(no subject)

[shapinglight]

Realised that I haven't said a lot about Mad Men recently. Well, I'm still enjoying it very much. In fact, it's the last piece of 'appointment telly' I have.

Spoilers behind cut.



Every episode I watch, I'm just stunned by how perfect it looks and by the way not a single word or action is wasted, and even the silences have meaning, and there are quite a lot of those. This week's episode was particularly hard to watch at times, as it was the one when poor Betty finally had Don's infidelities thrown in her face. I think we're supposed to believe that she really and truly had no idea. The last scene with her and Draper driving home and not a word said between them was horribly painful.

Draper is such a complicated man. I loathe the way he belittles and controls Betty, and yet the knowledge that he's the only person at Sterling Cooper who would ever have dreamt of promoting Peggy to copywriter is always lurking at the back of my mind. I don't think he really knows what he wants. Yes, he wanted a perfect little WASP wife and kids and the suburban dream, but they're not enough for him. He also wants a woman who can challenge him in some way - almost be his equal. Of course, he found one in season 1, in Rachel Mencken, but she was enough his equal - or in fact way better than him - that she saw right through him. Good for her.

There was something else in this week's episode which left me speechless with rage (things in Mad Men often do), which was the casual way Draper and Betty abandoned all the rubbish from their picnic. Found myself remembering the Keep Britain Tidy campaign, which began some time in the 60s and wondering, were we really so casual about littering then? It's not that we aren't now, given the amount of rubbish left lying everywhere, but even the people who litter know they're not supposed to but just do it anyway. Did people even think that way back then? I should ask my mum, I suppose, while I still can.

Great show. I have quibbles about it, but great show anyway.



The fact that Mad Men is currently the only show that I would be seriously upset if I missed makes me wonder again what does a show have to have in order for us to get fannish about it? I know it must vary a lot from person to person. Mostly, I'm pretty much of a TV snob. For me to get seriously invested in a show, it has to have good writing, or at least acceptable writing tempered by characters so interesting it doesn't matter if some of what they say isn't that brilliant. It also has to have something extra, but I'm not sure quite what it is. What is it for you?

Comments

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Do you get Damages in Britain? If so you might want to check it out. Especially if you like television with very complicated characters where no words or actions are wasted.

Regarding litter in the US in the 60s it was prevalent. So much so that there was a very memorable and widespread push against it in the 70s with television commercials that featured a Native American looking over fields covered in litter that zoomed in to his face where you could see one single tear fall.

Ask any American alive in the 70s about that commercial and they'll more than likely remember it.

[shapinglight]

We do get Damages but I seem to have managed to miss that one. Also, not really that keen on series about lawyers.

I think I've probably seen that advert you mention myself. Did it do any good? Has the litter situation improved, do you think, or is it just as bad? Or worse?

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with you about lawyer shows. Honestly I only gave it a chance because Mo Ryan, the television critic from the Chicago Ttribune, highly recommended it. Damages is different from most lawyer shows, though. Not much of the show actually takes place in courtrooms at all. Instead it's an extremely complex mystery and character study told in real time, flash back and flash forward where nothing is what it seems until the last episode. It's amazing, like watching a flower bloom. However, it needs to be watched in order from first to last.

Actually, compared to the 70's litter is much better than it used to be. Awareness was definitely raised and urban renewal projects have been prevalent since then. I like to think that commercial kicked off the green movement.

[shapinglight]

Damages does sound interesting, but it's something I'm going to have to catch with on DVD, I think, having managed to miss two whole series.

I'm glad the litter situation has improved in the US. I'm unsure whether it has here or not, just that there still seems to be an awful lot of it.

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

I think that scene in Mad Men was deliberatly done to make you gasp at the casualness that they littered the countryside (also the way Don lobbed the beer can into the trees).

My views on quality telly are similar to yours. However, I think whilst I obsess about brilliant shows, I tend to only get fannish (taking it that one step further than just viewing and squeeing), when I fall for a particular character or a pairing is so delicious I can't let it go.

[shapinglight]

I think that scene in Mad Men was deliberatly done to make you gasp at the casualness that they littered the countryside (also the way Don lobbed the beer can into the trees).

Oh yes. I think the way the camera lingered on the rubbish lying there made it pretty clear.

I tend to only get fannish (taking it that one step further than just viewing and squeeing), when I fall for a particular character or a pairing is so delicious I can't let it go.

It's probably the same with me, but could you see yourself getting fannish about a show that didn't have good writing to go along with the particular character? I mean, some people love Torchwood and Merlin and neither of those is well written IMO, so I don't think I could ever get fannish about them (except for JM in TW). Horrible TV snob, like I said.

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

No, I couldn't get fannish about badly, or even just averagely, written shows. Merlin and Torchwood are enjoyable romps, but both have childish dialogue and/or plots and both leave me cold. Luckily, no one in Merlin catches my fancy and I'd got over my JM and JB crushes a long time before ep 1 season 1 of Torchwood aired.

[shapinglight]

Hmm, I don't agree about Being Human. I thought it was very well written. However, the characters/set-up were intriguing enough that I could have forgiven the show for not being in the Mad Men department writing-wise. Not saying it was, btw. Very different kettle of fish.

[yourlibrarian]

Hahaha! I had much the same reaction, it was definitely a scene designed to shock modern audiences. Mind you, there are still people who are just as casual today about litter. But I do think that littering today is 50/50 between accidental and deliberate. Our apartment complex is right by a supermarket and we are surrounded by a fence. The fence always has plastic bags stuck to it, most no doubt caught by the wind and whisked away until they get tangled there.

I do think, though, that our society (can't speak for outside the U.S.) has simply shifted its littering habits. Especially in the 1990s, we had moved to an extreme with "disposable" products. The fact that they might be tidily put in a trash can only meant the problem was (largely) out of sight, but the thoughtlessness of one's product use is even more prevalent today.

The fact that Mad Men is currently the only show that I would be seriously upset if I missed makes me wonder again what does a show have to have in order for us to get fannish about it.

I'd say it has to do with characters. For example, Mad Men is well written but it's hard to really care about many of the characters. At least it is for me.

Out of curiosity though, where does BSG rank with you?

[shapinglight]

I had much the same reaction, it was definitely a scene designed to shock modern audiences

Yes, they do that quite a bit, like people drinking and driving and pregnant women smoking etc.

The fence always has plastic bags stuck to it, most no doubt caught by the wind and whisked away until they get tangled there.

Yes, it's like that at the supermarket near us too. I hate it. Hate plastic bags altogether. I think many people do try not to litter these days (depending on where you live), as opposed to the 60s, but even so we seem to be drowning in the stuff.

For example, Mad Men is well written but it's hard to really care about many of the characters. At least it is for me.

I agree they're hard to like. There isn't a single one who is wholly sympathetic. On the other hand, there isn't one who is completely unsympathetic either. That's quite unusual in television, I think.

BSG is definitely a fannish show of the first order to me. Well-written, great characters, and with that something extra. I just hope I'll still feel the same way after I finally get to see the last 10 episodes.

[yourlibrarian]

I think you will. I have quibbles about some decisions, but I think it remains very character driven.

[shapinglight]

That's good to know. Provided all my favourite characters don't end up dead, of course.

[quinara]

I just watched the last episode of Mad Men - it was really good! I can't believe I'm actually starting to like Jimmy Barrett (in an odd sort of way). I think the pacing is the main thing that draws me in - you sit down at the start and get carried straight through the 45 minutes. I stopped watching House because it wasn't doing that for me enough anymore - everything was stilted and felt like it went on for far too long.

Another thing I've noticed about Mad Men is the way it involves the audience so well. It's self-critical (with the camerawork in the picnic scene), but the audience has to do all the work (we're only shown the litter; there's no discussion about it). As you say with Don, he acts reprehensibly most of the time, but he also does admirable things. It's up to us to decide how we judge him for that.

[shapinglight]

I can't believe I'm actually starting to like Jimmy Barrett (in an odd sort of way).

I feel the same way, even though he was a complete and total arsehole to Betty. It's always possible, though, that he didn't think she could be that naive. Plus, she lost a lot of sympathy points when she said what she said about 'you people.'

It is gripping, isn't it? Also - and this is very important, and probably is the ultimate test of what is and what isn't appointment telly for me - I never, ever have the urge to make sarcastic comments about the program while it's on.

It's self-critical (with the camerawork in the picnic scene), but the audience has to do all the work (we're only shown the litter; there's no discussion about it). As you say with Don, he acts reprehensibly most of the time, but he also does admirable things. It's up to us to decide how we judge him for that.

Yep. Show, don't tell. I love that.

[quinara]

Plus, she lost a lot of sympathy points when she said what she said about 'you people.'

Betty seems to do that a lot, doesn't she? I feel like every time I'm starting to really feel sorry for her something will come out and make me go 'you what??'. I suppose it's all part of the show's alienating technique.

I never, ever have the urge to make sarcastic comments about the program while it's on.

I've yet to watch it with other people, so I don't know about that yet. But it wouldn't be a problem for me; the best TV, I find, is stuff I can watch on two levels: (semi-)seriously on my own and snarking the whole way through it with other people. My brother and I have a habit of watching films by chatting the whole way through them... I think that's one of the main reasons Buffy's so enduring as my fave show evah. It's gripping to watch on its own, but even better to bash through with a smile on your face.

As for Mad Men, I'm beginning to think there's some stuff I need to catch up on (though I think I am getting S1 for my birthday on Sunday). What's this whole bit about him stealing someone's identity? (I really don't mind spoilers - but don't worry if it's really long and hard to explain.)

[shapinglight]

As for Mad Men, I'm beginning to think there's some stuff I need to catch up on (though I think I am getting S1 for my birthday on Sunday). What's this whole bit about him stealing someone's identity? (I really don't mind spoilers - but don't worry if it's really long and hard to explain.)

Well, I won't go into too much detail, but it's to do with Draper's service in the Korean War. It's less than glorious, let's say.

As for Betty, though I feel desperately sorry for her most of the time, there are others when she really irritates/appalls me, and even January Jones, the actress who plays her, says we shouldn't feel too sorry for the character. She's made her own bed in many ways.

I'm looking forward to what you think of season 1. It pretty much starts with a bang -not a literal bang, but it's pressed home very quickly indeed what a different world we're in.

[quinara]

*rubs hands gleefully* Heh, though I'm also on a Buffy re-watch (2 episodes a day, no skipsies), so it might take me a few days/a couple of weeks to get through it.

[shapinglight]

Sounds like fun. I was going to do a complete BtVS rewatch, but when it took me nearly a year just to rewatch season 1, I realised it wasn't going to happen.

[quinara]

I decided it was worth forcing myself through it (though 'forcing' as a description became pretty much obsolete after Day 2), if only because there are some episodes I haven't seen in at least five years. I'm having a blast! Time however hasn't given me the capacity to actually get Bangel. They only seem to spend proper time together for about three episodes before their forever-love is entrenched in stone... I mean, Xander and Cordelia seem more solid. *sigh*

It is time consuming though.

[shapinglight]

I know what you mean about Bangel. I think it sort of half-bought it at the time, in season 2, but my jaw just drops when anyone tries to suggest it's the be-all and end-all of romance rather than a damaging relationship between a vulnerable school girl and a much older man who should have known better. Of course, the fact I had daughters around Buffy's age when I first watched it probably factors into how I view it.

[quinara]

It was in Surprise, when they were at the docks and Angel pulls out the Claddagh ring, which as far as I'm concerned is pretty much like saying "Don't you dare move on." *shakes head*

[shapinglight]

I think my reaction to that scene at the time was, "Wha-? He's supposed to be Irish? Doesn't look/sound it.", which reaction was tripled ten times over the first time DB tried to do an Irish accent.

[quinara]

DB's Irish accent deserves a position in a Hall of Shame Fame somewhere!

I love the beginning of S3 (well, actually I don't, but that's another story) when Scott Hope pulls another one out, the implication being that there's a tack retro shop selling them for about 99 cents apiece...

[shapinglight]

I love the beginning of S3 (well, actually I don't, but that's another story) when Scott Hope pulls another one out, the implication being that there's a tack retro shop selling them for about 99 cents apiece...

Hee! Yes, that's very funny. Must have had the Bangel 'shippers spitting nails at the time.

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

Character and world building I think. The more fully realized and complex a character is, the more likely I am to become interested. And ensemble. All of those require good writing so I won't list that as a separate element though it's extremely important. West Wing has all of that, plus a fascinating glimpse into the political world. Dexter has fascinating character, great ensemble and riveting plots. The Wire took a while to draw me in and I think world building is uppermost in that one, along with varied and interesting characters and great ensemble. True Blood is kind of an interesting case as I don't think it's as good as it could be (writing not as good as Six Feet Under), but its world building and interesting characters (though not the main ones) have kept my interest and I look forward to its return. I'm quite liking Castle so far, though a bit irritated with the stock blowsy, showbiz type mother and the overly wise, daughter/lover type that seems exclusive to American productions. I think the show might get old pretty soon, but so far I'm tuning in with some interest. Life on Mars had all the elements in spades and I can't separate it's total feel from the theme song--best use of signature music in a long time. House and Grey's Anatomy I still watch, but they stay locked in what I would call high mediocre. Just enough interest to keep me viewing, but no biggie if I miss an episode. Heheh, I could go on. Glad you asked.

[shapinglight]

Character and world building I think. The more fully realized and complex a character is, the more likely I am to become interested. And ensemble. All of those require good writing so I won't list that as a separate element though it's extremely important

Yes, I guess it'll always come back to the writing, or I feel it should do. I would like to understand how people get drawn into the fandoms of badly written shows, though. I think maybe it could be that they encounter the fandom before the show, and that helps them to see the show in a different light. Or is that too complicated?

[twilightofmagic.livejournal.com]

I often think my being drawn into the BtVS fandom was mostly to do with my discovery of the fan world through my increasing involvement with online life. I guess my journey would be academic forums, googling a show I was interested in to get more information and coming across a major multi-show board, meeting people on that board and some of us forming a smaller, break away board, hearing about Buffy and then joining the major Buffy/Spike boards, hearing about slash and discovering LJ as people on the big boards began to migrate here and then the development of a friends' list through reading slash. All of that is to pinpoint the convergence of a growing online life and a show that might have become amplified in my mind and interest through the energetic discussion on fanboards/LJ. Before that, I'd liked certain shows very much, followed them avidly, but it was solitary. The dynamic engagement among fans online is what truly develops the passion for a show. Torchwood seems to me a show that transcends its quality through an enthusiastic fandom. But why did it blow up when it was so badly written at the beginning? I suppose because it intersected with slash in that what on other shows had been subtext and the grounds of play for slash writers was text in TW. Those shows that had a m/m sexual theme, no matter how poorly written (the US version of QAF for example, not awful but not great--transcended by the hot relationship between Brian and Justin) automatically became interesting IMO to slash oriented fans.

Went on too long, but which shows were you thinking of that you consider badly written and yet generating a fandom?

[shapinglight]

Great comment, ToM. Your journey into the BtVS fandom sounds very similar to my own, though I had been involved in fandom a little at an earlier date, when Babylon 5 was first on TV. Back then, fandom kept going by privately circulated fanzines. My sister ran a B5 one.

but which shows were you thinking of that you consider badly written and yet generating a fandom?

Well, Merlin for one. It's a load of preposterous twaddle, yet, like TW, the slashy elements in it seem to have really caught people's imaginations. You've already mentioned TW, which was for the most part pretty pants (though some episodes in season 2 weren't bad at all). There's Heroes. I believe that has a fandom. Also Bones which I find so dull I can't even watch it. Most notably of course, there's Star Wars.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

It's very interesting how much the camera work does increase my enjoyment of Mad Men - considering I'm not usually conscious of the visual nearly as much as the verbal - it certainly has an impact. But the power of a series that makes us think is really what draws me in. Sometimes it's about fierce concentration to keep up with allusions that tell the real story; sometimes it's that, like you, I was absolutely revolted by the littering in a way that the smoking, drinking and adultery did not affect me.

Draper is beautifully drawn as this complex man - there really is much to admire, and his creativity is genuinely moving at times. But much of his behaviour is inexcusable. And yet... there's something about the war, isn't there? His distaste at standing as a 'hero' last week, for example. Let alone his childhood. Brutalising, is probably the word. We shall see; and if we don't pay attention we might actually miss it! Hence, appointment TV.

[shapinglight]

But the power of a series that makes us think is really what draws me in.

Very much so. It even has a lot to say in what it doesn't show. For instance, the almost total lack of non-white characters. We all know why that is, but their absence is still a reproach - not on the show, because that's just showing us how things were - but on our own history.

And yet... there's something about the war, isn't there? His distaste at standing as a 'hero' last week, for example.

I think his unease probably stems from his knowledge of how inglorious his army career was and that he's stolen this other man's identity. But yes, his childhood was certainly brutal in the extreme, which made the scene where he refuses to punish his small son for a minor infraction very moving indeed.