Buffy season 11 no 3
Jan. 25th, 2017 08:00 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shapinglightWell, I enjoyed it again.
Spoilers behind cut
Which is probably not going to be the reaction in some places, but I'm resigned to that now and I really can't be bothered to argue.
So, anyway. The issue starts with a young couple being jumped in a dark alley, but all is not what it seems. The young man is actually a demon, and the jumpers are the officially sanctioned Slayers we met in the previous issue. They bundle the young man off to the 'safe zone' and when the girl protests how is this different to arresting people for interracial marriages, or sending Japanese-Americans to internment camps, the Slayers reply (with some truth) that those were human beings and they hadn't wiped out half of San Francisco. Not that the young demon guy had done that either, but still...
Dawn and Xander happen to be passing when all this happens and they are aghast, but they can't interfere. Elsewhere a dodgy looking type gives Mini!Giles forged papers to say that he's fully human (which he surely is anyway, isn't he?). Back at the apartment, Xander and Dawn reveal that they, too, have been certified as 'normal human,' though Xander was worried about Dawn passing the test. Dawn says the monks who made her copied a human girl exactly and surely Willow could use the same spell to pass the test. Willow says the military already know she's a witch. Besides, she wants to go to the safe zone. "Wiccans are being rounded up by the dozen, 'even ones who can barely conjure." This includes her friends, her students, people she brought into Wicca in the first place. Now, they're surrounded by demons and monsters. 'It's like putting sheep in a lion's den.' She needs to protect them.
Mini!Giles if convinced he'll fit in fine at an American school. After all, he used to work in one. Everyone looks dubious and he gets the jitters. Thinks maybe he should go to the safe zone after all. Buffy says no. "You'll be a small fish in a big pond full of demon piranhas."
Spike comes in. He tells them his SFPD credentials have been revoked and he's received a letter ordering him to go to the safe zone. Giles says he should leave the country the way Harmony did. Spike says that she went on tour before things got bad and has just decided to stay away. It's much harder to get out now, especially since he can't travel during the day.
There's a knock (a very loud knock) on the door. The Slayers have come for Willow and Spike. They've evaluated them as flight risks and come for them early. They have fifteen minutes to pack. Buffy is furious. Demands to know how they can possibly be ready in fifteen minutes. The Slayer (I forget her name - ETA: it's Jordan) tells Buffy Slayers are exempt. "You can go back to waitressing. Seems to be the only career that sticks for you."
Buffy, needless to say, is furious. Jordan won't back down. Reminds her the Slayers were created to fight evil. "You used to be the best of us. What happened to you?" Buffy says she's lived longer than Slayers are meant to. She's learned that the world isn't black and white. "You can't paint everyone with the same brush. Human or otherwise." Jordan sneers, "Let me translate. You got weak. Developed a vampire fetish. 'Once you go Drac, you never go back', am I right?"
Big fight ensues. Jordan doesn't have it all her own way by any means, but clearly she has a plan, because when they end up at the bottom of the stairs (which Buffy has thrown her down), turns out she has reinforcements, including another magic user.
The preview pages, which end with Spike telling them to stop fighting. He's ready to go. Willow agrees with him. "Now's as good a time as any." Buffy says fine. She'll stand down too, but she won't take the Slayer exemption. She's going with them.
Back in the apartment, Spike says this is daft. She shouldn't do it for him. Buffy says he's only part of it. What's happening is wrong. "I'm going to stand up and fight it and protect those who can't. Which, no matter what little Miss Stormtrooper out there thinks is what being a Slayer is all about."
They say their goodbyes. Spike asks Xander to feed the cats. Xander says he already does that.
Outside, they're not the only ones saying goodbye to loved ones. There's a Wiccan girl saying goodbye to her girlfriend. She tells her not to be afraid. Willow will protect her. Willow looks worried. Off they go to the safe zone in a convoy of old school buses. When they get there, it looks pretty much like Guantanamo Bay.
I can already guess the reactions of various posters elsewhere to this issue. Again, I think it's more nuanced than probably most of them are going to give it credit for being (and no more 'shit' than season 8 was). Yes, the Slayers come across as pretty mean, but their viewpoint is understandable. Then again Buffy and Willow also have a point. Yes, many of the denizens of the so-called 'safe zone' are highly dangerous, but many - especially the Wiccans Willow talks about - are not, and lumping them all together is wrong.
The real world parallels are pretty obvious, so I won't even bother to draw them. I will say, though, when a story explores issues like these, anyone expecting it to take a different line has clearly (after all these years) failed to grasp the fact that Joss is a liberal with a capital 'L', and that POV is going to be where the story will come from (though as I say, I think it's more nuanced that people are giving it credit for, and I'm also very sceptical that the same level of nuance would be found in a story about the same subject written by someone of the opposite political standpoint. YMMV.
ETA: Seems I was wrong about this issue provoking the same amount of fury as the previous one. However, since I thought the previous one was nuanced too, I don't really see why this one has been let off the hook, as it were. Jordan, for instance, though I see where her POV is coming from, I think Buffy's description of her as 'little Miss Stormtrooper' is pretty apt. She's enjoying what she's doing way too much.
Also, I'm still fingering the vice president as the ultimate villain of the piece.
Spoilers behind cut
Which is probably not going to be the reaction in some places, but I'm resigned to that now and I really can't be bothered to argue.
So, anyway. The issue starts with a young couple being jumped in a dark alley, but all is not what it seems. The young man is actually a demon, and the jumpers are the officially sanctioned Slayers we met in the previous issue. They bundle the young man off to the 'safe zone' and when the girl protests how is this different to arresting people for interracial marriages, or sending Japanese-Americans to internment camps, the Slayers reply (with some truth) that those were human beings and they hadn't wiped out half of San Francisco. Not that the young demon guy had done that either, but still...
Dawn and Xander happen to be passing when all this happens and they are aghast, but they can't interfere. Elsewhere a dodgy looking type gives Mini!Giles forged papers to say that he's fully human (which he surely is anyway, isn't he?). Back at the apartment, Xander and Dawn reveal that they, too, have been certified as 'normal human,' though Xander was worried about Dawn passing the test. Dawn says the monks who made her copied a human girl exactly and surely Willow could use the same spell to pass the test. Willow says the military already know she's a witch. Besides, she wants to go to the safe zone. "Wiccans are being rounded up by the dozen, 'even ones who can barely conjure." This includes her friends, her students, people she brought into Wicca in the first place. Now, they're surrounded by demons and monsters. 'It's like putting sheep in a lion's den.' She needs to protect them.
Mini!Giles if convinced he'll fit in fine at an American school. After all, he used to work in one. Everyone looks dubious and he gets the jitters. Thinks maybe he should go to the safe zone after all. Buffy says no. "You'll be a small fish in a big pond full of demon piranhas."
Spike comes in. He tells them his SFPD credentials have been revoked and he's received a letter ordering him to go to the safe zone. Giles says he should leave the country the way Harmony did. Spike says that she went on tour before things got bad and has just decided to stay away. It's much harder to get out now, especially since he can't travel during the day.
There's a knock (a very loud knock) on the door. The Slayers have come for Willow and Spike. They've evaluated them as flight risks and come for them early. They have fifteen minutes to pack. Buffy is furious. Demands to know how they can possibly be ready in fifteen minutes. The Slayer (I forget her name - ETA: it's Jordan) tells Buffy Slayers are exempt. "You can go back to waitressing. Seems to be the only career that sticks for you."
Buffy, needless to say, is furious. Jordan won't back down. Reminds her the Slayers were created to fight evil. "You used to be the best of us. What happened to you?" Buffy says she's lived longer than Slayers are meant to. She's learned that the world isn't black and white. "You can't paint everyone with the same brush. Human or otherwise." Jordan sneers, "Let me translate. You got weak. Developed a vampire fetish. 'Once you go Drac, you never go back', am I right?"
Big fight ensues. Jordan doesn't have it all her own way by any means, but clearly she has a plan, because when they end up at the bottom of the stairs (which Buffy has thrown her down), turns out she has reinforcements, including another magic user.
The preview pages, which end with Spike telling them to stop fighting. He's ready to go. Willow agrees with him. "Now's as good a time as any." Buffy says fine. She'll stand down too, but she won't take the Slayer exemption. She's going with them.
Back in the apartment, Spike says this is daft. She shouldn't do it for him. Buffy says he's only part of it. What's happening is wrong. "I'm going to stand up and fight it and protect those who can't. Which, no matter what little Miss Stormtrooper out there thinks is what being a Slayer is all about."
They say their goodbyes. Spike asks Xander to feed the cats. Xander says he already does that.
Outside, they're not the only ones saying goodbye to loved ones. There's a Wiccan girl saying goodbye to her girlfriend. She tells her not to be afraid. Willow will protect her. Willow looks worried. Off they go to the safe zone in a convoy of old school buses. When they get there, it looks pretty much like Guantanamo Bay.
I can already guess the reactions of various posters elsewhere to this issue. Again, I think it's more nuanced than probably most of them are going to give it credit for being (and no more 'shit' than season 8 was). Yes, the Slayers come across as pretty mean, but their viewpoint is understandable. Then again Buffy and Willow also have a point. Yes, many of the denizens of the so-called 'safe zone' are highly dangerous, but many - especially the Wiccans Willow talks about - are not, and lumping them all together is wrong.
The real world parallels are pretty obvious, so I won't even bother to draw them. I will say, though, when a story explores issues like these, anyone expecting it to take a different line has clearly (after all these years) failed to grasp the fact that Joss is a liberal with a capital 'L', and that POV is going to be where the story will come from (though as I say, I think it's more nuanced that people are giving it credit for, and I'm also very sceptical that the same level of nuance would be found in a story about the same subject written by someone of the opposite political standpoint. YMMV.
ETA: Seems I was wrong about this issue provoking the same amount of fury as the previous one. However, since I thought the previous one was nuanced too, I don't really see why this one has been let off the hook, as it were. Jordan, for instance, though I see where her POV is coming from, I think Buffy's description of her as 'little Miss Stormtrooper' is pretty apt. She's enjoying what she's doing way too much.
Also, I'm still fingering the vice president as the ultimate villain of the piece.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2017-01-25 02:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-25 08:35 am (UTC)Yes, the negative reactions are on Buffyforums. They range from, on the one hand, a lot of snowflake-y stuff about how season 11 is being mean to straight white men, who are the most persecuted group ever (or some such nonsense), to people saying that portraying demons/magic users as a persecuted group (which is only partially the case) is setting up an invidious comparison with groups in RL that are really persecuted.
Then there are those who just say the writing's awful (and sometimes, of course, they overlap). Myself, I don't think it's any worse than it's been since season 8 started, and at least it's not so bloody pretentious.
But then I'm getting something out of it. Many of those other people are not. And it's the fandom (indeed, the human) way to denigrate something you don't like by saying it's not any good).
no subject
Date: 2017-01-25 10:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-25 07:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-25 10:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-26 09:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-26 10:31 am (UTC)This is the story they should have done for S8. It would have fit a whole lot better.
I agree on much of what you said, though I don't think it's quite as nuanced as others. They make a play at it but ultimately no subversion comes through. Like the first couple there and the comparison to Japanese citizens. They were rounded up for the same reasons the magical people are. Whether it was intentional, I don't know. It read to me as the story trying to equate the Slayers with the people rounding them up (ie, The Wrong Ones). Sure, they're rationalizing their behavior. Everyone does that. No one thinks they're doing the wrong thing.
They need to come up with something to explain why Willow doesn't just teleport Spike elsewhere. Surely she can? Or why he can't hop on whatever transport that got him to Africa overnight. :P
Jordan, for instance, though I see where her POV is coming from, I think Buffy's description of her as 'little Miss Stormtrooper' is pretty apt. She's enjoying what she's doing way too much.
Yeah, I saw that. It's a little weird, but given the poster, not unsuspected.
She (and the Slayers) are being set up to be the villains or pawns of the real villains.
Your Joss comments are spot-on. Perhaps that's why I don't think it's as nuanced as others.
no subject
Date: 2017-01-26 07:33 pm (UTC)I agree. It would be have a lot better than flying submarines.
though I don't think it's quite as nuanced as others
Well, I think we're starting from a pretty low base here. I think this issue does a reasonable job of showing that everyone has a point, but then I think the previous one did the same (even if that point was that fear can make people do terrible things), yet 3 gets praised for being more nuanced and 2 gets panned.
It read to me as the story trying to equate the Slayers with the people rounding them up (ie, The Wrong Ones).
Oh, I agree. We might understand Jordan's POV (or what she claims is her POV), but we're not meant to agree with her (and if we do, we're probably fans of the wrong TV show).
They need to come up with something to explain why Willow doesn't just teleport Spike elsewhere. Surely she can? Or why he can't hop on whatever transport that got him to Africa overnight. :P
Yes, they really shot themselves in the foot with all-powerful Willow way back in season 8, didn't they?
She (and the Slayers) are being set up to be the villains or pawns of the real villains.
Agreed. They're only being allowed to do what they're doing until they're not needed to do it any more.
Your Joss comments are spot-on. Perhaps that's why I don't think it's as nuanced as others.
Yes, it's only nuanced in the sense that liberals feel they have this teeth-gritting need to be 'fair' and listen to the other side's POV (even though they know the favour will never be returned).
no subject
Date: 2017-01-26 10:33 pm (UTC)You mean season 6 surely?
no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 06:56 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 10:52 pm (UTC)Willow teleports all over Sunnydale in season 6. She flies in season 6. Brings Buffy back from the dead. Shoots lighting. Controls minds. Sucks power out of people. Also, the most ridiculously powerful thing Willow's ever pulled off is the potential activation spell and that's in the TV series.
I actually think that, compared to the show, Willow isn't powerful enough. Sure, she can fly and teleport and shoot magical lasers and that's cool and flashy but at the end of the day that's just combat. In the show Willow was changing the world with her magic. That's real power. I hope she does that again in season 11. Helping Buffy punch things is just beneath her.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 04:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-01-27 12:56 am (UTC)Not only that, but a town had just been destroyed. Supernatural elements were outed to the public. One major problem of S11 is that...why now? Why is the dragon different than any of the other mystical and destructive things that happened in 8-10 like Twilight or Maloker?
but we're not meant to agree with her
That's what I mean. It's like Faith showing up in S3 with her wild, careless actions. You just know it's going to end badly. The only real mystery is if she'll change her ways or if she's the bad guy.
Yes, they really shot themselves in the foot with all-powerful Willow way back in season 8, didn't they?
You could say it started earlier, but I think S8 is where magic starts being so flippantly used. I thought they went to far in S6 but even there magic was draining. In the comics, she can fly, teleport, cast spells just by flicking her wrists and it doesn't seem to affect her at all.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 06:51 pm (UTC)Well, maybe the season 8 defenders who insisted at the time that all the natural disasters that accompanied Twilight really did only happen in unpopulated areas were right all along? ;)
The only real mystery is if she'll change her ways or if she's the bad guy.
I think she'll change her ways. Whoever is behind all this (the vice president, I still suspect) will get around to the Slayers in the end. Then she'll realise Buffy was right all along. Or something on those lines.
In the comics, she can fly, teleport, cast spells just by flicking her wrists and it doesn't seem to affect her at all.
Don't forget recovering instantly from a complete lobotomy.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 10:46 pm (UTC)Yeah, all those unpopulated cities. Forget the whole bit where they have panels of Angel saving people and all that.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 04:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 06:33 am (UTC)I recall the comments on 2 from buffy boards (or was it buffy forums?) and the criticisms/praise seemed to be split along partisan lines (surprise, surprise), but in any case, I don't think it's that 3 is really more nuanced than 2. It's that shit just got real out here in the world. Even back when 2 dropped people were still saying "oh he won't be as bad as all that, give him a chance". That excuse is gone now and suddenly the storyline is far too real.
And for all that, I did enjoy it - perhaps because of that. The last few seasons of the comics have been difficult to connect with in any real world or emotional way, although I did connect with Buffy in moments here and there in S10. And I thought the pacing was fast but well-maintained this issue, so I'm hoping Gage doesn't blow it. I think S10 would have benefitted being half as long. Again the fast pace would have seemed a touch absurd just a couple of months, even a couple of weeks ago, but now? Not so much. The Spuffy moments here are nicely understated and mature ( "Have I mentioned I fancy you?" )- their romance is woven into the fabric of their relationship and their world (even as that world is fraying) so hopefully it can continue in that vein.
I agree with you and infinitewhale that this scenario already plays better than S8, and again I find myself comparing Gage to a fanfiction writer. It feels as though S11 is in some ways his take on S8.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 04:53 pm (UTC)That might be true of a couple of posters, but many of the people complaining about no 2 quite possibly voted for the current situation. It's just that they feel 3 was more sympathetic towards characters coming from where they're coming from. Or something.
The Spuffy moments here are nicely understated and mature ( "Have I mentioned I fancy you?" )- their romance is woven into the fabric of their relationship and their world (even as that world is fraying) so hopefully it can continue in that vein.
Agreed. I like that it's a done deal in the background.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 08:01 pm (UTC)Hmm. I guess I'll have to reread #2 & 3 then - I think reading issues piecemeal a month at a time really doesn't give me a sense of the flow of the story, but the two issues seemed pretty much of a piece as far as I remember.
(I don't know if it says more about me or about the comics that I'm willing to re-read them. I'd actually like to do that with the whole of 10 at some point; whereas I can't make it through a single issue of seasons 8 or 9 before I say, nope. no thanks and put it down.)
I like that it's a done deal in the background.
Yes. Its sort of the payoff for the awkwardness of several stretches of 10. Ok, yes, Gage can be very on the nose and he's not the best writer, but he can also be subtle and elegant at times. I get why he felt the need to establish the relationship in hindsight and take so much time doing so - if 10 had directly followed season 7 if would have made more sense. Again, this contributes to my sense of the comics as fanfiction to start with, as Gage's as fanfiction of said fanfiction. The sense of "this didn't make sense to me in seasons 8 and 9, and I didn't like the way this went in 7" so unfortunately with him that leads to some nonsensical and inelegant solution as he winds his way around or sort of tosses out chunks of prior seasons. It's not surprising that establishing Spuffy firmly was his idea and Joss sort of seems to have shrugged and said "sure, whatever".
Which is not to excuse the worst of Gage's sins as a writer, but at least his nonsense I found readable and mostly enjoyable.
Speaking of Gage, I read the interview with him conducted by Slayalive after season 10, and someone asked about the Slayers worldwide and what happened to the Slayer line (were new Slayers going to be called, what was the effect of the seed being reborn etc) and he admitted he hadn't thought about it. That's a pretty huge chunk of the buffyverse mythos to not even think about - like, it's the central mythos. It's the mythos of the protagonist. You'd think someone would have given that a lick of thought, but whatever.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-10 10:38 am (UTC)I know what you mean. I enjoyed 10 enough to think seriously for a moment of re-reading the comics from the start. But then I remembered how much I disliked most of seasons 8 and 9 and decided, why subject myself to that again for no reason? It's a shame, though, because though season 10 doesn't hinge too much on what has gone before, I don't like feeling like I have ignore two whole 'season's' worth of the story.
That's a pretty huge chunk of the buffyverse mythos to not even think about - like, it's the central mythos. It's the mythos of the protagonist. You'd think someone would have given that a lick of thought, but whatever.
Well, it's possible he feels it's not his mythos and it's up to Joss to say.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 08:03 pm (UTC)Say that a little louder for the folks in the back, please. /s
no subject
Date: 2017-01-27 10:31 pm (UTC)It's silly that it doesn't address Willow's teleportation abilities, though. It's an easy fix. Just have Willow say she wishes she could still do that, or have Spike say he doesn't want her to. Otherwise, we're all stuck wondering why they don't just do it. I guess so they could put in the line about the border patrol dusting the vamps who are trying to leave. Pretty final sentence for the people they say they want gone. What's possible justification is there for that?
Things in this totally metaphorical future do seem to be unevenly applied, which is so often the problem in real life. Hell, I am on occasion a relativist, so I see the attraction of the "he may be an asshole/dictator/evil demon, but at least he's our asshole/dictator/evil demon" argument. So Slayers and magic users who cooperate (regardless of ability) get exemptions, but harmless satyrs don't? The formula is faulty from the get-go. And who is vetting the exemption holders? Because the jackboots are getting some power in this, and we al know what that leads to, even if we hadn't seen the gleeful expressions on them right there on the page.
It's depressing but intriguing. As always with this type of fiction, societal ills can be addressed pretty openly because it's just silly vampire/space/elf stories. And I do like that everybody has a point, but there are still people who are just plain wrong. *\o/*
no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 06:55 pm (UTC)Yes, I agree. It's pretty well done. I even saw a very convincing argument on Slayalive for not getting wound up about the rather clumsy comparison between RL persecuted minorities and the supernatural beings in not just the Buffyverse but the X-verse, or wherever.
I also agree that it's silly not to address the fact that Willow has been pretty much all-powerful in the comics up to now so it's odd that what she can do seems so limited here.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-02 10:49 pm (UTC)They can get around that by having that dome thing be magic restrictive. Naturally they wouldn't tell her that before sending her there. Maybe some W&H tech like the bus windows.
Speaking of which, I wonder if they'll show up this run or they've been dropped like the magic council.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 06:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 11:52 am (UTC)I saw. Preview looks like it's heading off the rails, sadly. I really don't know what these writers have against competent main characters.
no subject
Date: 2017-02-03 04:55 pm (UTC)I guess they could turn out to be the ultimate villains. I'm sure they could get hold of a destructive Chinese dragon if they wanted to. But I don't really see how the situation as it's unfolded so far would be to their advantage. Still, early days.