (I know I did) unless it's that it's obligatory that the Scoobies have a row and break up, only to get back together every season.

On the other hand, it's good to have Buffy behaving more like herself again. And at least Buffy and Spike not breaking up is a bit of a change from the usual relationship angst in the Buffyverse.

But I think the the group has got a bit insular (the way they were in high school). I remember fans (mostly B/X'ers) back in the day saying 'the only one for a core Scoob is a core Scoob', which is (clearly, IMO) ridiculous, and I regard this insularity as a retrograde step. Yes, old friends continuing to be friends is great (and makes it a lot easier in comic book terms because there are fewer characters to deal with), but the group needs to look outwards as well. See above, Willow splitting up with Lake, which I don't like for this reason.

Comments

[kerry-220.livejournal.com]

I really loved this issue. I agree that the insular is not productive growth, but, man, I prefer them together. I like to think I don't fit into any fan group, but this episode made me happy. Maybe I can justify it because the dynamics have changed so much...

Anyway, Buffy was the one that made me happiest. I fully expected she would figuratively smack him down, but instead it was a measured, 'I don't have time for this - let's work the crisis'. It was a character I recognised and was proud of. I totally agree that Spike was never the one to admit defeat, but it served up mature Buffy, so....yay!!

Dawn and Xander were a delight, even with the Xander on steroids graphics ( I will at some point remember Buffy's line from Pangs - the one about imaginary Xander :-). Andrew's moment was a delight.

I think you have pointed out to the low light of the issue. It is wrong that Willow and Lake couldn't make it work. But, there is still time for Lake to pull a Riley and go Scooby on the military's arse. Gage is a bit of a crowd pleaser - but, wow, is that so wrong after the enormous amount of nonsense we've been handed?

[shapinglight]

I think you're perfectly entitled to be happy. It made me quite happy too. ;) This is a great deal to do with Buffy behaving the way I think she would behave, instead of being some weird alterni-Buffy. To me, her telling Spike they're not doing this now because there're more important things to do, then them having the on-off conversation as they go about doing the important stuff is quintessential BtVS, no matter who Buffy's boyfriend happens to be. She's Buffy. This is what she does, not all that unreasonable yelling and ranting.

Er...in other words, what you said. :)

With you on the Dawn/Xander love. I've liked them as a couple right from the start, but they work better for me now than they ever have. I loved their scary/hilarious journey.

As for Willow and Lake, Lake is pretty much of a cipher and I don't know if Gage would ever have managed to make her interesting enough for the readers to want her to stick around. Maybe. He is quite good at OCs. He could have developed her further. We'll see. I do think that the military connection would have ended up being a problem no matter what. Agree that Gage needs to do a lot more with Willow.

Gage is a bit of a crowd pleaser - but, wow, is that so wrong after the enormous amount of nonsense we've been handed?

Not in my eyes, but I guess the answer to that depends which side of the 'shipping fence you come down on.

[teragramm.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your assessment of this issue. Buffy is acting more Buffy like and the whole issue feels a lot like the BtVS we "grew up" with. This season Buffy had a "woe is me" attitude that wasn't very BtVS like. It's so nice to see her get back on track.

I know a lot of people don't like the show Andrew but I always thought he was cute and endearing. This issue not only brought back the Buffy I love but also brought back the Andrew and the Scoobies, I love.

[shapinglight]

This season Buffy had a "woe is me" attitude that wasn't very BtVS like. It's so nice to see her get back on track.

I agree so much. Take charge Buffy is my favourite iteration of the character, and I feel I've barely seen her since the comics series started (even though she was head of a Slayer army in season 8, it still, to me, didn't seem like Buffy).

I'm not a fan of Andrew in the show at all, I'm afraid, but I've really enjoyed what Gage has done with him.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

This issue not only brought back the Buffy I love

Right? She was perfectly Buffy in this episode - and this issue felt like an actual "episode".

If I'm being honest with myself, the issues I've liked best this season have all been the truest to her character. It's kind of frustrating though that last issue I hated because I didn't recognize Buffy. Characters being all over the place for the sake of the plot has been giving me a feeling of whiplash. This issue shows Gage can write Buffy well, and can write a well-paced issue but just - chooses not to many times?

This issue does make me want to go back and read the season as a whole in one sitting to see if it flows better that way. But that's not how we "consume" comics.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

But I think the the group has got a bit insular

I think in order for the characters to actually grow and change they need to be apart. They had the perfect opportunity after S7, but!

'the only one for a core Scoob is a core Scoob'

Whedon once said he'd never put any of the core four together--it would screw up the dynamic.

I think I'll read 29, as it seems like everything I hated about 21 and after has vanished. :P It'll be spoiled anyway. Doesn't 11 start in October? The solicitations will be out in July, probably for SDCC.

[shapinglight]

I think in order for the characters to actually grow and change they need to be apart. They had the perfect opportunity after S7, but!

Yeah, I agree. In that sense, they have regressed since season 8. I guess the PTBs at Dark Horse felt that people would rather read about them together - which for the most part is probably true.

Whedon once said he'd never put any of the core four together--it would screw up the dynamic.

I agree with this. I always wondered who the B/X'ers in question thought Willow should be with, if Buffy and Xander were together. Giles?

as it seems like everything I hated about 21 and after has vanished.

Well, it is nice to have Buffy behaving the way I always felt she would (ie. like a competent leader). She hasn't done that for a while. Not since season 7, in fact. Season 8 Buffy was a terrible leader.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

which for the most part is probably true.

Oh, I don't know. I think fans back in 2K7 would have ate up an MCU-style plot with each character (Giles in the UK, Buffy in Italy, Xander in Africa, Willow in a separate dimension) on their own. Each would find different pieces of the overall plot before coming together at the end of the story. Shippers would be turned off, but they don't mean much in overall sales.

I always wondered who the B/X'ers in question thought Willow should be with, if Buffy and Xander were together. Giles?

Obviously she would go back to pining for Xander. Giles, like Drac, is subconsciously obsessed with him, too.

Well, it is nice to have Buffy behaving the way I always felt she would (ie. like a competent leader). She hasn't done that for a while. Not since season 7, in fact. Season 8 Buffy was a terrible leader.

Well, not just that for me. For me, it was the bizarre belligerence and complete disregard for any and everything other than herself. Spike having to call her off beating up Venobia? WTF. And wanting to kill the collector back in S9. I could go on, you know? From the very beginning of S8, she acts like a crazy person with no explanation. Now she's (seemingly) more normal with again no explanation.

[shapinglight]

Now she's (seemingly) more normal with again no explanation.

I agree her characteristion has been all over the shop. FWIW, the last few issues apart, Gage has been the most consistent with her (and the writer who has made her most likeable).

Obviously she would go back to pining for Xander. Giles, like Drac, is subconsciously obsessed with him, too.

Heh!

I like your idea for season 8. It sounds a lot more grounded than the ridiculous Scottish castle/helicopter/flying submarine baloney. Anything would, it is true, but those could have been interesting stories. As for 'shippers, yes, I guess I'd count myself as one, but I could have coped with a story like that, as long as it didn't seem to be expecting me to accept that Spike (and Angel too) had never existed.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Gage has been the most consistent with her

Oh, I agree. But consistent isn't the same as accurate. She's still a pod person compared to the show.

As for 'shippers, yes, I guess I'd count myself as one, but I could have coped with a story like that, as long as it didn't seem to be expecting me to accept that Spike (and Angel too) had never existed.

I don't mean all shippers, of course. Just shipper-first folks where a story is good or bad specifically based on whether or not a ship sails.

I really wouldn't have minded any of the extremes of S8 if they were explained in ways that make sense. The show had demons on the internet, sex bots, frankensteins, penis monsters, jet packs, etc. It worked because it was at least somewhat explained. None of the extravagances in S8 ever were; they were just there to be cool at the cost of the characters.

[shapinglight]

She's still a pod person compared to the show.

True, and has been from the start, and now also hampered with having to pretend that season 8 didn't really happen (or wasn't important, as they all dreamed it like in Restless), which gives everything a somewhat dysfunctional feel.

Just shipper-first folks where a story is good or bad specifically based on whether or not a ship sails.

Yeah, that's not me. Plot is my big thing. But season 8 didn't even give me that. The plot was rubbish. I don't think Joss really does plot.

I really don't know what he thought he was doing when he threw all that ridiculous stuff into season 8 - apart from the ones I've already mentioned, there's Giant!Dawn and Spike's insect spaceship, and Angel and the talking dog, etc, etc. Yes, there was daft stuff in the show, of course, but it was grounded daft stuff. Season 8 was just...

Actually, words still fail me.

I always hated the art, but with better plotting and less ridiculousness, it could have been a reasonable story. Mind you, I still probably wouldn't have liked it if it had carried on in the same vein with Spike not even a footnote in Buffy's memory, but at least it wouldn't have been laughed at all over the internet for stupid stuff like the space frak.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Joss is bad at plot. He's bad at consistency, too. Always has been, honestly. Even his best stuff, if you stop to look at it, it falls apart. Usually he does a wink-wink at it to imply you're supposed to go with it. Like the whole Key thing.

I don't know. It was always the characters that made the 'verse to me.

S8 suffered from them going from one BIG MOMENT to another with no build-up or explanation. Even the space frak. Just make Angel human or something and you could have the same end-of-the-worldness happen without the ridiculousness or rapeyness.

I still don't know why mentioning Spike was taboo in S8, even to be mentioned in passing.

[shapinglight]

I don't know. It was always the characters that made the 'verse to me.

Same here when it comes to the show. But when we're talking written fiction, it's different. I want some inner consistency at least.

I still don't know why mentioning Spike was taboo in S8, even to be mentioned in passing.

I don't either, beyond Scott Allie (despite what he said) really disliking the character and Spuffy, and Joss thinking no one would care one way or the other. Any more than he did himself. He'd said all he had to say about Spike anyway.

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

I'm just relieved the writers are smart enough to figure out that breaking up Spuffy is a dumb idea, especially based on some non-existent supposed "pattern" of Spike's relationships (where the plural-ness is really pushing it).

So I've decided to overlook any and all weaknesses in this issue on the spot. :) I love the continued gag with the World without Shrimp or Only with Shrimp idea. I'm glad to see Dawn not require Buffy's rescue. She's far from the helpless little girl she once was (say, back in Season 5), and behaves accordingly.

I really haven't cared about any of the characters they've paired with Willow. I don't know how or why but every one of them has felt "temporary" to me. (Sorry not sorry.) I'm keen aware of my bias in this area; I may never get over Tara. :/

[shapinglight]

I really haven't cared about any of the characters they've paired with Willow. I don't know how or why but every one of them has felt "temporary" to me. (Sorry not sorry.) I'm keen aware of my bias in this area; I may never get over Tara. :/

I know what you mean. It is difficult. I thought Kennedy worked fine myself, especially in the comics where Iyari Limon's not terribly good acting wasn't a problem. But it seems to have been such a universally unpopular 'ship that even old style, belligerent, Scott Allie-type Dark Horse decided to give most of the readers what they apparently wanted and split them up.

I didn't like Willow with Aluwyn all that much, but Aluwyn was more interesting than Lake. So it seems to be a spiral downwards of who to pair Willow with, and whatever happens, will involve creating a new character, resurrecting Tara (which Joss has said he'll never do, and which season 10 seems to have put the permanent kibosh on anyway) or reuniting Willow with Kennedy.

Hmm.

Actually, if season 10 hadn't wrecked the character, I could have 'shipped Willow with Nadira, the London-based slayer from A&F. That still might work, if someone other than Victor Gischler writes the character.

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

I think most people just don't care enough for characters created in the comics purely for the purpose of pairing with a main character, for good reasons. (Dowling is a good man but as boring as cardboard, besides which we've already seen Buffy involved with someone similar before: Riley. And I'm not even going to talk about Dylan from Spike's Into the Light.) Maybe it's the medium limiting the depth of character development. So we have ships formed of "original" characters: Buffy/Spike and Xander/Dawn (even if the plot seems to revolve around them not being together anymore), and in the absence of Tara or Kennedy, leaving Willow with nobody.

I'm not familiar with Nadira (haven't followed A&F at all). I like the idea of pairing Willow with a slayer, though.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

It was K'oh that was created as an interest for Buffy. Dowling is just something they threw in after they abandoned that storyline.

[shapinglight]

This is true. I still don't get how they expected that to work.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

I don't know. Maybe it could've if they actually tried.

As for Willow, there's always Clive's friend.

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, and supposedly designed by Joss himself. I suppose Buffy was not yet ready to give Spike another chance at that time.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

Spuffy was not a blip on Joss's radar until Gage proposed it, apparently. His sole comment being it would make her uncomfortable.

Which...yeah, I don't know.

[shapinglight]

I do wonder what he thinks about what Gage has done, but I suppose if he loathed it he would say so (and must have endorsed it to some extent, I suppose). Most likely, he doesn't really care.

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

he doesn't really care.

My line of thinking. He hasn't been seriously involved in them since the Fray arc.

I still think there are strong odds there'll be a whitewash of them anyway if he ever returns.

[shapinglight]

Oh, probably. He'll say he's starting again from scratch.

[shapinglight]

Nadira was created by Christos Gage in A&F season 9, and I must admit I loved her. Loved her enough to write Gage begging emails that he not kill her. But then Victor Gischler went and ruined her in season 10 (because he's not nearly as good a writer) and, unless Gage gets her back, I don't care about her any more.

Actually, Gage wrote some fun OCs in A&F season 9. Not sure why he hasn't done the same in BUffy season 10, but suspect it's because there are just too many characters in the book and there isn't room for them. When he does write one, they're usually not too bad. Lake wasn't much more than a cipher, but then - unless things change drastically, she was only a means to an end anyway (ie. a distraction for Willow during the 'the Scoobies are on the outs with each other' arc) but I think Clive is quite fun.

It will be difficult to introduce a new character to be Willow's girlfriend, though, and actually make people care about her enough that they don't resent her taking page time away from their favourites. That wasn't a problem in A&F with a core cast of only two.

There's Satsu, of course. She's a Slayer. And gay. However she's Buffy's ex, which might make it awkward. But I'm not sure it would be believeable given that Satsu knew Willow from before and didn't show any interest in her.

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

Hmm, you know, I did like Satsu, and I like Clive, so maybe they can do good OCs after all, just not...consistently.

I wouldn't count Satsu out just because she didn't hit it off with Willow before. I mean, people change, right? Even comic book characters. Look at Xander and Dawn.

I'd love to see that awkward scene of Willow introducing Satsu as her girlfriend to the group and all eyes are on Buffy. :D Didn't everyone and their uncle burst into the bedroom the morning after Buffy and Satsu got together? But this time, well, Spike will be there, too. It'd be news to him, right? Hehe, that'd be fun! :)

[shapinglight]

I wouldn't count Satsu out just because she didn't hit it off with Willow before. I mean, people change, right? Even comic book characters. Look at Xander and Dawn.

You're right, and I even have an example before me, in that my daughter knew her current boyfriend years ago at uni, and he wasn't even a blip on her radar then.

Spike does actually know about Buffy and Satsu. Satsu turns up in no 21 of season 10, and Spike seems to know who she is and that Buffy had sex with her. It would still be massively awkward, though, having her around all the time.

[feliciacraft.livejournal.com]

Huh. I will have to go and look up issue 21! (I can hardly keep up with RL events, so naturally I'm having trouble with the "periodical" nature of comic issue releases. I've come to the conclusion that buying individual issues just doesn't work for me; I'm waiting to feast on the entire season after it's released in collected volumes.)

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I'm waiting to feast on the entire season after it's released in collected volumes.

*cough* Or go online as I've done *cough*

I do think there's something different about holding a hard copy in one's hand; sometimes when I've enjoyed an issue online I'll look for it in the shop. I can actually imagine buying a bound issue of S10.

#21 was kind of weird and off-putting tbh after what I thought was the best issue thus far (#20). But then anytime they bring up the events of S8, it's a loss as far as I'm concerned. Gage was the writer who whitewashed Angel's actions in A&F S9.

I'm willing to read S11 but I may write a letter to the editor asking PLEASE don't bring up the events of S8 if it can be helped. Seriously, I'm willing to forget if they are. (FYI: The new editor seems to not only LIKE Buffy but sounds suspiciously like a Spuffy based on her replies these last two issues.)

[infinitewhale.livejournal.com]

There are a good many Spuffy fans who claim to like Buffy. Considering the writing of those issues, I'd say it might just be they like the character like the fic writers who portray her as an emotional infant like the character.

IN some ways Allie was better. At least he was honest about it.

[shapinglight]

The story does actually read better if you do it in one big lump anyway, though I don't think even doing that will make Buffy's characterisation in the last few issues any easier to swallow.

[papricasantiago.livejournal.com]

"It will be difficult to introduce a new character to be Willow's girlfriend"

Nah. Create an entertaining/likeable and attractive character. Show the audience why Willow likes that character. Then show the growth of Willow's and her lover's relationship ( 1-2 pages of just them every once in a while ) and make Willow's lover a part of the group. Yeah, that's it. It's not difficult - they managed with Oz and Tara. And since it's Willow there's a lot more room for imagination and creative freedom than with other characters.

[red-satin-doll.livejournal.com]

I've liked the OC's introduced to us thus far, we just haven't gotten to know any of them. (except for Dylan, whose dialogue was so incredibly on the nose most of the time that I'd had no special desire to see her return) Clive, Vicki, Clive's female friend, the woman who ran the Women's Shelter - was she even given a name? I liked that character a lot. Lake could be a good character if they gave her any time to develop.

I find it frustrating that the one lesbian reoccuring character in the comics has been not only sidelined in S10 but has had no sex life or romantic life whatsoever compared to other characters; and that it's been established over and over that NO WE ARE NOT REVIVING TARA NO WAY when they have brought every other dead character to life. And Gage can't even be bothered to write another decent gay or bi female love interest for Willow? In San Francisco? Really?

Gage comes off as a little bit of a prude on that account, which I doubt it intentional. But there it is.

[papricasantiago.livejournal.com]

The main problem with new characters is that we as the audience tend to absolutely hate them. It's understandable of course, we want to see the characters we know and love, right? In such circumstances it makes sense that the authors don't really focus on new ones.

"Gage comes off as a little bit of a prude on that account"

Have you read Willow: Wonderland he co-wrote? About half of it is about Willow's relationship with Aluwyn and there's nothing prudish about how they are portrayed as a couple in that mini-series.

"I find it frustrating that the one lesbian reoccuring character in the comics has been not only sidelined in S10 but has had no sex life or romantic life whatsoever compared to other characters; and that it's been established over and over that NO WE ARE NOT REVIVING TARA NO WAY when they have brought every other dead character to life"

It is frustrating but I think that there's a very good in-story reason for that. Basically, Willow has been consistently keeping her lovers away from Buffy because, of course, of Tara's death. Kennedy confronted her about it in "Anywhere But Here" in season 8 ( and Willow confirmed it to be true ) but Aluwyn and Lake could never become a part of Buffy's circle in the first place because of who they are; a majestic snake demon and married to her job civil servant/career military/spook/whatever Lake actually is. And I don't hold it against Willow but it is what it is. I think that when Willow's ready for her lover to become a part of Buffy's life again she will allow it but right now she's clearly not. Hopefully Will will get a better story and a more interesting and better developed love interest in the next season.

About Tara. You do not want Tara resurrected, at this point that's vengeance demon levels of cruelty. More importantly, Willow's changed too much for that relationship to work again. For one, I don't think Tara would be able to handle the Willow that is, in her own words, not repressed anymore.

[shapinglight]

You know, I really don't think creating characters just to be love interests works that well. Better to create the character, see how they bed down, then if they seem to work, the love interest thing will follow organically.

[papricasantiago.livejournal.com]

As long as they're entertaining and interesting and such is their relationship with Willow I personally couldn't care less.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I've never been a fan of the Dawn/Xander pairing — though it doesn't bother me quite as much as Buffy/Xander — but at the moment I am rooting for them to get back together. They've been through this transformative (and entertaining) experience and both came off quite well, I think. Dawn must know, by her sister's example if no other reason, that a guy who has your back no matter what is worth hanging on to. Especially if you think he's hot.

I'm perfectly fine with Willow breaking up with Lake, as there never seemed to be much passion there. I'm sort of wondering if Illyria might be a worthy romance for Willow, but I admit I have no idea what's going on over in A&F.

I am a little annoyed at the silly smoke screen about the plan, but otherwise well pleased with this issue.

[shapinglight]

I kind of like the smokescreen. It reminds me of the end of season 5. ;)

I've also always rather liked Dawn/Xander - but I especially like it now because it's actually pretty well written by a writer who makes both characters likeable and interesting - not the case in season 9, and not the case with Dawn in season 8 either.

As for Willow and Illyria, it could work. The real, actual Fred is back in A&F. She has Illyria trapped inside her. Written by a better write (and Gage is way better than Victor Gischler) she and Willow could be a very interesting combination.