More thoughts about the web comic

[shapinglight]

Have to say one thing for this Buffy web comic – it’s the first time for a long time that I’ve found myself over-thinking anything to do with the Buffy comics in general (possibly something to do with the beautiful art. Doubt I’d be feeling the same if Jeanty had drawn this).

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more there is that makes me go, hmmm!



Thing is, once I got over the initial squee! at the Spangel-ness of it, I of course found myself thinking about the context in which it happens, which is in Buffy’s nightmares.

This led me to two places, first of which is a touch of irritation with people who were upset by it. I mean, come on. Fair’s fair. Both Bangel and Spuffy got enough in the show that both groups can claim to have won (or at least drawn) and they need only watch their DVDs if they want to see it all again. Spangel ‘shippers, despite whatever Joss said in his episode commentaries for AtS season 5, got an unfinished sentence from Spike in AtS’s penultimate episode, and that’s it. So yes, I was a little peeved that some people couldn’t get past their ‘shipping preferences and be pleased for us, especially considering that many people aren’t reading the comic, don’t consider it canon, and even in the comics ‘verse it’s not even real. Buffy’s dreaming it.

Then I sort of shrugged. This is just Joss, I thought. It's his way. He’s poking fun at the two major ‘shipping groups here, and using Spangel to do it, while poking fun at the Spangels too, and 'shippers will be 'shippers and they want what they want.

And then of course I reached an even lower place (and I’m not the only one, it seems, see ruuger’s post) where I suddenly got quite annoyed at the way the Spangel in this scene was presented. This is Buffy’s nightmare, as I said, so apparently Spike and Angel preferring each other to her is one of the worst things she can think of. Also, before she sees them, she sees the arch-misogynist Caleb who reminds her that she’s just a ‘dirty girl,’ in contrast to the ‘clean boys.’ Then I realised that you could, if you so chose, interpret this scene to mean that Joss is portraying male homosexuals as nasty woman-haters (some are, no doubt, but so are many straight men), or at best making them into a big joke.

Then I thought – nah! Not his intention. This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of? She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen. Then I thought, well, Joss should be a bit more careful, and I felt grumpy, and lost my squee entirely. :(

Oh well, no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless. Shall just have to cling to the knowledge that in the end all the wild speculation about that episode was just that; speculation. And it won’t stop me nabbing some icons, because we may never get to see Jo Chen draw Spike and Angel again.

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know what you mean. I feel torn too and have almost given up trying to analyze it really as that way only madness lies. *g*

[shapinglight]

Really doesn't do to overthink it, though that of course is what fans do, and why we're fans in the first place.

:rather more muted squee: Spangel!

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel or any of the other Buffyverse characters. Georges Jeanty would be exiled to an uninhabited small island off the coast of Papua New Guinea, with no writing materials other than charcoal and slabs of volcanic basalt, so that his hideous scrawlings could never trouble human eyes again.

The comic bored me; but the artwork made me weep for what might have been if Chen had drawn Season 8 - and if the writers had been forced to have the whole thing thoroughly Brit-picked by a native before a single panel was drawn.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I already resolved not to touch the subject of the web comic with a barge pole, so I won't.

It has always amazed me that comics, being a visual medium, have so many abysmal artists. All the comics I really liked (bar Hellblazer, and I originally got into that because of the work of John Ridgeway), I liked due to the quality the art (Love and Rockets, Skeleton Key, The Sandman, Sheba, etc). I suppose it wasn't really surprising I liked indie comics best.

[sentine.livejournal.com]

I've decided to stay with the Spangel squee, whatever Joss Whedon's intentions are. In the end, whether it's about TV shows, fiction or artwork, it's what matters to you, the reader/viewer, which is important.

Although, as soon as I watched BtVs for the first time, I've been bothered by Whedon's (and some of the writers in the show, I guess) views on male homosexuality. Whether it was in Xander's eyes, or in Andrew's character, etc., it was almost always cliché and stupid. The fact that, in the DVD commentaries, he explained that it surely happened between Spike and Angel because they were "deviants" made me jump in my seat. Well, I was also bothered by many other of their views, but that's another story ;)

[elisi]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.
Yes. Yes it was. (Of course I can see what you're saying but I'm so genuinely disengaged that I can enjoy the entertaining pretty without any of the darker subtexts bothering me at all.)

[elisi]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel
Can I add Franco Urru to the list? Cause the man can draw a 'Spike-look', something I thought was impossible.

I'm with you on Jeanty's fate though. And this:

what might have been if Chen had drawn Season 8 - if the writers had been forced to have the whole thing thoroughly Brit-picked by a native before a single panel was drawn.
Well... on the plus side s8 is so much easier to ignore when it looks terrible and reads worse.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Have to say, I liked it a lot, the drawings were tee pretty, no grand ship descissions were made and I loved the spangel bits to pieces! :)

I don't think in any way that the scene was designed to portray homosexuals as woman haters. I think however that it might have been a jab at slash genre, where female love interests are often just complemented out.

I've heard that accusation on slash before (and I have to say that there is misogynistic slash out there, but so is het). Personally I disagree, I think slash (in general) is as hostile to women as lesbian porn is to men aka not at all, but I could see how Joss would be irked to see his cool female heroines sent out of the room so often, so he's entitled to poke imho.
Reminded me a bit of the Supernatural episode featuring wincest.

I kind of like both levels of the thing, that it so pretty on the outside, the pictures, the Spangel and that it's so mean on the inside. The twisted wedding fantasy, her desertion by Spike and Angel. I think it added a much needed good look at what's going on inside comic Buffy and how much, she's not happy with herself.

Something that makes me scratch my head about the scene with Spike and Angel is that Buffy didn't say that she loved them. She said, she missed them, that she's needy, and that they should love her.
It made me feel really sorry for comic Buffy, more emotion than I ever felt during the rest of S8.

[kathyh]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel or any of the other Buffyverse characters.

Hear, hear! You have my backing in any bid for world domination.

[kathyh]

This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of?

I don't think it's the fact that Spike and Angel are getting it on that's the worst thing Buffy can think of (we know she rather liked the idea on TV) but the fact that she is excluded from it. She was once the most important thing in their lives and now she's shut out. I agree with flake_sake and feel sorry for comic!Buffy.

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Definitely. I'm just rejoicing in the beautiful artwork :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

you could, if you so chose, interpret this scene to mean that Joss is portraying male homosexuals as nasty woman-haters

That's a possible interpretation of the text but I think it is, as Oz would say, a radical one.

Spike and Angel getting it on isn't just some abstract "worst thing she can imagine". It's very specifically tied to Buffy's personality and her current problems.

She has abandonment issues, both long-term (her father, Angel, Parker, Riley, Giles, Spike, Satsu... the list goes on) and current (the world is turning against Slayers and rejecting them). This is simply Angel and Spike abandoning her in a very public (and, yes, funny) way.

She's also feeling guilty because she blames herself for all the bad things currently happening to the girls she made into Slayers, whom she feels responsible for. She's beating herself up over that, which is why she calls herself a "dirty girl" (remember, 'Caleb' here is actually Buffy's own subconscious).

She's not squicked by Spike and Angel having sex. She thinks she's no longer worthy of them anymore, so they naturally turn to each other and abandon her. That's why she's upset... she's feeling needy and they no longer need her.


She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen.

Well, remember that this is all Buffy's dream. Spike and Angel aren't really having sex; this is Buffy thinking about them having sex. Considering it's not the first time in S8 we've been shown Buffy dreaming about the two of them together in a sexual situation, I'm guessing it's something she thinks about a lot.


no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless.

I confess I've never understood the people who claim that Joss hasn't deliberately put the same depth of symbolism and metaphor into Season 8 as he does into all the other stories he tells. Why wouldn't he?

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think it's a hint that Buffy knows Spike is alive (stupid Andrew, who can't keep a secret!) and currently hanging out in LA with Angel and she feels left out.

[quinara]

This led me to two places, first of which is a touch of irritation with people who were upset by it.

I hope I didn't come across like that anywhere - sorry if I did! Of course Spangel deserves its day in the (somewhat murky) sun! I'm mostly miffed that it was a dream sequence. I can't believe I'm saying this, as someone who loves them with a passion I thought could not die, but I'm getting pretty bored of dream sequences. Joss needs to wake up and realise that people aren't bemoaning the lack of Spike and Angel just for the squee ('oh, that's fine, we'll throw them a quick non-committal bone'), it's because his story is dull and essentially exploring the same thing he explored on-and-off for seven years, but on a larger scale. Buffy feels abandoned and alone and guilty. Shock of the bleeding century.

And this comment came out far differently than I intended it. Sorry! Go Spangel! It was clearly foreshadowing of something more sensible! (Seriously, as someone who spent a good minute looking at Buffy's expression when she heard Spike's bubble, I cannot blame you for getting what you can out of it...)

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean .
poking fun at the two major ‘shipping groups here, and using Spangel to do it, while poking fun at the Spangels too Mmm.. that was pretty much my conclusion too. The 'Spangel-ness' looked lovely in some ways - you know I was pleased for you, right ? :)
but like I told in ruuger 's journal, I'm afraid Joss is teasing or mocking all shippers there.
In the end, I still think that it wasn't so funny.

[shapinglight]

I hope I didn't come across like that anywhere

Not at all. I thought you took it on the chin pretty well.

I'm mostly miffed that it was a dream sequence. I can't believe I'm saying this, as someone who loves them with a passion I thought could not die, but I'm getting pretty bored of dream sequences

I know what you mean. Once again, the perils of overthinking, because I soon got from the squee! to thinking. Bugger! It's just a dream. It hasn't really happened. And dream sequences like this are such a cliche in comics.

And I agree that overall the comic is pretty dull and just going over old ground. I'm hoping Jane E's arc might be better, but again without the presence of an ambiguous character like Spike or Angel it's always going to be lacking something. There's a reason why the best arc by far of the comics series to date has been the Dracula one.

Go Spangel! It was clearly foreshadowing of something more sensible!

Hee! I wonder what IDW would do if this were true?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Now it occurs to me that the very first issue features the line "She wants a lot of cheese". :)

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

It amuses me actually that so many people analyze it. :-) Why just not enjoy it as a well done comic? :-)

[shapinglight]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel or any of the other Buffyverse characters

Like elisi says below, I'd still let Franco Urru draw Spike, but apart from that, I agree with you. Also about the Brit-picking. Was in Scotland last week and didn't see a single place that remotely resembled anything in the comic. And no wolves either - and my mobile phone worked fine in most places. And no one shouted at their servants (or even had servants).

[shapinglight]

I suppose it wasn't really surprising I liked indie comics best.

No, and it's true there are an awful lot of inferior artists working in the mainstream. Jo Chen's not one of them, though.

I like your icon. It's very you. :)

[quinara]

I wonder what IDW would do if this were true?

They'd have to fall in line and get down with the Spangel lurve... *nods*

Maybe Oz will have become a really edgy down-with-the-wolf kind of guy in the interim? Or something. I don't know... It was somewhat a relief when I stopped caring about what happened in the comics.

[quinara]

Are you sure you went to Scotland? Surely it was an alternate dimension!

[shapinglight]

In the end, whether it's about TV shows, fiction or artwork, it's what matters to you, the reader/viewer, which is important.

This is true. And of course once a book/TV program is 'out there' it sort of belongs to the audience anyway, and there's plenty of room for interpretation, and if you end up having to be told what you're looking at - something that only happened in BtVS with Spike's soul quest - the creator has failed spectacularly.

I suppose Xander etc's reaction to homosexuality just reflects reality. However, it's a pity Joss either didn't dare and wasn't allowed, to view it from the 'inside' as it were, the way he did with Willow and Tara.

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

I'm with you!

[shapinglight]

I would like to be that disengaged. It would help if people wouldn't keep insisting this comic is somehow canon, because if the show had been anything like the comic, I would never have watched it.

[shapinglight]

Great scott! You could well be right.