(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Okay, because work is boring and I’m miffed about not getting to watch the last series of BSG yet, what with next week’s TV books going on and on about how good it is etc, I thought I’d make a post about BtVS, just to be different.



One thing no one new to the fandom could help noticing is that season 7 comes in for a lot of stick. Lots and lots of people don’t like it for various reasons. In fact, with one representative of one of the extremist factions of fans, it seems to have become a major article of ‘faith’ that during the last two seasons of the show, the other writers formed a conspiracy to ‘ruin’ it behind Joss’s back, and that Joss himself had nothing whatsoever to do with seasons 6&7 (presumably, he was tied up and gagged in a closet while Marti Noxon, urged on by rabid Spike fans, wrote ransom demands to his family with one hand while penning show-trashing episodes with the other).

Nonsense like that aside, as I said, many people don’t like season 7, so what I wondered is, if you could have written the season, what would you have done differently?

I think, to be fair, suggestions have to conform to the restrictions of character and RL that Joss was faced with at the end of season 6. For instance, you can’t decide arbitrarily that Tara never died or that Spike didn’t get his soul back because it’s established that both those things happened in season 6. Nor can you write Spike out of season 7 after only one episode just because you don’t like him. You have to remember that JM had signed a contract for 22 episodes. Similarly, you have to take on board that SMG had said she didn’t want to do another season, making 7 the final one, that ASH had only a limited number of episodes and that if DB did make a guest appearance, it was only going to be a cameo, what with AtS being on a different network.

It also seems only right that Joss’s seasonal/end of show theme of female empowerment should still be the same, so if your big beef is with the Potentials, another way has to be found to incorporate the female empowerment theme into the story or to make the Potentials more palatable. Or something.

I have plenty of nit-picks about season 7 myself, but overall I like it. I think if I was going to change anything, it would revolve around the annoying Guardian – talk about lame dea ex machina!- who I would either write out altogether or make a very different character and introduce somewhat earlier (or possibly only in Slayer dreams), Caleb, who I loathe with a fiery passion and who I would get rid of completely, finding some other way for the First Evil to be more physically menacing, and Andrew, who I would probably replace with Jonathan, because I like him more.

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"what would you have done differently?"

Got rid of the bloody potentials!! Stupid, stupid idea that weakened the series, and now the bloody comics too! :0

Got a different big bad (The First was just so weak!) and brought Caleab in earlier.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I don't really have that much of a beef about Season Seven myself, until the final episode.

Forgoing my rant about the infamously stupid "Cookie Dough" speech. The final battle is my biggest disappointment

No not that Spike sacrificed himself to save the world, or that Anya only got about a second to do her death scene. It was the battle itself.

It took Buffy two episodes to defeat one Urbavamp, while in this one they were dispached right left and center, Faith even throwing off two, and fighting another when she jumped to her feet. Not one of the scoobies was hurt, not even a scratch. Potentials survived, including Rona, with a broken arm.

Then there was Buffy, who was, supposedly mortally injured to a wound to the gut, and had he clothes all bloody. I can take that she made a remarkable recovery, but so did her clothes.

These things all bugged me. I guess they still do!

Sorry for the rant!

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. *g*

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I think I'd have had fewer Potentials, but made them stronger - or else had more of them, and made them more like a real army and less like a bunch of little girls at an exercise class.
It always seems to be the case - in every series, including Star Trek and B5 - that the enemy you thought was overwhelming eventually becomes much more easy to defeat: I think it's a mistake when they do that, but they do.
I loathe Caleb too, but he is the bad guy: we're supposed to loathe him, I guess.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Keep the Potentials but cut their screen time to the bare minimum; most people who had invested six Seasons wanted to find out about Xander and Anya, Dawn, Willow and, of course, Spike and Buffy. They should have addressed Xander leaving Anya at the altar and the effect that had on her turning back to vengeance (Yeah, I know - "Selfless" - but there could have been more); Willow coming back from the dark side and less flirting around with Kennedy; Dawn having an actual story besides the little bits of "Lessons" and other episodes; more of Spike and Buffy actually talking about the previous year.

I'm with you on removing the Guardian, Caleb and far less Andrew.

And for goodness sake, make the First more "evil". Buffy was right about him/it/whatever - all talk and no action.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Thank You Sue *g*

[shapinglight]

Got rid of the bloody potentials!! Stupid, stupid idea that weakened the series, and now the bloody comics too! :0

I agree that for the most part they're very hateable, but how would you have done the whole female empowerment thing without them?

I can't see another way myself, but I'm prepared to accept that this is down to my lack of imagination rather than that there's no other way to do it.

And nooo! to more Caleb. It was bad enough having that character for five episodes. I couldn't have stood more. I'm sure the First could have been made more menacing in some other way. For instance, that whole thing with Spike's blood and the seal could have been setting up a way for the FE to become corporeal.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I appreciate there are a lot of things wrong with the Chosen battle, and no amount of fanwanking will make them make sense. You don't mind the other things in the season that annoy people, then?

It's always nice to find someone else who is mostly happy with it.

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

Without giving this too much thought, I think I would have maybe not changed too much of the plot stuff (except maybe to tighten it up so there weren't so many glaring holes in it [see comments above]). What I would have done is make sure the characters were written better and more consistently.

As a Giles fan, I was horrified at how he was changed from the superhero of 'Grave', to the ineffectual twerp who sided against Buffy. I don't think that was true to character and I therefore found it upsetting. The Potentials could have been cast with actresses who could act properly; and written less like an episode of 90210. Xander and Dawn shouldn't have been forgotten and Angel should have stayed in LA. Willow's affair with (oh god, I've forgotten the potentials name) was annoying and should have been axed for more Spuffy or Xander and Anya.

I agree with you about Andrew; but you know that *g*

[liliaeth]

Uhm, let's see, take out the nerds, period. Maybe one episode with Jonathan and Andrew in an ep focusing on Willow's guilt over her murder of Warren and her mindrape of Tara in s6. But they'd either die in that ep, or leave the city never to be seen again.

Change the concept of the guardians and make them actually useful. Instead of having her be a deus ex machina who pretty much did nothing to help in any way whatsoever, have them show up as a rival group to the Watchers, possibly show that rivalry as they fight over who gets control over the Slayers and then have Buffy end up deciding she won't let the potentials be controlled by either side. That the girls should have the right to control themselves, not have their life run by others, whether they be men or women.

Bring in Caleb earlier in the season instead of the Turok Han and keep the Turok Han for later in the season as the bigger threat. Possibly have Caleb turn in the uber-powerful version of the Turok Han once Buffy's killed him.

Give more personality to the potentials and have them interact both with each other and the scoobies. Don't just show them in group scenes. Possibly create a rivalry over Xander between Anya and one of the potentials as a sub-thread. Have Kennedy interested in Willow, but don't just force her on the viewers.

Show a friendship developing between Xander and Spike. With Xander growing up and accepting that things aren't black and white. And possibly finally and completely getting over his crush on, and possessiveness over Buffy.

Show a fight between Giles and one of the female guardians, show what Giles is doing while he isn't in Sunnydale.

Explain what caused the First to show up now, don't just say it's because Buffy's back alive, expand on it. Possibly bring in the fact that Buffy just scored a major victory with getting a vampire to fight to regain his soul. Make a huge thing of this, since it should have been.

Show Dawn deciding she wants to be a watcher and why. Possibly show some friendships between her and some of the potentials.

Deal with Faith's rape/murder attempt on Xander from s3, give them some scenes together.

Have Buffy be smarter in the final fight, have everyone working together in a way that makes sense, and that makes best use of each characters abilities.

Have the potentials be of many ages, not just teenagers, but kids and adults as well. (at the very least show some adults gaining their abilities during the slayer spell)
Do the slayer spell before you head into the trap, or at least explain that the danger is needed to activate the spell. Show some damn sense.

Don't have regular people like Giles, Anya, Dawn or Xander killing Turok Han, without additional aid. (it would be ok if Giles or Anya used magic, or if Xander and Dawn had machinery or rocket guns.)

Once again, show interaction and inclusiveness with all the characters. And remove the sense that the core four is somehow more important than the other main characters.

Oh yes, give more signs of the apocalypse, you know, reasons as to why the people of Sunnydale would finally be running scared, if they've never done so before. Give some more heft to the threat of the First.

And oh yes, have Buffy talk about her relationship to Spike, admit that she wasn't an innocent in it. Have her tell Dawn about the time she beat him up when all he tried to do was help her. Have her admit that she was hurting him too.

And last but not least. If Angel has to show up, let him talk to Spike and no kissing between him and Buffy. (also no talk of cookie dough)

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Mostly happy. Yes they could've dealt more with the fall out from Season Six, but they knew it was the series final, and had time constrants. Everybody looking at their own navel wouldn't have been what the show was about.

Yep, mostly happy with it to be honest.

[shapinglight]

I think I'd have had fewer Potentials, but made them stronger - or else had more of them, and made them more like a real army and less like a bunch of little girls at an exercise class.

I like that. I'm not sure which I would have gone with. Personally, I'd prefer fewer and stronger, but that would of course mean fleshing them out more as characters, which, as Petzi notes below, would mean they were still taking screen time away from established characters that the audience wanted to see bookended, as it were.

On the other hand, a large, amorphous army might seem too impersonal. I think I would definitely go with fewer and stronger. If we could have just had Kennedy, Amanda, Rona and Vi that would probably have been better.

It always seems to be the case - in every series, including Star Trek and B5 - that the enemy you thought was overwhelming eventually becomes much more easy to defeat: I think it's a mistake when they do that, but they do.

Yes, it's true that BtVS is hardly the first show to do this. It's a pity, though. And Caleb is so loathesome IMO that what we're supposed to think of him doesn't matter at all. I just want him gone and replaced by something/someone better. I'd have loved the FE to become corporeal and still appear as loads of dead people.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

It's all very simple, really. Just read c_woodhaven's A Life Less Ordinary which she just started posting yesterday. A whole new Season 7, with nary a trace of Caleb, and reworking of some other characters, (Kennedy and Wood among them) and a focus on the rebuilding of Xander. Very NC17. Plus, slasheriffic!

Personally, I'm not that bothered by Season 7, overall, though it is rather a unrelenting downer. I was completely pumped by the finale, and watched and rewatched it until all the plot holes loomed too large and I had to give it a rest. So, yes, there are plenty of nits to pick, but I'm not a hater.

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I've never really understood why people hate S7 so much. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it's one of my favourite seasons, along with S5 and S6.

I'd keep the potentials, but give them much less screen time, as I did like the idea behind them. I agree with you about the Gauardian, and while I don't mind Andrew, I'd have preferred Jonathan. I wouldn't change the Spike/Buffy storyline as such, but more screen time would have been nice (they really didn't get that much, no matter what some people say}.

Of course, there are things I'd like to change about S7 (and probably every other season, if I'm honest), but on the whole I was happy with what we got. :)

Sorry about the edited comments. The "d" on my keyboard keeps sticking.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

I don't know what I would change, really. But as you say, overall I liked it. I even liked the potentials, and I know alot of people hate them. :-P Evolution babe. The potentials and all that were the evolution of the slayer-line. Or so I see it. :-)

[shapinglight]

And for goodness sake, make the First more "evil". Buffy was right about him/it/whatever - all talk and no action.

Yes, even a non-corporeal FE could have lived up to the menace of the first half of season a bit better, but I favour corporealising it. It could still have taken the forms of dead people that Buffy knew, though of course that probably brings us slap bang against budget restraints or something (I think I remember reading that ME couldn't afford to bring back the whole parade of villains from Lessons again), because that would have been lots of fun.

And yes, a little more talking among the main protagonists would have been good, though personally I think where Spike and Buffy were concerned, they got it about right.

[shapinglight]

Everybody looking at their own navel wouldn't have been what the show was about.

I agree. I also think that Spike and Buffy at least dealt with their issues as much as was reasonable. There could have been more with Xander and Anya, though.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

No dame ex machina "guardian", that's for double sure.

The potentials - gah. I dunno what I would have done differently - have more of them? Fewer of them? More varied?
Developed them more? They just seemed like a slew of girlscouts who wandered on set accidentally.

Of course, I have a big peeve about the general upper-classedness of the show (Money is never a problem unless it's a plot point) and I'd have liked to have seen maybe more of the potentails be minorities, low-income, what have you.

Maybe have the potentials deal better with sudden barracks living than Buffy and company.

I just.. didn't like the whole first evil plot. I think you're right, the first evil wasn't menacing enough, and suffered greatly from Bad Guy Syndrome - where in hindsight 90% of the First Evils actions make no sense, have no cohesive plan, are just the chaotic jumble of "What will keep the heroes busy this week?"

Oh, and I'd get rid of the Weekly Rape Reminders and move the fuck on.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

On the whole, I pretty much liked S7. While it's true that I view a lot of it as an attempt to redeem the fuckupedness of the latter half of S6, there are some damn good episodes in the last season. Conversations with Dead People and Potential to name just two.

I would have liked to have seen more fallout from S6-more of Anya and Xander's storyline, more of Dawn's. Would have liked it had Willow been stronger and not been as afraid to use magic (I liked her appearance on "Angel" better than Btvs that year). Perhaps they should have had less Potentials to deal with.

I liked Robin Wood, loved that Nikki's backstory was expanded. I'm torn as to whether or not I think Giles would have conspired with Wood against Spike. While I don't believe it was OOC for Giles, it would have made more sense (in my not so humble opinion) if it had been Xander.

And like hello_spikey, I could have done without the Weekly Rape Reminders and Buffy saying "He has a soul now." every freaking other minute.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I,m not so much into big changes but instead of pointless plot in "Him", I'd like to see some clarifications-fill in blanks (how Spike's jacket got into basement, what Buffy wrote to Spike in that letter)

And replace the Buffy/Angel kiss and talk about the future with some Spike/Angel talk about soul

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec - that looks intriguing.

I'd have fewer potentials in S7. Perhaps three?

The First being more... interesting would have been great.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think I would have to pretty much change the theme of the season. In a lot of ways, with heading back to high school along with a slew of young characters, they seemed to be trying to recapture the past in some ways. They also seemed to think that they could try to return Buffy, Willow, and Xander to their early season personalities on the surface but that also required mostly sweeping their actions in Season 6 under the carpet as quickly as possible. All of those things sapped momentum out of the story and threw a road block in with a ton of near nameless potentials.

Instead of trying to reconnect with the past, the 'lesson' should have been that you really cannot go back. Either you learn from your past, move forward and grow or you stagnate and die. That would have lead to a more natural conclusion to a series initially about growing up. It could have then addressed more character issues such as Willow's culpability for her actions in Season 6 as well as her grief, learning to accept both. Having Xander face his control issues and family issues (which would have dealt with his Anya and Buffy issues). Having Buffy realizing that she'd been running in emotional place since her resurrection (and romantically since she killed Angelus). And it would have been useful in Spike's story if we return to the old theories of the soulless being stuck emotionally in the issues when they were vamped versus acquiring a soul kicking in the ability to grow again. t

The First's ability to imitate people from their pasts then would have been given a real purpose and power, and the "From beneath you it devours" line would also have made sense. It also would have given all the primary characters issues to address and NOT allowed the show to turn blind eyes to the abyssmal behavior exhibited by the core four and everyone but Tara in Season 6. As it was, only Anya and Spike evolved in any significant way during the season (and even that wasn't as much of a payoff as we would have wished) while almost completely ignoring Willow, Xander's, and Buffy's lingering baggage. There was too much effort to recapture and too little in evolving.

Re: Female empowerment, it's part and parcel of self-empowerment. If you grow up, realize your failures and where you can grow, then you have empowered yourself be you female, male, witch, vengeance demon, or vampire.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I mostly like season 7 -- so I'd keep the major elements. I like the idea of the First Evil; I like the end result being an army of slayers; and I like the Spike/Buffy arc.

But the season is just rife with plot holes and poor execution. What was the First Evil's plan? It's never clear. More pay-off to the connection between the First Evil and Buffy's resurrection (or drop that idea). Lay down some groundwork for the scythe-ex-machina, and while you're at it look at a book of farm implements and realize that this thing is not a scythe. Toss the "is Giles the First" plotline, or pay it off by having the First take the form of another trusted formerly dead character and actually causing some havoc. It's a cool idea, but the execution is totally stinker.

Deal with the OOC moments created by giving characters false choices. Giles didn't have to choose between doing nothing and going along with Robin. There are lots of things in between that could have been done first. The Scoobies' choice was not between keeping Buffy as a leader and blind-siding her with an eviction notice. In both cases, the dramatic need to distance Buffy from them is undermined by the weirdness of behavior that it requires.

If we're going to flash back to SR, let's have a flash back to DT. There's plenty of baggage to go around.

Repair the Willow arc of season 6 by having her recognize that it wasn't abuse of magic that was the whole problem, but there are some serious control issues that go along with it. (Speaking as one who still thinks it's kind of disgusting that ME had Tara go back to the woman who had played around with her memories -- which is a pretty close parallel to using a date rape drug on your girlfriend).

Keep Anya dead in Selfless and do the fall out from that. If she must be kept alive, give her some arc.

If I could only pick one it would be think harder about the First Evil's plan, and create deeper resonance with Buffy's overall story. This is the final Big Villain. It should have meant something. Oh, and Caleb should just be gone. Not even worth mentioning. If you need to give Fillion a job, bring him in as Mal and do something creative with that.

[deird1]

I'd keep it the same - season 7 rocks.

I agree with you about bringing the Guardian in a lot earlier, though.


In fact, with one representative of one of the extremist factions of fans, it seems to have become a major article of ‘faith’ that during the last two seasons of the show, the other writers formed a conspiracy to ‘ruin’ it behind Joss’s back, and that Joss himself had nothing whatsoever to do with seasons 6&7 (presumably, he was tied up and gagged in a closet while Marti Noxon, urged on by rabid Spike fans, wrote ransom demands to his family with one hand while penning show-trashing episodes with the other).

*snorts* That about sums it up.

Hmm... Really must try writing that later-season-writers RPF I've got in my brain...

[shapinglight]

I agree with you about Andrew; but you know that *g*

Heh! Oh yes!

I think the major problem with Giles in season 7 was this stupid idea they had to try and make out that he was the First Evil in disguise for I don't know how many episodes. It was a lame idea to start with and when it was definitely shown that he wasn't the FE, we were left with the knowledge that Real Giles had said all these things to Buffy that were calculated to undermine her. I really don't see what the point of all that was and it they'd ditched that I wouldn't really have too much to complain about re: Giles's arc, except for in LMPTM, where he got lumbered with the role of Agent of Patriarchal Oppression just for one episode.

Agree that the actresses playing the Potentials could have been an awful lot better and that Kennedy (that was her name) got way too much screen time because Joss wanted to give Willow a happy ending. Mainly, I agree with you, though, the problem wasn't the plot as such but that there were too many glaring holes in it.