(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Okay, because work is boring and I’m miffed about not getting to watch the last series of BSG yet, what with next week’s TV books going on and on about how good it is etc, I thought I’d make a post about BtVS, just to be different.



One thing no one new to the fandom could help noticing is that season 7 comes in for a lot of stick. Lots and lots of people don’t like it for various reasons. In fact, with one representative of one of the extremist factions of fans, it seems to have become a major article of ‘faith’ that during the last two seasons of the show, the other writers formed a conspiracy to ‘ruin’ it behind Joss’s back, and that Joss himself had nothing whatsoever to do with seasons 6&7 (presumably, he was tied up and gagged in a closet while Marti Noxon, urged on by rabid Spike fans, wrote ransom demands to his family with one hand while penning show-trashing episodes with the other).

Nonsense like that aside, as I said, many people don’t like season 7, so what I wondered is, if you could have written the season, what would you have done differently?

I think, to be fair, suggestions have to conform to the restrictions of character and RL that Joss was faced with at the end of season 6. For instance, you can’t decide arbitrarily that Tara never died or that Spike didn’t get his soul back because it’s established that both those things happened in season 6. Nor can you write Spike out of season 7 after only one episode just because you don’t like him. You have to remember that JM had signed a contract for 22 episodes. Similarly, you have to take on board that SMG had said she didn’t want to do another season, making 7 the final one, that ASH had only a limited number of episodes and that if DB did make a guest appearance, it was only going to be a cameo, what with AtS being on a different network.

It also seems only right that Joss’s seasonal/end of show theme of female empowerment should still be the same, so if your big beef is with the Potentials, another way has to be found to incorporate the female empowerment theme into the story or to make the Potentials more palatable. Or something.

I have plenty of nit-picks about season 7 myself, but overall I like it. I think if I was going to change anything, it would revolve around the annoying Guardian – talk about lame dea ex machina!- who I would either write out altogether or make a very different character and introduce somewhat earlier (or possibly only in Slayer dreams), Caleb, who I loathe with a fiery passion and who I would get rid of completely, finding some other way for the First Evil to be more physically menacing, and Andrew, who I would probably replace with Jonathan, because I like him more.

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"what would you have done differently?"

Got rid of the bloody potentials!! Stupid, stupid idea that weakened the series, and now the bloody comics too! :0

Got a different big bad (The First was just so weak!) and brought Caleab in earlier.

[shapinglight]

Got rid of the bloody potentials!! Stupid, stupid idea that weakened the series, and now the bloody comics too! :0

I agree that for the most part they're very hateable, but how would you have done the whole female empowerment thing without them?

I can't see another way myself, but I'm prepared to accept that this is down to my lack of imagination rather than that there's no other way to do it.

And nooo! to more Caleb. It was bad enough having that character for five episodes. I couldn't have stood more. I'm sure the First could have been made more menacing in some other way. For instance, that whole thing with Spike's blood and the seal could have been setting up a way for the FE to become corporeal.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I don't really have that much of a beef about Season Seven myself, until the final episode.

Forgoing my rant about the infamously stupid "Cookie Dough" speech. The final battle is my biggest disappointment

No not that Spike sacrificed himself to save the world, or that Anya only got about a second to do her death scene. It was the battle itself.

It took Buffy two episodes to defeat one Urbavamp, while in this one they were dispached right left and center, Faith even throwing off two, and fighting another when she jumped to her feet. Not one of the scoobies was hurt, not even a scratch. Potentials survived, including Rona, with a broken arm.

Then there was Buffy, who was, supposedly mortally injured to a wound to the gut, and had he clothes all bloody. I can take that she made a remarkable recovery, but so did her clothes.

These things all bugged me. I guess they still do!

Sorry for the rant!

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. *g*

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I think I'd have had fewer Potentials, but made them stronger - or else had more of them, and made them more like a real army and less like a bunch of little girls at an exercise class.
It always seems to be the case - in every series, including Star Trek and B5 - that the enemy you thought was overwhelming eventually becomes much more easy to defeat: I think it's a mistake when they do that, but they do.
I loathe Caleb too, but he is the bad guy: we're supposed to loathe him, I guess.

[shapinglight]

I think I'd have had fewer Potentials, but made them stronger - or else had more of them, and made them more like a real army and less like a bunch of little girls at an exercise class.

I like that. I'm not sure which I would have gone with. Personally, I'd prefer fewer and stronger, but that would of course mean fleshing them out more as characters, which, as Petzi notes below, would mean they were still taking screen time away from established characters that the audience wanted to see bookended, as it were.

On the other hand, a large, amorphous army might seem too impersonal. I think I would definitely go with fewer and stronger. If we could have just had Kennedy, Amanda, Rona and Vi that would probably have been better.

It always seems to be the case - in every series, including Star Trek and B5 - that the enemy you thought was overwhelming eventually becomes much more easy to defeat: I think it's a mistake when they do that, but they do.

Yes, it's true that BtVS is hardly the first show to do this. It's a pity, though. And Caleb is so loathesome IMO that what we're supposed to think of him doesn't matter at all. I just want him gone and replaced by something/someone better. I'd have loved the FE to become corporeal and still appear as loads of dead people.

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Keep the Potentials but cut their screen time to the bare minimum; most people who had invested six Seasons wanted to find out about Xander and Anya, Dawn, Willow and, of course, Spike and Buffy. They should have addressed Xander leaving Anya at the altar and the effect that had on her turning back to vengeance (Yeah, I know - "Selfless" - but there could have been more); Willow coming back from the dark side and less flirting around with Kennedy; Dawn having an actual story besides the little bits of "Lessons" and other episodes; more of Spike and Buffy actually talking about the previous year.

I'm with you on removing the Guardian, Caleb and far less Andrew.

And for goodness sake, make the First more "evil". Buffy was right about him/it/whatever - all talk and no action.

[shapinglight]

And for goodness sake, make the First more "evil". Buffy was right about him/it/whatever - all talk and no action.

Yes, even a non-corporeal FE could have lived up to the menace of the first half of season a bit better, but I favour corporealising it. It could still have taken the forms of dead people that Buffy knew, though of course that probably brings us slap bang against budget restraints or something (I think I remember reading that ME couldn't afford to bring back the whole parade of villains from Lessons again), because that would have been lots of fun.

And yes, a little more talking among the main protagonists would have been good, though personally I think where Spike and Buffy were concerned, they got it about right.

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

Without giving this too much thought, I think I would have maybe not changed too much of the plot stuff (except maybe to tighten it up so there weren't so many glaring holes in it [see comments above]). What I would have done is make sure the characters were written better and more consistently.

As a Giles fan, I was horrified at how he was changed from the superhero of 'Grave', to the ineffectual twerp who sided against Buffy. I don't think that was true to character and I therefore found it upsetting. The Potentials could have been cast with actresses who could act properly; and written less like an episode of 90210. Xander and Dawn shouldn't have been forgotten and Angel should have stayed in LA. Willow's affair with (oh god, I've forgotten the potentials name) was annoying and should have been axed for more Spuffy or Xander and Anya.

I agree with you about Andrew; but you know that *g*

[shapinglight]

I agree with you about Andrew; but you know that *g*

Heh! Oh yes!

I think the major problem with Giles in season 7 was this stupid idea they had to try and make out that he was the First Evil in disguise for I don't know how many episodes. It was a lame idea to start with and when it was definitely shown that he wasn't the FE, we were left with the knowledge that Real Giles had said all these things to Buffy that were calculated to undermine her. I really don't see what the point of all that was and it they'd ditched that I wouldn't really have too much to complain about re: Giles's arc, except for in LMPTM, where he got lumbered with the role of Agent of Patriarchal Oppression just for one episode.

Agree that the actresses playing the Potentials could have been an awful lot better and that Kennedy (that was her name) got way too much screen time because Joss wanted to give Willow a happy ending. Mainly, I agree with you, though, the problem wasn't the plot as such but that there were too many glaring holes in it.

[liliaeth]

Uhm, let's see, take out the nerds, period. Maybe one episode with Jonathan and Andrew in an ep focusing on Willow's guilt over her murder of Warren and her mindrape of Tara in s6. But they'd either die in that ep, or leave the city never to be seen again.

Change the concept of the guardians and make them actually useful. Instead of having her be a deus ex machina who pretty much did nothing to help in any way whatsoever, have them show up as a rival group to the Watchers, possibly show that rivalry as they fight over who gets control over the Slayers and then have Buffy end up deciding she won't let the potentials be controlled by either side. That the girls should have the right to control themselves, not have their life run by others, whether they be men or women.

Bring in Caleb earlier in the season instead of the Turok Han and keep the Turok Han for later in the season as the bigger threat. Possibly have Caleb turn in the uber-powerful version of the Turok Han once Buffy's killed him.

Give more personality to the potentials and have them interact both with each other and the scoobies. Don't just show them in group scenes. Possibly create a rivalry over Xander between Anya and one of the potentials as a sub-thread. Have Kennedy interested in Willow, but don't just force her on the viewers.

Show a friendship developing between Xander and Spike. With Xander growing up and accepting that things aren't black and white. And possibly finally and completely getting over his crush on, and possessiveness over Buffy.

Show a fight between Giles and one of the female guardians, show what Giles is doing while he isn't in Sunnydale.

Explain what caused the First to show up now, don't just say it's because Buffy's back alive, expand on it. Possibly bring in the fact that Buffy just scored a major victory with getting a vampire to fight to regain his soul. Make a huge thing of this, since it should have been.

Show Dawn deciding she wants to be a watcher and why. Possibly show some friendships between her and some of the potentials.

Deal with Faith's rape/murder attempt on Xander from s3, give them some scenes together.

Have Buffy be smarter in the final fight, have everyone working together in a way that makes sense, and that makes best use of each characters abilities.

Have the potentials be of many ages, not just teenagers, but kids and adults as well. (at the very least show some adults gaining their abilities during the slayer spell)
Do the slayer spell before you head into the trap, or at least explain that the danger is needed to activate the spell. Show some damn sense.

Don't have regular people like Giles, Anya, Dawn or Xander killing Turok Han, without additional aid. (it would be ok if Giles or Anya used magic, or if Xander and Dawn had machinery or rocket guns.)

Once again, show interaction and inclusiveness with all the characters. And remove the sense that the core four is somehow more important than the other main characters.

Oh yes, give more signs of the apocalypse, you know, reasons as to why the people of Sunnydale would finally be running scared, if they've never done so before. Give some more heft to the threat of the First.

And oh yes, have Buffy talk about her relationship to Spike, admit that she wasn't an innocent in it. Have her tell Dawn about the time she beat him up when all he tried to do was help her. Have her admit that she was hurting him too.

And last but not least. If Angel has to show up, let him talk to Spike and no kissing between him and Buffy. (also no talk of cookie dough)

[shapinglight]

Blimey, that's a lot of points. I probably won't address all of them, but there are some things on your list I have to admit I disagree with, likewise some with which I agree.

I quite like your idea about the Guardian, though I don't see Joss doing the tug of war thing between the Guardians and the Watchers, as I think he was trying to show female power as wholly positive, though if that's so the Guardian is even more crap unfortunately. I think the character could have worked as a dream figure, like the First Slayer. In fact, it's a pity Joss didn't just bring back the First Slayer.

If I was going to give myself a veto over any idea that anyone in this thread had it would for more Caleb and earlier. Cannot stand that character. I would never have introduced him in the first place.

I do like the idea of showing what Giles was doing when he wasn't in Sunnydale, though we did see snippets. I doubt we would ever have got more, even if it hadn't been the last season.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

It's all very simple, really. Just read c_woodhaven's A Life Less Ordinary which she just started posting yesterday. A whole new Season 7, with nary a trace of Caleb, and reworking of some other characters, (Kennedy and Wood among them) and a focus on the rebuilding of Xander. Very NC17. Plus, slasheriffic!

Personally, I'm not that bothered by Season 7, overall, though it is rather a unrelenting downer. I was completely pumped by the finale, and watched and rewatched it until all the plot holes loomed too large and I had to give it a rest. So, yes, there are plenty of nits to pick, but I'm not a hater.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec - that looks intriguing.

I'd have fewer potentials in S7. Perhaps three?

The First being more... interesting would have been great.

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I've never really understood why people hate S7 so much. It wasn't perfect by any means, but it's one of my favourite seasons, along with S5 and S6.

I'd keep the potentials, but give them much less screen time, as I did like the idea behind them. I agree with you about the Gauardian, and while I don't mind Andrew, I'd have preferred Jonathan. I wouldn't change the Spike/Buffy storyline as such, but more screen time would have been nice (they really didn't get that much, no matter what some people say}.

Of course, there are things I'd like to change about S7 (and probably every other season, if I'm honest), but on the whole I was happy with what we got. :)

Sorry about the edited comments. The "d" on my keyboard keeps sticking.

[shapinglight]

It wasn't perfect by any means, but it's one of my favourite seasons, along with S5 and S6.

No, it was far from perfect, but yes, I like parts of it an awful lot, and when I rewatched it in 2006, found lots of good stuff I'd forgotten about and that episodes I'd thought very poor the first time weren't nearly as bad as all that. There were lots of plot holes, though, and some places where a little more joined up thinking would have been nice.

I'm happy with the Spuffy content. I think it's just about right.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

I don't know what I would change, really. But as you say, overall I liked it. I even liked the potentials, and I know alot of people hate them. :-P Evolution babe. The potentials and all that were the evolution of the slayer-line. Or so I see it. :-)

[shapinglight]

I think the idea of the Potentials is fine, but it falls down in the execution. In fact, that's a large part of the problem with season 7. The idea of ultimate, original evil as the last villain in the show is great, but the execution isn't that good.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

No dame ex machina "guardian", that's for double sure.

The potentials - gah. I dunno what I would have done differently - have more of them? Fewer of them? More varied?
Developed them more? They just seemed like a slew of girlscouts who wandered on set accidentally.

Of course, I have a big peeve about the general upper-classedness of the show (Money is never a problem unless it's a plot point) and I'd have liked to have seen maybe more of the potentails be minorities, low-income, what have you.

Maybe have the potentials deal better with sudden barracks living than Buffy and company.

I just.. didn't like the whole first evil plot. I think you're right, the first evil wasn't menacing enough, and suffered greatly from Bad Guy Syndrome - where in hindsight 90% of the First Evils actions make no sense, have no cohesive plan, are just the chaotic jumble of "What will keep the heroes busy this week?"

Oh, and I'd get rid of the Weekly Rape Reminders and move the fuck on.

[shapinglight]

No dame ex machina "guardian", that's for double sure.

No. I think whatever the Guardian did (which was minimal anyway) could just as well have been done by Buffy having a Slayer dream about the First Slayer. Would have been more in keeping too, considering the Shadow Men/Original Watchers must have been the ones who made the First Slayer who she was.

And I know what you mean about the Potentials' lack of diversity in every sense of the word. Nothing new in the Buffyverse, of course.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

On the whole, I pretty much liked S7. While it's true that I view a lot of it as an attempt to redeem the fuckupedness of the latter half of S6, there are some damn good episodes in the last season. Conversations with Dead People and Potential to name just two.

I would have liked to have seen more fallout from S6-more of Anya and Xander's storyline, more of Dawn's. Would have liked it had Willow been stronger and not been as afraid to use magic (I liked her appearance on "Angel" better than Btvs that year). Perhaps they should have had less Potentials to deal with.

I liked Robin Wood, loved that Nikki's backstory was expanded. I'm torn as to whether or not I think Giles would have conspired with Wood against Spike. While I don't believe it was OOC for Giles, it would have made more sense (in my not so humble opinion) if it had been Xander.

And like hello_spikey, I could have done without the Weekly Rape Reminders and Buffy saying "He has a soul now." every freaking other minute.

[shapinglight]

I agree there are some great episodes. Sleeper/Never Leave Me are two of my all-time favourite Spike-centric episodes. I also love Potential and Selfless. I don't mind the harking back to season 6, because I love that season anyway, but I don't think it's overdone. I wish there had been more Xander and Anya. The good cop/bad cop scene with Andrew in NLM is just so good - reminds me of what a great couple they were.

I don't think it was OOC for Giles to conspire with Wood the way he did, and agree that the Wood story is good. I would like to have seen certain aspects of it turn out differently, but can see how they couldn't in the circumstances.

and Buffy saying "He has a soul now." every freaking other minute.

Does she really say it that often? I only remember it twice, once in Him with Xander and Dawn and once with Giles in First Date. It was important, I guess, and I think generally it wasn't played up too much.

[ubi4soft.livejournal.com]

I,m not so much into big changes but instead of pointless plot in "Him", I'd like to see some clarifications-fill in blanks (how Spike's jacket got into basement, what Buffy wrote to Spike in that letter)

And replace the Buffy/Angel kiss and talk about the future with some Spike/Angel talk about soul

[shapinglight]

And replace the Buffy/Angel kiss and talk about the future with some Spike/Angel talk about soul

Well, I think that more properly belonged in AtS season 5, where they did talk about it, if not always in the way we would have liked them to, but the hospital scene in Damage makes up for a lot.

I would have liked some minor clarifications about certain things too, and the duster is definitely one of them.

[shapinglight]

Hmm, have to say I strongly disagree with a lot of what you say. In other places, I feel you're describing a lot of what we got in season 7 anyway. Guess it depends on one's definition of certain words.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on most of these, though I certainly do agree that the villain of the season, be it the First Evil or someone else, should have been better done.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I think I would have to pretty much change the theme of the season. In a lot of ways, with heading back to high school along with a slew of young characters, they seemed to be trying to recapture the past in some ways. They also seemed to think that they could try to return Buffy, Willow, and Xander to their early season personalities on the surface but that also required mostly sweeping their actions in Season 6 under the carpet as quickly as possible. All of those things sapped momentum out of the story and threw a road block in with a ton of near nameless potentials.

Instead of trying to reconnect with the past, the 'lesson' should have been that you really cannot go back. Either you learn from your past, move forward and grow or you stagnate and die. That would have lead to a more natural conclusion to a series initially about growing up. It could have then addressed more character issues such as Willow's culpability for her actions in Season 6 as well as her grief, learning to accept both. Having Xander face his control issues and family issues (which would have dealt with his Anya and Buffy issues). Having Buffy realizing that she'd been running in emotional place since her resurrection (and romantically since she killed Angelus). And it would have been useful in Spike's story if we return to the old theories of the soulless being stuck emotionally in the issues when they were vamped versus acquiring a soul kicking in the ability to grow again. t

The First's ability to imitate people from their pasts then would have been given a real purpose and power, and the "From beneath you it devours" line would also have made sense. It also would have given all the primary characters issues to address and NOT allowed the show to turn blind eyes to the abyssmal behavior exhibited by the core four and everyone but Tara in Season 6. As it was, only Anya and Spike evolved in any significant way during the season (and even that wasn't as much of a payoff as we would have wished) while almost completely ignoring Willow, Xander's, and Buffy's lingering baggage. There was too much effort to recapture and too little in evolving.

Re: Female empowerment, it's part and parcel of self-empowerment. If you grow up, realize your failures and where you can grow, then you have empowered yourself be you female, male, witch, vengeance demon, or vampire.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Ditto all the way on that. Ditto.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I mostly like season 7 -- so I'd keep the major elements. I like the idea of the First Evil; I like the end result being an army of slayers; and I like the Spike/Buffy arc.

But the season is just rife with plot holes and poor execution. What was the First Evil's plan? It's never clear. More pay-off to the connection between the First Evil and Buffy's resurrection (or drop that idea). Lay down some groundwork for the scythe-ex-machina, and while you're at it look at a book of farm implements and realize that this thing is not a scythe. Toss the "is Giles the First" plotline, or pay it off by having the First take the form of another trusted formerly dead character and actually causing some havoc. It's a cool idea, but the execution is totally stinker.

Deal with the OOC moments created by giving characters false choices. Giles didn't have to choose between doing nothing and going along with Robin. There are lots of things in between that could have been done first. The Scoobies' choice was not between keeping Buffy as a leader and blind-siding her with an eviction notice. In both cases, the dramatic need to distance Buffy from them is undermined by the weirdness of behavior that it requires.

If we're going to flash back to SR, let's have a flash back to DT. There's plenty of baggage to go around.

Repair the Willow arc of season 6 by having her recognize that it wasn't abuse of magic that was the whole problem, but there are some serious control issues that go along with it. (Speaking as one who still thinks it's kind of disgusting that ME had Tara go back to the woman who had played around with her memories -- which is a pretty close parallel to using a date rape drug on your girlfriend).

Keep Anya dead in Selfless and do the fall out from that. If she must be kept alive, give her some arc.

If I could only pick one it would be think harder about the First Evil's plan, and create deeper resonance with Buffy's overall story. This is the final Big Villain. It should have meant something. Oh, and Caleb should just be gone. Not even worth mentioning. If you need to give Fillion a job, bring him in as Mal and do something creative with that.

[shapinglight]

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, Maggie, except that I don't think Joss made such a hash of Willow's arc as you do. I think The Killer in Me makes it pretty plain she does realise she has control issues, beyond the whole 'magic is crack.' In fact, Joss disposes of that rather ludicrous idea as early as the Giles/Willow scene in Lessons.

If we're going to flash back to SR, let's have a flash back to DT. There's plenty of baggage to go around.

I would have liked this too, but I think Joss probably went as far as he dared go at various points in the season in hinting that Buffy was to partly to blame for what happened between her and Spike.

That said, you get extra points for being in the Wanting Caleb Gone club with me.

[deird1]

I'd keep it the same - season 7 rocks.

I agree with you about bringing the Guardian in a lot earlier, though.


In fact, with one representative of one of the extremist factions of fans, it seems to have become a major article of ‘faith’ that during the last two seasons of the show, the other writers formed a conspiracy to ‘ruin’ it behind Joss’s back, and that Joss himself had nothing whatsoever to do with seasons 6&7 (presumably, he was tied up and gagged in a closet while Marti Noxon, urged on by rabid Spike fans, wrote ransom demands to his family with one hand while penning show-trashing episodes with the other).

*snorts* That about sums it up.

Hmm... Really must try writing that later-season-writers RPF I've got in my brain...

[shapinglight]

I'd keep it the same - season 7 rocks.

I agree, though as I said in my post there are some things I would change, mainly tightening up the plot, diminishing the Potential annoyance factor, getting rid of Caleb (which could be done by making the FE scarier some other way - and people have had some great suggestions), and making the Guardian more relevant and less irritating.

Hmm... Really must try writing that later-season-writers RPF I've got in my brain...

Ooh, yes please!

[fenderlove.livejournal.com]

Oh, so much that could have been done. So much! So here's just two points that have popped into my head!

I think I would have kept the Potentials, made them more likable (or just more in the background... or you know, got rid of Kennedy), and then at the end, where the show was really supposed to be about female empowerment, I would have had the Potentials actually be given a choice about accepting the Slayer power. It should have been an individual, personal choice, the one thing that Buffy complained that she was never given. If a girl didn't want the power, she should have been able to walk away without the power being forced upon her. THAT would have been empowerment. Instead, for every little girl who's now able to hit a fly ball over the fence, we're stuck with the girl who finally stands up to her abusive father but accidentally beats him to death and gets tried as an adult and winds up on Death Row. And let's not forget the Danas and pre-jail Faiths out there. And honestly, Kennedy is not a person I would trust with superpowers. She's got boundary issues that are probably going to lead to a sexual assault charge.

I also would have left out the high school stuff. "Back to the beginning" yadda yadda yadda. I didn't need Buffy to go back to the beginning; I needed her and the Scoobies to grow the fuck up. The only problem is if they grow up, they wouldn't be friends anymore because it's already been abundantly clear since S4 that they just aren't compatible in the long term. They're the type of friends that send each other birthday cards and at the holidays and maybe talk over the phone a few times a year, but they're not really bestest buddies anymore. If BtVS is the ultimate metaphor for growing up and high school, then they've missed an important step- the part where high school ENDS. You grow apart from your high school friends; you love them and consider them friends, but you're not as close as you used to be. I have maybe one close friend left out of the people I went to high school with that I am in regular contact with, but even that relationship is very strained since we went to college. It's natural that you go out and gain new experiences and make new friends in college or in the work place. Being with the same people for the past eight seasons hasn't done Buffy or anyone else a damn bit of good. Why has Team Angel worked out a bit better? Because they were all adults in the workplace. It's a whole different vibe, allows for more personal growth.

[shapinglight]

The idea of giving the Potentials a choice is actually a very good one. It could easily have been done by a show of hands in the scene where Buffy rallies the troops before the final battle. However, it wouldn't solve the problem of how she goes about getting the permission of every potential Slayer in the world, since they aren't all there to ask.

I suspect that Joss meant us to see the empowering moment as symbolic rather than actual, but when the story goes on afterwards, as it did in AtS, that's not so easy.

As I said to someone above, I don't think the back to the beginning idea was an attempt to relive some of the show's earlier glories, but more a rather ham-fisted attempt to bring things full-circle.

And I did feel that the nature of Buffy, Xander and Willow's friendship had changed by the end of the season and become more mature. I thought that scene in the school hall where they meet and then go their separate ways symbolised that. If I ignore the comics, I still see it that way.

I do agree that all of this could have been done better.

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

Oh Lord! Well, one thing I would have done is have them all deal with the consequences of season six in a realistic and mature manner that didn't just sweep them under the rug. I also would not have included Andrew and all those Potentials. They really just dragged the show down with so many extra characters.

Basically, all the things that didn't make sense in S7, I would try to flesh out more and make sense of it.

[shapinglight]

Basically, all the things that didn't make sense in S7, I would try to flesh out more and make sense of it.

Yes, there's a lot that doesn't make sense, but I persist in feeling that the basic idea is sound. It just failed in parts of the execution.

How do you feel they fell down in dealing with the season 6 fall out?

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

In the end IMO S7 tried to do too much.

Too many characters, too many messages, too many viewer "factions", too much fallout from previous years.

Quite frankly, I'd probably have Anya die (by Buffy or D'Hofryn), Xander unable to deal with it would leave, Giles would have been killed by the First and Dawn would leave (dying would be too much).

This would clear up "room" to deal with what Whedon really wanted S7 to be about.

[shapinglight]

This would clear up "room" to deal with what Whedon really wanted S7 to be about.

I take it by this you mean the female empowerment theme?

Re: Xander leaving, I suppose this would bring us up against the contract problem again. NB was contracted for a whole season, plus with Xander being one of the main characters, writing him out before the end would have been rather odd.

You may be right that they tried to do too much, but I think the main problem is one of pacing rather than content. Better pacing, as in previous seasons, and there would have been room for everything.

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

Thread hopping here. Sacha Baron Cohen must have read your Furnitureverse! Article about his new movie Spoiler alert:here. Second last paragraph. I was going to just cut and paste the relevant sentence, but was afraid someone might not want to be spoiled.

[shapinglight]

Blimey, ToM. You gave me a fright there. I thought you meant it literally. Heh!

[missus-grace.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...I'm not sure. Actually, as a Spuffy fan, I'd have done away with the Spuffy subtext and gone blatant. We didn't get enough nekid Spike in Season 7.

And am I the only one who liked Andrew? I think the FE's manipulation of Andrew was correct, and maybe the murder of Jonathan, but Andrew was so darn funny and Tom Lenk acted him perfectly that he became more sympathetic to me and he should have had to suffer some consequences as a result of his actions other than being tied up a few times.

Then again, BtVS is always about giving people second chances, whether they deserve them or not.

[shapinglight]

We didn't get enough nekid Spike in Season 7.

Heh! While JM may well have thought we got too much. Not that I disagree with you.

You're definitely not the only one who likes Andrew. I know deird1 loves him. My reasons for not liking him aren't really to do with him getting off too easy. I think the giving of second chances is a very good thing, and a good way of pointing out that no one is perfect (not even Buffy). I'm afraid I just find the character annoying, and not funny at all.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

There are a ton of good points all ready made that I agree with--less Potentials, a real big bad, less blatant continuity errors and a stronger theme...My biggest beef with season seven though would be the Scoobies. Cept for maybe Xander--I think he made some changes. More than his BFFs at any rate.

I guess my biggest problems revolve around Buffy and Willow. I have to see the opening again, but I'm pretty sure Willow says something along the lines of "I let the magic take control of me," when really, she's the one with the power.

Buffy's the biggest problem though--she didn't learn a fucking thing last season, which makes me want to heave. Especially since she's the lead and the heroine--I hate how all of the wrongs she's done was glossed over.

Also, how assbackwards is the theme "going back to high school" when you were supposed to have dealt with life and grown up the previous season? Yeah, I guess it makes sense since she didn't grow at all anyway.

If s7 was supposed to represent female empowerment, it completely went over my head.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Also, I'd fire Maudlin Noxious just for the hell of it.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

Please forgive how disjointed....very sleepy!
Okay....using some of their choices and ridding the season of the parts I hated or felt were filled with plot holes.

Caleb would have been part of the big bad for the season BUT ...no FE and he would have been a former Watcher who was out to destroy the "dirty girls" that were an unnecessary tool against evil. This permits the blowing up of the Council and Giles having more power in the aftermath.

A couple of Potentials (very selective and short term) could be shown as it does serve to show the way the Council usually operated and how different it was for Buffy having been hidden from the Council as it were.

No "power sharing" as I found it wrong on too many levels to list here and also unnecessary.

Have Giles actually interested in how and why Spike got his soul. This would lead to a different approach to dealing with demons in a rebuilt Council (in the planning stage by the last episode).

Wood would be the principal and attempt to kill Spike but no FE involvement. This would lead to questions on redemption in that episode. Giles would not be part of this attempt on Spike's life however.

Buffy would show her feelings but Spike would no longer read her correctly. Just as they did...she would clearly care but he would not see it and she would not say it. In the end they would part with Buffy unable to commit and Spike unwilling to be her lap dog any longer. He would head to LA to work with Angel not only helping the helpless but learning how to live with the soul. He'd tell Buffy that she would know where to find him if she ever decided to accept his love and return it. (very angsty parting).

Willow would NOT get involved with any Kennedy type. Some real mourning behavior over Tara and remorse over her killing spree. She would be making amends throughout the season eventually using her magic again to help defeat Caleb and his minions.

Xander and Anya would end their relationship but both come out more mature. I wouldn't mind a hint at a Xander/Dawn and Anya/Giles future.

Buffy would have to be coming to terms with the grey areas of her battle. The final fight would have some demons siding with Buffy and some humans siding with Caleb making it clear that evil and good aren't that easy to determine. Buffy should show signs of actually growing.

The friends (Xander, Buffy, Willow) would reunite but as mature adults this time.

Naturally I'd make this mix of vague ideas make sense LOL (I may write it one day actually).

Kathleen

[shapinglight]

Heh! I think I'm going to have to exercise my right of veto here, as the originator of this post, to nix the idea of any larger a role for Caleb. I think he's the lamest, most cliched character that Joss ever inflicted on us.

That aside, I like some of your ideas a lot, but I'm not convinced the Watchers' Council on their own would have made an adequate villain for the final season, if only because Buffy has repeatedly trounced them in the past.

I do think we saw Willow mourning for Tara. Sometime in these things, less is more, and I think the scene where she puts the stone of Tara's grave, though brief, speaks volumes.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

I like the concepts behind season 7, so I wouldn't change many things: mostly repair the more blatant plot holes, refine some characterizations (Giles' for example),explore more the idea of the First Evil and get rid of evidently useless bits (like the Guardians).

[shapinglight]

Yep, pretty much what I think. As a plot, it's fine, it just needs some tweaking and tightening. It really would have benefited from being meticulously planned from the word go, but I think both Joss and Marti had their eye off the ball, plus that's not Joss's modus operandi, as I understand it.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Don't make the Council go kablooey so early. Instead, make them a bigger player so that the feminist metaphor can encompass Buffy coming to power in the patriarchy and turning them into something else by the end (Instead of the patriarchy being destroyed by an outside force, leaving Buffy to stand on the ruins of an old establishment to create her own). The Guardian, work her in better. It's a nice throw-out to feminism to show women remembering their history and how important female figures often go unnoticed, but it was worked in so poorly. Drop hints at the beginning about the Guardian before you make the big reveal.

Bring Caleb in earlier. He feels like an afterthought. And back off on the misogyny stuff. It's way too anvil-like for my taste.

The Potentials are actually okay, just don't focus on them so much. Focus more on the core group. Especially after the events of S6, we need to see them and how they're recovering/getting along with each other.

For god's sake, do something with Dawn!

Forget the lame mislead about Giles being The First. It just butchers his character for the first half of the season and makes him invisible for the rest of it. If we're going with my first suggestion of not destroying the Council, then have Giles be pivotal to Buffy's rise to power there in some way.

Introduce the amulet earlier so as to not make it a deus ex machina.

Course, this would all require a substantial reworking of the plot, but that's gonna be needed no matter what.

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

(Instead of the patriarchy being destroyed by an outside force, leaving Buffy to stand on the ruins of an old establishment to create her own

Good one! I have to say, I always wondered at the necessity for bringing in Caleb to be Teh Sexist Evil when the show already had a nicely workable metaphor for oppressive Patriarchy in the Watcher's Council. Was it just to add the religious ranting? If so, kind of a weak way to go about it. Why not have the monks at the Mission where the Axe is being held give Buffy a hard time instead - many monasteries don't allow women inside, after all. You don't even have to get fictional for that one.