Lucifer season 3 episode 10

[shapinglight]

The so-called winter finale.

Spoilers behind cut. Not Tom Welling-friendly.



Okay, my guesses about Pierce - that he'd turn out to be immortal and affected by Chloe the same way Lucifer is, that he's really the Sinnerman, or the real Sinnerman behind the fake one, or whatever- have turned out to be right. I hadn't guessed that he'd be Cain (or Kane, as Amazon's subtitles insisted on spelling it), though. He wasn't kidding when he said the Sinnerman had killed his brother, was he?

As far as I recall it's not stated in the bible that Cain was immortal, is it, just that the mark God set on him meant no one would kill him in his (mortal) lifetime?

Whatever. It doesn't matter either way. It also doesn't really explain what Pierce wants going forward. If he really is behind Lucifer losing his devil face and being stuck with angel wings he doesn't want, does this mean he's Dad's messenger, and if so, what's the message? No idea. On the other hand, he could be acting on his own behalf, either to take revenge on Lucifer for having his mum and dad thrown out of Eden, or because he really wanted Lucifer to kill him so he can die forever. If it's that, though, why send a substitute, and why was the fake Sinnerman so keen for Lucifer to kill him.

Unless it was to damn Lucifer forever in Chloe's eyes? Which has pretty much happened anyway. In fact, I didn't think Chloe was angry enough, considering what Lucifer had done to the fake Sinnerman before she caught up with him. She'd be furious with Maze too, if she knew about her part in the whole business. Which could still come out and cause huge ructions down the road.

So, don't know what Pierce/Cain wants, beyond breaking up Chloe and Lucifer, which he seems to have managed to do. Quite intrigued to find out.

Or would be, if it weren't that the whole thing depends on Tom Welling. God, he's useless. A useless great bland lump. What should be an exciting plot, and a welcome return of the supernatural element in the show, is dragged down by every scene Welling is in. :Gloom:

Other stuff:

I enjoyed the Trixie/Dan/Charlotte stuff, but it was too divorced from the main plot. Also, I hope we get some Chloe/Maze/Trixie home scenes soon. I know Lesley-Ann Brandt had only just come back to work when eps 9 and 10 were shot so we can't expect to see her in too many scenes, and certainly not in any action ones, but I hope that will change as the season progresses.

Seems the show returns on 1st January for a few more episodes (no idea how many), though the first episode after they come back is the final standalone left over from season 2. From the preview, looks like we finally get the Lucifer/Amenadiel cage fighting scene, and the Lucifer-does-John-Travolta-in-Saturday-Night-Fever scene.

Ella was being completely OTT in this episode. Even I thought so this time. Annoyingly, it seemed completely plot-driven. Make her so annoying that Pierce/Cain will actually lose his temper with her, which will give Lucifer a clue as to his real identity. Not quite sure that works, to be honest. Cain killed Abel in a fit of jealous rage, not because Abel was irritating the crap out of him.

Also, wasn't it a bit stupid of Pierce/Cain not to check the fake Sinnerman's effects before they ended up in evidence? Or did he want Lucifer to find that photograph? Hmm.

I'd care a lot more about what his motivations were if only a better actor was playing the part. More gloom.

Comments

[shadowkat]

Had the same reaction to the episode and Welling that you did. (I wish they'd gotten someone else to play this part. The appeal of Welling is completely lost on me, in somewhat the same manner that the appeal of Twilight series is lost on me, and the appeal of Robert Pattinson, I'm afraid...making me wonder if these fans are on something.)

Anyhow...

As far as I recall it's not stated in the bible that Cain was immortal, is it, just that the mark God set on him meant no one would kill him in his (mortal) lifetime?

No not the Bible, although in a lot of weird-ass interpretations of it. I've seen this trope done before. Sort of similar to the "Wandering Jew" myth.

HERE

The Cain question has been around for a long time and although some believe he is dead, more believe the Bible to say that he was cursed to live forever [at least while this earth is in existence] and will not die until the end thereof. Genesis 4:14-15 notes that he was cursed to live, not cursed to die, and it was the Lord who put that curse on him. More to the point, the Lord also pronounced a curse on any man who would kill Cain, and to better identify him, put “a mark” on Cain. In short, Cain was cursed to live. He’s the ultimate example of the movie Groundhog Day.

Some people interpret it, as you see above, as not just a curse to wander and never reap, but to do so endlessly.
Depends on how you interpret certain ancient Hebrew words. They have more than one meaning apparently.

I rolled my eyes. But it fits with the general theme of the series -- which is the prodigal son or son caste out by the father. Lucifer was cast out of heaven by his father, Amenadial is attempting to make "amends" with his father,
Cain killed his brother and was cursed by his father...and in turn, kills his son, after turning his adoptive son into a sinnerman.

I just wish they cast someone like oh, David Boreanze in the part. I find him more watchable.

Welling irritates me.

*Agreed, why Chole wasn't more pissed off, I don't know. Since Lucifer did play her and abused her trust, by taking off with their suspect and torturing him for his own ends.

lla was being completely OTT in this episode. Even I thought so this time. Annoyingly, it seemed completely plot-driven. Make her so annoying that Pierce/Cain will actually lose his temper with her, which will give Lucifer a clue as to his real identity. Not quite sure that works, to be honest. Cain killed Abel in a fit of jealous rage, not because Abel was irritating the crap out of him.

Agreed that didn't make any sense to me either. I rewound it a few times, and no, don't understand why Lucifer figured it out watching Pierce blow up at Ella, who was over-the-top in the irritating department. She's being written oddly this year. And unevenly. I feel sorry for the actress.

Did however love Ellis in the final scene where he kills Cain, then calmly waits for him to come to, while drinking a bourbon.

[shapinglight]

Cain killed his brother and was cursed by his father...and in turn, kills his son, after turning his adoptive son into a sinnerman.

Unless they're going with The Sandman version of Cain and Abel, which I was not aware of until last night, because I've never read The Sandman and am only aware of the history of comics Lucifer in Mike Carey's series (though of course I know he started off as a Gaiman character in The Sandman). Apparently, in The Sandman, Cain and Abel are inhabitants of the Dream, and Cain is cursed to kill his brother over and over for eternity (so I guess poor old Abel is cursed to get killed over and over for eternity, which seems massively unfair). So it's possible that rather than adopted son the fake Sinnerman is Abel and will turn up again at some point.

Maybe their plan was to get Lucifer to kill Abel instead, thus breaking the cycle.

More likely, though, the show will do something completely different. We'll see.

[scripsi]

I cannot like Tom Welling. I never seen him in anything else, and I don't get why people rave about him. I wasn't surprised he turned out to be Cain, even if I hadn't pegged him as just that character- there was something fishy about him.

I liked the episode well enough apart from Ella. Even with her penchant of hugging and being nice topeople, it felt forced.

[shadowkat]

Oh, I'd forgotten about that one. It's possible they are going with Gaiman's Sandman version. (The credits state - "adapted from the characters created by Neil Gaiman, Mike Carey, and two other guys".) So maybe?

[shapinglight]

I liked the episode well enough apart from Ella. Even with her penchant of hugging and being nice to people, it felt forced.

The second time I watched the episode Ella's OTT-ness didn't seem quite as bad. I certainly haven't felt she was more OTT than usual this season up until now. But I agree, it was forced here for plot reasons.

[ex_peasant441]

It's so annoying when a show brings in a big star with a huge fanfare and they in fact suck the life out. Probably no established show can deal well with it, unless the star is a very minor part. By definition it is going to take the show's attention away from the leads and it is the established leads that people are going to be watching for. I think it is really dumb when shows do this.

[yourlibrarian]

I expect to see this tomorrow or Sunday as we're finishing The Crown. But I came across this and didn't know if you'd seen it: https://alexia-drake.dreamwidth.org/26484.html

[yourlibrarian]

Well we actually saw it last night because Mike wanted a break from The Crown. And yes, I'd figured he was Sinnerman from the moment he showed up since otherwhise why bother? It's not like we've seen Chloe's supervisor for the longest time regardless of what they get up to, nor had the Sinnerman already been set up as a season-long threat.

Maybe they're just borrowing from Supernatural in terms of Cain's storyline. In that show he was immortal until he was able to pass the mark on so let's see if that's where this goes. I doubt it though.

I do have one thought about the fake Sinnerman. Perhaps Cain was testing Lucifer because he wanted to see if Lucifer had the wherewithal to kill him. He may be immortal but he was originally human so perhaps there's an angle there that matters. Although the real question is why the puppet Sinnerman wanted to die at all. Perhaps just fear of what could be worse?

But yes, the divide between Lucifer and Chloe seems the only real effect so far. Maybe too the one between Maze and Lucifer? The idea being to isolate him? In which case Ammenadiel should be next.

And yes, what was with Ella! So annoying, plus only an episode ago she was shipping Chloe and Pierce, now she's all after him? I did like the final scene where we're left in suspense as to whether or not Lucifer has just murdered an innocent man. Frankly I think that's where they should have gone with it, throw the whole audience off. But no. And yes, I have to say that Pierce seemed particularly humorless and lifeless in this episode proving once and for all that he wasn't simply hampered by playing Clark Kent compared to Lex Luthor, he's just hampered by playing anything.

[shapinglight]

Well, it certainly is when the 'big star' can't even act. As it is, I don't think Welling takes attention away from Tom Ellis at least, because Ellis is so much more lively to watch. I do think his presence is impacting unfavourably on the rest of the cast, though.

[shapinglight]

Thanks for the link. They were really good icons. I snagged most of them, excepting the ones with Pierce in them. ;)

I can't wait to start watching The Crown. I have to wait till M comes home for Christmas.

[shapinglight]

Maybe they're just borrowing from Supernatural in terms of Cain's storyline. In that show he was immortal until he was able to pass the mark on so let's see if that's where this goes. I doubt it though.

Well, a version of Cain exists in the Sandman/Lucifer continuity, so I doubt they'll borrow from SPN. No need. I somehow doubt they'll go with the (comics) canonical version either, though. When I read the Wiki page it all seemed a bit complicated to me.

My theory is that Pierce/Cain wants to die and thinks that the devil may be able to kill him where others have failed (doubtful, IMO), though if death really is what he's after, now he realises he's vulnerable around Chloe, I don't know why he doesn't just shoot himself in her presence.

Obvs he won't because that's not the sort of drama they want, but I wish he would just so Pierce would be gone for good.

And yes, I have to say that Pierce seemed particularly humorless and lifeless in this episode proving once and for all that he wasn't simply hampered by playing Clark Kent compared to Lex Luthor, he's just hampered by playing anything.

He's awful. I'm sort of scared that, instead of helping get the show renewed for a fourth season, Welling will succeed in getting it cancelled. :(

Although the real question is why the puppet Sinnerman wanted to die at all. Perhaps just fear of what could be worse?

Yeah, I do hope they're going to explain that.

[yourlibrarian]

I'll be interested to hear what you think. I quite enjoyed it and am looking forward to a further season.

[yourlibrarian]

Yes, that's my assumption as well. I'm not sure he is vulnerable around Chloe though, because perhaps like when Lucifer stabs him he does initially register a wound but he just heals super fast so he doesn't die.

I wouldn't worry about Welling affecting the ratings in a negative way. It's so easy to write out a guest character if they're not helping the show. Networks have even been known to drop virtually everyone but the central character (and have even done that when it's a dual star show) when they think retooling things will help. After this episode I'd say Ella is in bigger danger and I wouldn't be surprised if we lose more than just Sinnerman when the arc wraps up.

[ex_peasant441]

I'm still struggling to put my finger on what is causing the problem this season. I think it may be a combination of Welling distorting the characterisations and the choppy effect from the standalone episodes compared to the new ones. I do hope it picks up. Maybe now we have had the reveal about Pierce there will be a stronger supernatural streak, which is always when the show is at its best.

[ex_peasant441]

Maybe they're just borrowing from Supernatural in terms of Cain's storyline.

That was my immediate thought too. Lucifer never borrows directly from SPN but you can tell the writers have watched SPN and are aware of various ideas from it and it often feels like there is cultural crossover happening. Which is fine, I don't see that as a bad thing, it is how stories grow. And it is fun spotting the parallels and what they have done differently with similar ideas.

I would love to see a Lucifer version of Crowley!

[yourlibrarian]

I suspect shapinglight's take on it, that both sources are drawing from comics canon, is probably true. Certainly Castiel's first appearance struck everyone at the time as having been drawn from Constantine and they've appropriated a variety of bits since then. But given that they've been doing it for a while it does jump out at a viewer when Lucifer deals with the same characters and storylines.

[ex_peasant441]

I'm not really interested in exactly who thought of an idea first, because it surely isn't a competition. What I think is more fascinating is how these various strands of our common culture are drawing on each other and forming a new canon of mythology. For example the idea that Cain is immortal - which just feels right, and yet as far as I can find out it is a myth of relatively recent origin in various forms of fantasy fiction that may (or may not) have come over from Mormonism.

[yourlibrarian]

Oh now that is interesting, alright. And yes, I agree that it's a great opportunity to see a case study in how stories get told and evolve.

[shapinglight]

I hope so.

As for why the show is stuttering a little at the moment (though I still love it), there are several reasons - the Welling factor dragging everything down, the standalones, which are great but have a different tone to the rest of the season, the absence of Lesley-Ann Brandt, and the fact that Tricia Helfer is playing what is fundamentally a different character who is not such a good 'fit as Mum was. Lots of things.

[shapinglight]

Yes, that's my assumption as well. I'm not sure he is vulnerable around Chloe though, because perhaps like when Lucifer stabs him he does initially register a wound but he just heals super fast so he doesn't die.

Possibly, though I persist in believing that the whole reason for Pierce getting himself shot in episode 4 (was it?) was so he would put two and two together re: Chloe being 'special.' Which he actually said at the time.

I wouldn't worry about Welling affecting the ratings in a negative way.

I'll try not to. I really hope he won't stick around another season, though (assuming there is one).

I don't personally think Ella is in any danger. The character is pretty popular with fans.

[ex_peasant441]

Yes, I think you are right and it is a combination of little things rather than one big one (although the biggest probably is Welling). They haven't changed show runner or something have they? Because the contrast with S2 and the standalones is quite sharp.

[shapinglight]

Because the contrast with S2 and the standalones is quite sharp.

I disagree. I think the writing is just as sharp and funny as it ever was. The procedural stuff is often dull, but then it always has been.

And no, the writers/showrunners haven't changed.

ETA: Having said which, I realise you didn't necessarily say you thought the show was any worse (Welling aside), just different. I'm fannish enough to get all defensive, as you can see. ;)

Another difference this season is the fragmentation of the cast. Since the season arc is all about stuff going on at LAPD, it's been hard to find ways to fit Amenadiel and Linda into that scenario. There's not really any reason for them to come to police HQ, unfortunately.

[ex_peasant441]

No, I wasn't saying it was the writing being less snappy. It is the show as a whole that feels different somehow. Maybe just the loss of the momentum of the Mum storyline. Hopefully as the Cain story gets going I will feel that momentum back again.

And maybe it is me anyway - everything feels flat compared to Walking Dead at the moment because I am so immersed in that world. And I really don't want to harsh your squee so please assume it is just my present state of mind.

ETA: And yes, fragmenting the cast is never good for a show, although Amenadiel has always been a bit out on a limb but he feels even more so now Maize and Mum aren't around to help bridge the gap, that really only leaves Linda and Lucifer himself and they can't do it in every scenario.

[shapinglight]

Much though I don't want to see more of Welling, I'm interested to see whether Cain does in fact know who Lucifer really is. Seems likely, despite what he said in an earlier episode about not having a clue why Lucifer calls himself Lucifer.

I just wish the whole thing didn't depend on Welling. Stunt casting or whatever you want to call it can work. Tricia Helfer as Mum last season is proof of that.

[ex_peasant441]

I'm interested to see whether Cain does in fact know who Lucifer really is. Seems likely, despite what he said in an earlier episode about not having a clue why Lucifer calls himself Lucifer.

I think it is very likely. I'm guessing he is hoping Lucifer can help him lift the curse or kill him or something. Maybe the Sinnerman is somehow a split personality side of Pierce.

Stunt casting or whatever you want to call it can work. Tricia Helfer as Mum last season is proof of that.

This is very true! One reason that worked is because the character of Mum was in now way a mirror or copy of the lead. So often the stunt casting is of a rival love interest or enemy or whatever who the writers then fall in love with and allow to dominate. Welling def follows that second pattern unfortunately.

[shapinglight]

Unfortunately, I agree. :(

[tinny]

Interesting. I didn't even think about what Cain's motivations could be.

I am spoiled by tumblr as to what happens in the next two Cain episodes (but haven't seen them yet), so my current guess is that the fake Sinnerman also couldn't die. Or at least was a bit harder to kill that normal humans. So he wanted Lucifer to kill him. Not that that makes any sense?

I'm a bit weirded out by how much Trixie likes Charlotte. She's a really bad judge of character - probably because she spent too much time with Maze. ;)

Overall, I liked the episode okay - it was suspenseful, at least. And most of the good scenes were without Tom Welling, so it worked for me. (Although I found Maze standing around in high heels talking with Lucifer weird. They probably didn't want Leslie Ann-Brandt to move too much. Whatever.)

[shapinglight]

I'm glad you enjoyed it (mostly) when you got around to it.

It is odd to see Maze so static, I agree. Fortunately, as of episode 14 that's no longer the case.

Trixie's view of Charlotte may not be so 'off' as all that. Charlotte is trying to change after all - though there may well be some backsliding, I suppose.