More thoughts about the web comic

[shapinglight]

Have to say one thing for this Buffy web comic – it’s the first time for a long time that I’ve found myself over-thinking anything to do with the Buffy comics in general (possibly something to do with the beautiful art. Doubt I’d be feeling the same if Jeanty had drawn this).

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more there is that makes me go, hmmm!



Thing is, once I got over the initial squee! at the Spangel-ness of it, I of course found myself thinking about the context in which it happens, which is in Buffy’s nightmares.

This led me to two places, first of which is a touch of irritation with people who were upset by it. I mean, come on. Fair’s fair. Both Bangel and Spuffy got enough in the show that both groups can claim to have won (or at least drawn) and they need only watch their DVDs if they want to see it all again. Spangel ‘shippers, despite whatever Joss said in his episode commentaries for AtS season 5, got an unfinished sentence from Spike in AtS’s penultimate episode, and that’s it. So yes, I was a little peeved that some people couldn’t get past their ‘shipping preferences and be pleased for us, especially considering that many people aren’t reading the comic, don’t consider it canon, and even in the comics ‘verse it’s not even real. Buffy’s dreaming it.

Then I sort of shrugged. This is just Joss, I thought. It's his way. He’s poking fun at the two major ‘shipping groups here, and using Spangel to do it, while poking fun at the Spangels too, and 'shippers will be 'shippers and they want what they want.

And then of course I reached an even lower place (and I’m not the only one, it seems, see ruuger’s post) where I suddenly got quite annoyed at the way the Spangel in this scene was presented. This is Buffy’s nightmare, as I said, so apparently Spike and Angel preferring each other to her is one of the worst things she can think of. Also, before she sees them, she sees the arch-misogynist Caleb who reminds her that she’s just a ‘dirty girl,’ in contrast to the ‘clean boys.’ Then I realised that you could, if you so chose, interpret this scene to mean that Joss is portraying male homosexuals as nasty woman-haters (some are, no doubt, but so are many straight men), or at best making them into a big joke.

Then I thought – nah! Not his intention. This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of? She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen. Then I thought, well, Joss should be a bit more careful, and I felt grumpy, and lost my squee entirely. :(

Oh well, no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless. Shall just have to cling to the knowledge that in the end all the wild speculation about that episode was just that; speculation. And it won’t stop me nabbing some icons, because we may never get to see Jo Chen draw Spike and Angel again.

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Comments

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know what you mean. I feel torn too and have almost given up trying to analyze it really as that way only madness lies. *g*

[shapinglight]

Really doesn't do to overthink it, though that of course is what fans do, and why we're fans in the first place.

:rather more muted squee: Spangel!

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel or any of the other Buffyverse characters. Georges Jeanty would be exiled to an uninhabited small island off the coast of Papua New Guinea, with no writing materials other than charcoal and slabs of volcanic basalt, so that his hideous scrawlings could never trouble human eyes again.

The comic bored me; but the artwork made me weep for what might have been if Chen had drawn Season 8 - and if the writers had been forced to have the whole thing thoroughly Brit-picked by a native before a single panel was drawn.

[elisi]

If I ruled the world no-one other than Jo Chen would be allowed to draw Spike and Angel
Can I add Franco Urru to the list? Cause the man can draw a 'Spike-look', something I thought was impossible.

I'm with you on Jeanty's fate though. And this:

what might have been if Chen had drawn Season 8 - if the writers had been forced to have the whole thing thoroughly Brit-picked by a native before a single panel was drawn.
Well... on the plus side s8 is so much easier to ignore when it looks terrible and reads worse.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I already resolved not to touch the subject of the web comic with a barge pole, so I won't.

It has always amazed me that comics, being a visual medium, have so many abysmal artists. All the comics I really liked (bar Hellblazer, and I originally got into that because of the work of John Ridgeway), I liked due to the quality the art (Love and Rockets, Skeleton Key, The Sandman, Sheba, etc). I suppose it wasn't really surprising I liked indie comics best.

[shapinglight]

I suppose it wasn't really surprising I liked indie comics best.

No, and it's true there are an awful lot of inferior artists working in the mainstream. Jo Chen's not one of them, though.

I like your icon. It's very you. :)

[sentine.livejournal.com]

I've decided to stay with the Spangel squee, whatever Joss Whedon's intentions are. In the end, whether it's about TV shows, fiction or artwork, it's what matters to you, the reader/viewer, which is important.

Although, as soon as I watched BtVs for the first time, I've been bothered by Whedon's (and some of the writers in the show, I guess) views on male homosexuality. Whether it was in Xander's eyes, or in Andrew's character, etc., it was almost always cliché and stupid. The fact that, in the DVD commentaries, he explained that it surely happened between Spike and Angel because they were "deviants" made me jump in my seat. Well, I was also bothered by many other of their views, but that's another story ;)

[shapinglight]

In the end, whether it's about TV shows, fiction or artwork, it's what matters to you, the reader/viewer, which is important.

This is true. And of course once a book/TV program is 'out there' it sort of belongs to the audience anyway, and there's plenty of room for interpretation, and if you end up having to be told what you're looking at - something that only happened in BtVS with Spike's soul quest - the creator has failed spectacularly.

I suppose Xander etc's reaction to homosexuality just reflects reality. However, it's a pity Joss either didn't dare and wasn't allowed, to view it from the 'inside' as it were, the way he did with Willow and Tara.

[elisi]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.
Yes. Yes it was. (Of course I can see what you're saying but I'm so genuinely disengaged that I can enjoy the entertaining pretty without any of the darker subtexts bothering me at all.)

[shapinglight]

I would like to be that disengaged. It would help if people wouldn't keep insisting this comic is somehow canon, because if the show had been anything like the comic, I would never have watched it.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Have to say, I liked it a lot, the drawings were tee pretty, no grand ship descissions were made and I loved the spangel bits to pieces! :)

I don't think in any way that the scene was designed to portray homosexuals as woman haters. I think however that it might have been a jab at slash genre, where female love interests are often just complemented out.

I've heard that accusation on slash before (and I have to say that there is misogynistic slash out there, but so is het). Personally I disagree, I think slash (in general) is as hostile to women as lesbian porn is to men aka not at all, but I could see how Joss would be irked to see his cool female heroines sent out of the room so often, so he's entitled to poke imho.
Reminded me a bit of the Supernatural episode featuring wincest.

I kind of like both levels of the thing, that it so pretty on the outside, the pictures, the Spangel and that it's so mean on the inside. The twisted wedding fantasy, her desertion by Spike and Angel. I think it added a much needed good look at what's going on inside comic Buffy and how much, she's not happy with herself.

Something that makes me scratch my head about the scene with Spike and Angel is that Buffy didn't say that she loved them. She said, she missed them, that she's needy, and that they should love her.
It made me feel really sorry for comic Buffy, more emotion than I ever felt during the rest of S8.

[shapinglight]

Have to say, I liked it a lot, the drawings were tee pretty, no grand ship descissions were made and I loved the spangel bits to pieces! :)

That's how I felt yesterday.

I don't think in any way that the scene was designed to portray homosexuals as woman haters. I think however that it might have been a jab at slash genre, where female love interests are often just complemented out.

Well, I did say I thought that wasn't really Joss's intention, just that you could read it that way if you so chose. Also, I highly doubt that Joss has read any BtVS fanfic. It could lead to legal complications, so I'm told.

Something that makes me scratch my head about the scene with Spike and Angel is that Buffy didn't say that she loved them.

I take that as Joss doing his usual fence-sitting.

Must nab that icon when I get home. It's very pretty.

[kathyh]

This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of?

I don't think it's the fact that Spike and Angel are getting it on that's the worst thing Buffy can think of (we know she rather liked the idea on TV) but the fact that she is excluded from it. She was once the most important thing in their lives and now she's shut out. I agree with flake_sake and feel sorry for comic!Buffy.

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Definitely. I'm just rejoicing in the beautiful artwork :)

[shapinglight]

I'm just rejoicing in the beautiful artwork :)

I do keep coming back to that. I will have to find a way to print it up, though, because I do want a paper copy in my hands.

I feel sorry for Comics Buffy too, if it helps.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

you could, if you so chose, interpret this scene to mean that Joss is portraying male homosexuals as nasty woman-haters

That's a possible interpretation of the text but I think it is, as Oz would say, a radical one.

Spike and Angel getting it on isn't just some abstract "worst thing she can imagine". It's very specifically tied to Buffy's personality and her current problems.

She has abandonment issues, both long-term (her father, Angel, Parker, Riley, Giles, Spike, Satsu... the list goes on) and current (the world is turning against Slayers and rejecting them). This is simply Angel and Spike abandoning her in a very public (and, yes, funny) way.

She's also feeling guilty because she blames herself for all the bad things currently happening to the girls she made into Slayers, whom she feels responsible for. She's beating herself up over that, which is why she calls herself a "dirty girl" (remember, 'Caleb' here is actually Buffy's own subconscious).

She's not squicked by Spike and Angel having sex. She thinks she's no longer worthy of them anymore, so they naturally turn to each other and abandon her. That's why she's upset... she's feeling needy and they no longer need her.


She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen.

Well, remember that this is all Buffy's dream. Spike and Angel aren't really having sex; this is Buffy thinking about them having sex. Considering it's not the first time in S8 we've been shown Buffy dreaming about the two of them together in a sexual situation, I'm guessing it's something she thinks about a lot.


no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless.

I confess I've never understood the people who claim that Joss hasn't deliberately put the same depth of symbolism and metaphor into Season 8 as he does into all the other stories he tells. Why wouldn't he?

[elisi]

Satsu... the list goes on
How exactly does Satsu fit on the list? Buffy walked out on the relationship before it had even really started, whilst Satsu was very much interested. If Satsu goes on a list, it's the one with Owen and Scott and Ben - the people Buffy left because she realised she was with them for the wrong reasons. (I agree with your interpretation of why Buffy reacts the way she does to S/A btw.)

I confess I've never understood the people who claim that Joss hasn't deliberately put the same depth of symbolism and metaphor into Season 8 as he does into all the other stories he tells. Why wouldn't he?
He got lazy?

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think it's a hint that Buffy knows Spike is alive (stupid Andrew, who can't keep a secret!) and currently hanging out in LA with Angel and she feels left out.

[shapinglight]

I'm afraid I can't agree. I just don't think that Spike is important enough for the story Joss is telling here for him to impinge on Buffy's thoughts in any way except as a sexual fantasy.

:is cynical:

[quinara]

This led me to two places, first of which is a touch of irritation with people who were upset by it.

I hope I didn't come across like that anywhere - sorry if I did! Of course Spangel deserves its day in the (somewhat murky) sun! I'm mostly miffed that it was a dream sequence. I can't believe I'm saying this, as someone who loves them with a passion I thought could not die, but I'm getting pretty bored of dream sequences. Joss needs to wake up and realise that people aren't bemoaning the lack of Spike and Angel just for the squee ('oh, that's fine, we'll throw them a quick non-committal bone'), it's because his story is dull and essentially exploring the same thing he explored on-and-off for seven years, but on a larger scale. Buffy feels abandoned and alone and guilty. Shock of the bleeding century.

And this comment came out far differently than I intended it. Sorry! Go Spangel! It was clearly foreshadowing of something more sensible! (Seriously, as someone who spent a good minute looking at Buffy's expression when she heard Spike's bubble, I cannot blame you for getting what you can out of it...)

[shapinglight]

I hope I didn't come across like that anywhere

Not at all. I thought you took it on the chin pretty well.

I'm mostly miffed that it was a dream sequence. I can't believe I'm saying this, as someone who loves them with a passion I thought could not die, but I'm getting pretty bored of dream sequences

I know what you mean. Once again, the perils of overthinking, because I soon got from the squee! to thinking. Bugger! It's just a dream. It hasn't really happened. And dream sequences like this are such a cliche in comics.

And I agree that overall the comic is pretty dull and just going over old ground. I'm hoping Jane E's arc might be better, but again without the presence of an ambiguous character like Spike or Angel it's always going to be lacking something. There's a reason why the best arc by far of the comics series to date has been the Dracula one.

Go Spangel! It was clearly foreshadowing of something more sensible!

Hee! I wonder what IDW would do if this were true?

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean .
poking fun at the two major ‘shipping groups here, and using Spangel to do it, while poking fun at the Spangels too Mmm.. that was pretty much my conclusion too. The 'Spangel-ness' looked lovely in some ways - you know I was pleased for you, right ? :)
but like I told in ruuger 's journal, I'm afraid Joss is teasing or mocking all shippers there.
In the end, I still think that it wasn't so funny.

[shapinglight]

I suppose Joss could have meant his teasing in an affectionate way, but after reading what Scott Allie had to say, it doesn't feel that way any more.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Now it occurs to me that the very first issue features the line "She wants a lot of cheese". :)

[shapinglight]

Does it? Blimey, Moscow, maybe this comic has hidden depths after all?

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

It amuses me actually that so many people analyze it. :-) Why just not enjoy it as a well done comic? :-)

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

I'm with you!

[next_to_normal]

'shippers will be 'shippers and they want what they want.

As a confessed Spuffy shipper, I wouldn't have had a problem with the Spangel if it had been played differently. Spangel's actually the one slash pairing I enjoy, and I was rooting for the Spangel moments in After the Fall. But as I said on ruuger's lj, it feels like we're all being mocked here, and we've been mocked for three seasons now (BtVS S7, AtS S5, and S8 comics), and it's getting old. We get it, Joss. You think all our silly ships are stupid. Fine. Stop teasing us with them and maybe we'll focus on something else.

[shapinglight]

We get it, Joss. You think all our silly ships are stupid. Fine. Stop teasing us with them and maybe we'll focus on something else.

One does begin to suspect that Joss actively loathes a large segment of his audience. However, since that makes no sense from a business perspective, I suppose I have to believe I'm just being paranoid.

And you like Spangel? I had no idea.

[ringthebells]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Heh, yeah.

I had a mixed reaction myself (after the initial "Squee, Joss 'ships Spike/Angel for real!" reaction wore off) ... maybe I'll go and manage an actual post sometime on the weekend! That would be fun. (If I'm not too busy being sick/caring for sick baby/prepping next week's classes, sigh.)

[shapinglight]

Eh dear! I hope you feel better, and not just because I would really like to read your post. It's no fun being sick, and even worse when the baby is sick too.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Nah, Buffy was just upset they excluded her, that it was not Spuffel.

Also, it may be a commentary on slash phenomenon (I wrote something like that on Whedonesque), i.e. what if some part of it is due to women conditioned to underestimate their sex to the point of even excluding women from their dream couples? Hooking up guys in their minds because women are just not that interesting to play with?
I'm not sure about it myself and think that slash phenomenon is complaex and can be explain in many ways, but this part (self-misogyny part) is also there. For example, even hardcore slashers seem to have no problems with hooking guys up with Buffy - because Buffy is a big and interesting character by herself, and deserves to be played with.

I.e. it is not a commentary on male gay people hating women.
It is, as often with Joss, a commentary on women issues, on women inequality.

She is having a meltdown here, where she's considering herself so unworthy of love and normal relationships, so below her guys who were loving her honestly, that even Caleb's words started to haunt her. It is about Buffy self-hatred, as usual.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"For example, even hardcore slashers seem to have no problems with hooking guys up with Buffy - because Buffy is a big and interesting character by herself, and deserves to be played with."

I think thats a wee bit of a sweeping statement as most hardcore slashers wouldn't touch Buffy with a barge poll I'm afraid, as slash by it's very nature it's a man on man action. *g*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Then I thought – nah! Not his intention. This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of? She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen.

I still think she isn't anti. I think what bothered her was being left out. She wants to be included. And funnily enough, she doesn't want to be included. This is her dream!construct of Spike and Angel. She's put them together in her mind, both wanting them and also not being able to have them.


Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Is this a British saying? elisi said it earlier too.

[shapinglight]

Is this a British saying? Elisi said it earlier too.

No, it's a reference to the cheese man in Restless and how much fans speculated about what the individual dreams in that episode meant, only for Joss to say in his commentary that they didn't mean anything. They were just a lot of surreal nonsense, like most dreams.

[yourlibrarian]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

I think that's a brilliant commentary on it. I agree that Joss surely had fun poking at shippers in it, but in the dream Buffy was also thrilled to be getting married, even if it was to Warren, which she would never want to have happen. So I do think that the idea of Spike and Angel preferring one another over her is part of the whole horror of being alone and betrayed, which she's had since the very beginning of the series. I think Buffy's slashiness was well established with the oil wrestling remark and the earlier comic dream with Spike and Angel. And also Joss came out himself to defend the idea of Spike and Angel so I really don't think he meant the idea of Spangel itself,/I> as a joke. I think Joss has his faults but I would be pretty surprised if he expected this to be interpreted as a slam against bisexual or gay men.

On the other hand, bringing Tara back (for some, at last) in a scene where Buffy marries Warren and Willow and Dark Willow are both looking on? I would call that full of meta "hmmmm." I'd be willing to bet he has a lot more grudge harboring against the many people calling him an evil killer of lesbians than people who wanted to see a gay male couple onscreen.

[shapinglight]

I'd be willing to bet he has a lot more grudge harboring against the many people calling him an evil killer of lesbians than people who wanted to see a gay male couple onscreen.

Oh, I agree. I think the reaction to the killing of Tara, to this day is what upset him most. Which I understand, but kind of upsets me too. He turned my favourite character into a rapist and it doesn't seem to have bothered him at all how much that hurt people. Oh well.

Yes, I get that this whole thing is all about Buffy and how unworthy she feels. Like I said, in the end, that's really all you can do - try and think about what is the Buffy of it.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Y'know, I didn't wanna say nothing, but when I saw the comic, my squee was dampened by awareness that 1) it's a dream sequence and 2) it's all off-camera, anyway. It's like slash is just a joke. I don't think they could ever seriously approach Spangel. *sigh*

Equal time for hot gay boy kissage! On screen Kiss! I demand it!!
*starts letter-writing campaign*

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Yesh! That's exactly what I thought!

*joins campaign!*

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

also - has it been confirmed that the bridesmaid is Tara? I keep looking at the picture and seeing either Anya or Amy. I mean, I thought Amy first, but then thought, no, she's not that major of a character, it should be Anya...

Really doesn't look like Tara to me.

But then, I often felt that Buffy was filled with way, way too many skinny blonde women to keep them all straight! :P

[shapinglight]

It doesn't look like Tara at all, but it is. You cam tell from the bullet hole in her shirt. In fact, the more I look at Jo Chen's Spike, the less he looks like Spike (though he's still pretty).

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Cheese!

No, I thought about all after the squee died down. Though to be frank, the one thing I'm still not over is the fact that all male homosexual relationships are portrayed with humor, while straight and lesbian always get that dab of seriousness. For once, it'd be nice to see Spangel portrayed with real sincerity, to hell with the shippers. Joss used to be bold and push the envelope on the expected--but not anymore. And serious Spangel will never happen, seems like.

In way, I think he's a hypocrite. I have for a long time, and Joss still hasn't shown me otherwise. Waaaaaaaaah!

(Still, Jo Chen, Spangel... LOVE! :D)

[shapinglight]

The squee! was very infectious to start with.

And serious Spangel will never happen, seems like.

I'm afraid not. Joss won't ever go there. I dunno if he's so much a hypocrite though, as a typical fanboy.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

This is Buffy’s nightmare, as I said, so apparently Spike and Angel preferring each other to her is one of the worst things she can think of.

This.

I mean, really, I think the Simpson's comic of BtVS had it right with Lisa envisioning Angel and Spike and saying (paraphrased due to poor memory) "This must be what Archie felt like with both Betty and Veronica after him. I like it!"

[shapinglight]

I haven't seen this BtVS Simpson's comic. I'd love to, though. Is it available online anywhere, do you think?

[ex_peasant441]

I think I agree with flake_sake, I reckon Joss is poking some fun at slashers whilst having a go at Spuffies and Bangels at the same time. He seems to be saying 'here is my beautiful feminist heroine and you take her two love interests and stick them together - what do you want to happen to her? Go off and have the big dream wedding with skinned Warren?' The big dream wedding being, as I understand it, every true feminist's worst nightmare.

[shapinglight]

You could well be right.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of?

I really don't think so. It's not about Spike or Angel, but about Buffy feeling left out of everything. Disconnected. The issue isn't that Buffy thinks Spike and Angel prefer each other to her, but that she doesn't see herself as worthy of either of them. (That said, I agree with some commenters re: the problems that f/f relationships get the same treatment as any other, whereas m/m relationships are mostly treated as jokes.)

Note that in her wedding fantasy, not one of the people who supposedly care about her are present and looking happy (Willow is dominated by Dark Willow, Xander is Twilight (-related), Dawn and Giles and Joyce and everyone else is nowhere to be found). Buffy sees herself as having wed herself to the bad side, and starting to realise that it's her own doing.

Of course, one could argue that it really is all her own doing, that we still haven't gotten any proper explanation for why the hell she's chosen to put herself in that position, and why she doesn't just start acting like herself. But of course, we know that won't be explained.

no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless

Having just listened to his solo on the Dr Horrible commentary musical, I'm not so sure about that. ;-) But what does he expect?

[shapinglight]

It's not about Spike or Angel, but about Buffy feeling left out of everything. Disconnected. The issue isn't that Buffy thinks Spike and Angel prefer each other to her, but that she doesn't see herself as worthy of either of them.

Yes, I get that really. It's just a matter of reminding oneself that it's All About Buffy.

(That said, I agree with some commenters re: the problems that f/f relationships get the same treatment as any other, whereas m/m relationships are mostly treated as jokes.)

Elsewhere, this has been put down to straight male insecurity about homosexuality. Make a joke out of it and it's not so threatening. Mind if I ask (not knowing your orientation), does that seem a reasonable assumption re: Joss to you?

ETA: if you do mind, I'm very sorry. Didn't mean to be either nosey or insensitive.

Of course, one could argue that it really is all her own doing, that we still haven't gotten any proper explanation for why the hell she's chosen to put herself in that position, and why she doesn't just start acting like herself. But of course, we know that won't be explained.

Heh! Of course not. Have, however, seen one rather radical interpretation of this flimsy little tale, which is that lumping Spike and Angel in with Caleb and the wedding from hell is a slap in the face to those readers who have questioned Buffy's actions, because to do so is to uphold the patriarchy (as exemplified by Caleb). In other words, even questioning Buffy's actions makes you the Enemy (or, presumably, having any interest at all in her love life).

Having just listened to his solo on the Dr Horrible commentary musical, I'm not so sure about that. ;-)

Really? Why? What does he say?

[lyr]

I interpreted it as Buffy's nightmare not so much Spike and Angel slashiness, but the fact that they didn't want her to be a part of it. Because she was perfectly happy with a threesome fantasy, wasn't she? I think it's the being excluded she's afraid of.

[shapinglight]

Hi. I'm so sorry not to have answered this before. Yes, I take on board what most people have said. It's Buffy's exclusion that upsets her, not the slashiness as such.