(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Had a very headache-y day yesterday and still have eyestrain today so was really only online for long enough to squee over icafreak's transcript.

Haven't managed to answer comments yet (in fact, have only just read them). However, have been thinking about what Joss said, and how some people think it contradicts earlier things he's said about Spike, or that people (especially James Marsters) felt he thought about him.



I don't agree, I think- that there's a contradiction, I mean. I think it's perfectly possible that Joss has always felt this way about Spike - ie. that he liked the character more than Angel because of his subversive nature - and yet that he would still feel at times (as JM feels he does) that Spike was not only subversive as a character because it was his role to be but also subverted at times the stated themes of the show. Both things can be equally true, and can explain why it was that when Joss penned his 'showcase' episodes (like Hush and The Body), Spike's role was minimal or non-existent. It also explains why, in season 8, he's so chairy about using either vampire character (when it's been established that he could if he wanted to). They just don't really fit in the story he wants to tell (which I think is a great pity, but there you go).

To be honest, my main worry in recent times on this issue (trivial fandom-based worry, that is) was that, since Whedonesque is possibly the only fan site Joss looks at regularly, he'd come to the conclusion that a majority of fans disliked Spike, and especially disliked Spuffy, so much so that he'd begun to feel ashamed of that relationship and wanted to pretend it had never happened.

Hey, it's a fan thing. No one said it had to be rational.

Anyway, I feel fairly reassured now that this is not the case, not because Joss said anything positive about Spuffy (he didn't), but because the other positive things he said about Spike were so contrary to what the interviewer was trying to get him to say. As mrs_underhill said in her comment (which I haven't answered yet), the interviewer was going on about Spike being 'cool' and a 'bad boy' and an 'antihero', while Joss was basically saying he thought of him as a good man even when he was bad, and that he actively wanted a soul (yes! :air punches: because I know there are people who still dispute this, and the more writers/creators who stack up to confirm it the better). In other words, Joss 'gets' the Spike I love and isn't that interested in cool, 2-dimensional season 2 evil Spike, except in enjoying the contradictions between that character's badassery and his tenderness as a lover. I also loved what he said about Spike and Angel in season 5, of course.

That, too, was very typically Jossian - in that it suggests (as I think we've always known) that he loves Spike and Angel best when they're being the very opposite of cool, but are in fact more the grumpy old men in my icon). If Joss sees something cool (Evil Spike, Dark Knight Angel) he can't help wanting to bust the balloon of its self-importance. It's no wonder that some of the posters on IDW who like the characters to be cool and serious and able to beat anyone in a fight get all cross about AtS season 5.

I could witter all day, but I don't think my head will stand for it. Would advise anyone to read mrs_underhill's comments both on this post and on sueworld2003's. Very wise, Nata, as always.

Now I'm off to post my Welcome to the Nancy Tribe ficathon story.

ETA: should just say that I love cool, 2-dimensional (not that he ever really was) season 2 evil Spike too. But what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.

Comments

[ruuger]

*nods*

I've always thought that what Joss rginally had in mind for Spike was Pee Wee Herman's character in the original Buffy movie with a bit of proto-Simon/River thrown in. And with any other actor in the role, this probably would have been the case and Spike would have been killed after few episodes and that's it. Like you said, Spike was never in Joss' plans, not part of the original story he wanted to tell, so it can sometimes seem like he doesn't care about Spike.

what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.

Yes, this too. I've been watching X-Files lately, and have been thinking that without the redemption arc, TPTB would have either had to kill Spike off, or have him end up like Krycek on XF. Krycek was a cool character but lacked depth and his motivations especially towards the end of the show didn't make any sense because the writers didn't let him evolve beyond the cool bad guy role.

[shapinglight]

I've never seen the original Buffy movie so I can't comment on that, but I know what you mean about Krycek. Was most disappointed in what happened with him. He seemed to be about to get genuine depth in season 4 (was it?) with the black oil story. Then it all got spoilt.

Like you said, Spike was never in Joss' plans, not part of the original story he wanted to tell, so it can sometimes seem like he doesn't care about Spike.

I think Joss is very good at using the cards he's dealt. Hence, he must have realised pretty early on that JM as Spike was too good to just get rid of. Likewise, from what I understand, he never wanted the Angel character in the show, but had it more or less foisted on him. Yet he did wonders with Angel too.

[ex_peasant441]

should just say that I love cool, 2-dimensional (not that he ever really was) season 2 evil Spike too. But what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.
Yes. I think all the later stuff would have been much weaker if we hadn't had Season 2 Spike to start with. He needs to have come from somewhere cool and competent and evil, otherwise what is all the fuss about. A vamp like Harmony (or one who worked in a suck-house or the runty popcorn type ones in Crush) who fell in love with Buffy and wanted a soul would not be such a big surprise.

I'm pleased you are pleased. When I saw Sue's post I thought 'can't wait until shapinglight hears about this!'

What is this DVD and where can we get it?

ETA: sorry about your headache. Hope it is completely gone now.

[shapinglight]

He needs to have come from somewhere cool and competent and evil, otherwise what is all the fuss about.

Yes, exactly. Plus, you can't deconstruct something that hasn't ever been constructed.

The DVD is available on Amazon.com. In fact, the bloke who interviewed Joss has come on to icafreak's post and linked to it.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I think you have a very good point, about the being cool thing. The cool thing about Joss' work is that he manages to mix comedy and tragedy to perfection and that his characters continue to evolve and surprise, without losing their personality.

Joss has a thing for making total fools out of his shining heroes and for making tragic heroes out of the characters that started out as comic relieve (see Wesley, Cordelia or Anya). Under this light, Spike is a masterpiece.

Might even be the same with Spuffy. I doubt Joss would be very interested in giving them a happily ever after, or defending them as the perfect couple to the fans, not when their relationship is so much more twisted,multilayered and thus interesting than any other on the show. He gave them the most mean and heartbreaking moment in all of the grand finale after all, I tend to think that counts as "like" in his book.

[shapinglight]

Under this light, Spike is a masterpiece.

Yes, certainly, or one of them. Wesley would be another.

I agree with you that it's highly unlikely Joss has any interest in giving Spuffy a happy ending, or Bangel either. Like you say, he feels he's given both couples the best story he could already, even if it didn't turn out the way the 'shippers wanted.

[yourlibrarian]

But what I love most about him is that he was allowed to change and grow.

And wouldn't it have been a huge loss if he hadn't. I always appreciated Joss's commitment to developing characters even if I wasn't always thrilled about the directions they went in.

[shapinglight]

I always appreciated Joss's commitment to developing characters even if I wasn't always thrilled about the directions they went in.

I agree, though like you, there are things I wish Joss hadn't done.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Horray for character arcs!!

It's even better when they let main characters have them. (er, not that Spike = arc of the awesome, but he's alway suffered being secondary)

Episodic TV, even shows with 'overaching plots' like soap-operas, seems to be wedded to the idea of unchanging character. People love the characters, the characters must not change. In fact, if at all possible, everything must be returned to ground-state by the end of each weekly episode.

Not so much anymore, and I think it's because audiences are more sophisticated - by which I mean have watched more TV - and are tired of the predictability of a 'ground state'. So I suppose I just invalidated my own gripe - but I think the history of this is with us.

One thing I notice about fanfiction - it has certain common phenomena. Favorite characters are advanced. Verbal ticks are exagerated. (Such as in that epic Fanfic, Phantom Menance, were Yoda's dialect turns into a painful code-hash of Direct Object - adjective - Noun - Verb. "Speaks Backward Yoda Does." I digress! But really, one of these days I'm going to write my epic "Episodes 1-3 are fanfic" treatise.)

These phenomena I don't mean as derogatory - actually they speak of deep, human needs. And another of the "ticks" of fanfiction is the solidification of character. This, just like in episodic TV - a more starkly outlined character that doesn't change. Part of it may be fear of crossing cannon's lines, part of it is I think a desire for changelessness.

(Mind you I will now invalidate that argument because the GOOD fanfic writers - of which you are one as is any close friend listening *cough* - do "grow" characters beyond what was displayed in cannon and explore all the nuances of human experience that I expect in any writing genre.)

(how the heck did this mini rant happen?)

[shapinglight]

Horray for character arcs!!

I agree. And I know what you mean about episodic TV and the seeming terror of character development that some showrunners seem to have. That's why I always preferred Babylon 5 to Star Trek, where every episode ended with some kind of reset.

Favorite characters are advanced. Verbal ticks are exagerated.

This is all too true. I know I'm as guilty as anyone. I know that I write Spike too British as well, because that's how I want him to be. Yeah, fandom ticks.

And you are of course right that stories where the characters change drastically over time to how they were in canon are few and far between.

And don't worry about the mini rant. It's interesting. In fact, why don't you do a post on your LJ?

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

*giggle* You realize this was supposed to be a "Me too!" comment. But then I felt like I had to have some substance beside that, and got carried away.

Maybe I will make a rant post. Hrm.... tasty tasty rants!

[shapinglight]

But then I felt like I had to have some substance beside that, and got carried away.

Oh yes. Don't worry.

[kikimay]

I think that, in so many ways, Spike created himself. His characterization trascends both author and actor. He's so rich not only because Joss, but also because writers like Espenson, Noxon etc found him attractive in many ways. I think that for Joss Spike was a surprise so, years after the end of the show, he can tell that he loves him: because Spike surbverted *his* expectations first.
Also, I think that he was very important, not just as a mirror for Angel, but also as a shadow-self for Buffy and, in Season 6, personification of her depression.
Spike's his rich even in this aspect! *Yes, I love him*

In one of the latest interview with Katie Lucas, Joss said that Spike/Buffy is his favourite pairing. (Or, at least, he thinks that Spuffy works better then Briley or Bangel)
That doesn't necessary means anything, and I agree with: Bangel and Spuffy were different relationship and Joss gave them their ending. But, maybe, if he want to talk about Buffy more, he can use a partner to show the slayer becoming cookies.

[shapinglight]

I agree that Spike grew organically from his original creation. Characters like that are lightning in a bottle for TV writers, I think, but of course depend on the right actor playing them.

And it's of course true that just because Joss said he prefers Spuffy to Bangel and Briley doesn't mean Buffy will end up with Spike.

[kikimay]

Absolutely! I don't know if Joss ever let the slayer be happy with a man (But I still hope so! Especially since he decided to return in her universe with the comics)

James' ability to portray every aspect of Spike was crucial, I think. He really made the character shine. Also, tons of sex-appeal. >*

[shapinglight]

Yes, he had chemistry with pretty much everyone. :)