More thoughts about the web comic

[shapinglight]

Have to say one thing for this Buffy web comic – it’s the first time for a long time that I’ve found myself over-thinking anything to do with the Buffy comics in general (possibly something to do with the beautiful art. Doubt I’d be feeling the same if Jeanty had drawn this).

Unfortunately, the more I think about it, the more there is that makes me go, hmmm!



Thing is, once I got over the initial squee! at the Spangel-ness of it, I of course found myself thinking about the context in which it happens, which is in Buffy’s nightmares.

This led me to two places, first of which is a touch of irritation with people who were upset by it. I mean, come on. Fair’s fair. Both Bangel and Spuffy got enough in the show that both groups can claim to have won (or at least drawn) and they need only watch their DVDs if they want to see it all again. Spangel ‘shippers, despite whatever Joss said in his episode commentaries for AtS season 5, got an unfinished sentence from Spike in AtS’s penultimate episode, and that’s it. So yes, I was a little peeved that some people couldn’t get past their ‘shipping preferences and be pleased for us, especially considering that many people aren’t reading the comic, don’t consider it canon, and even in the comics ‘verse it’s not even real. Buffy’s dreaming it.

Then I sort of shrugged. This is just Joss, I thought. It's his way. He’s poking fun at the two major ‘shipping groups here, and using Spangel to do it, while poking fun at the Spangels too, and 'shippers will be 'shippers and they want what they want.

And then of course I reached an even lower place (and I’m not the only one, it seems, see ruuger’s post) where I suddenly got quite annoyed at the way the Spangel in this scene was presented. This is Buffy’s nightmare, as I said, so apparently Spike and Angel preferring each other to her is one of the worst things she can think of. Also, before she sees them, she sees the arch-misogynist Caleb who reminds her that she’s just a ‘dirty girl,’ in contrast to the ‘clean boys.’ Then I realised that you could, if you so chose, interpret this scene to mean that Joss is portraying male homosexuals as nasty woman-haters (some are, no doubt, but so are many straight men), or at best making them into a big joke.

Then I thought – nah! Not his intention. This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of? She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen. Then I thought, well, Joss should be a bit more careful, and I felt grumpy, and lost my squee entirely. :(

Oh well, no doubt Joss would be thrilled to think people were taking his work apart with a fine toothcomb looking for hidden meanings the way they did with Restless. Shall just have to cling to the knowledge that in the end all the wild speculation about that episode was just that; speculation. And it won’t stop me nabbing some icons, because we may never get to see Jo Chen draw Spike and Angel again.

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Then I thought – nah! Not his intention. This is all about Buffy and her state of mind, but that just led me back to, is Spike and Angel getting it on really the worst thing Buffy can think of? She didn’t seem so anti the idea in Chosen.

I still think she isn't anti. I think what bothered her was being left out. She wants to be included. And funnily enough, she doesn't want to be included. This is her dream!construct of Spike and Angel. She's put them together in her mind, both wanting them and also not being able to have them.


Cheese. It was all about cheese.

Is this a British saying? elisi said it earlier too.

[shapinglight]

Is this a British saying? Elisi said it earlier too.

No, it's a reference to the cheese man in Restless and how much fans speculated about what the individual dreams in that episode meant, only for Joss to say in his commentary that they didn't mean anything. They were just a lot of surreal nonsense, like most dreams.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Ah gotcha. Well, I was saying earlier in another discussion that I think there is meaning intended. I mean, you know my own take on it. But regardless of what the meaning is, I can't really view the dream as all cheese. Parts of it probably are cheese, but not all of it.

I think to view it that way or to even view it as Joss primarily working to make fun of shippers is a disservice not only to him, but also a commentary on his lack of respect for his co-workers, especially Chen. So the story goes, Allie wanted to do a special MDHP (obviously the Myspace fell apart unexpectedly) to commemorate the end of the second year of MDHP's. He'd already gotten Jo Chen to agree to do the art and asked Joss if he'd write something. Joss responded to the effect 'If Jo's drawing it, I'll have to.' This reads to me that Chen's work is worth more than potshots at shippers or cheese.

I think there is a line where you can read more than is intended obviously (that's why my own analysis has so many question marks and "perhaps" in it - because while I can read meaning and resonance, it doesn't make it intended), but that there is a lot of intent nonetheless. And of course, meaning isn't solely about intent anyways but about interpretation - that's why so many people are upset about Always Darkest, right? I think sadly some may be mistaking interpretation for intent though and castigating Whedon for it.

[shapinglight]

I think sadly some may be mistaking interpretation for intent though and castigating Whedon for it.

I don't think that's so. I think they're castigating him for thoughtlessness.

[quinara]

Cheese. It was all about cheese.

I thought this was a reference to Restless and all the comments Joss has made over the years that fans shouldn't read too much into the dreams, especially the Cheeseman (since supposedly he did it for the lulz).

[quinara]

Ignore me, I'm irrelevant. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I shall not! I refuse.

(I stubbornly believe that this "cheese" thing is a British saying and shapinglight and elisi are talking to each other in code. And that you somehow understand the code. Are you British? Ye gods, I'm surrounded!)

[quinara]

Ee by guvna, how's your father if it ain't my cuppa tea. Brolly. ;)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Hee!

The British invasion has begun. Or wait - am I technically invading Britain since I'm on shapinglight's LJ?

[quinara]

am I technically invading Britain

Almost certainly. Though I don't think 'invasion' is the right word since there's NO CHANCE OF ESCAPE... What am I saying??

[angearia.livejournal.com]

NO CHANCE OF ESCAPE

Well, okay then. So what do y'all have to eat around here? Biscuits? Bangers and mash? Fish and chips? And can someone please teach me all the British swear words. I only know the ones Spike used and I really would like to jumpstart this acclimating process.

[quinara]

*cracks knuckles* OK... Well, you need to cut out 'y'all' for a start. Blaspheme like you've never blasphemed before (Christ, Jesus, for God's/Christ's sake), unless you actually find it offensive, in which case Gordon Bennett and other hilarious phrases should be on standby. Er... This might take a while.

Cake or death will be served shortly.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Of course. Bloody right. Christ, you Brits make splendid sense, oy.

And cake, please.

[quinara]

Closer, though you sound a bit like bad!Spike... Stretch the irony a bit further at the beginning and reel it in at the end so the Christ becomes more about exclamatory bewilderment (it mixes better with understatement than straight irony) - something like 'Oh, obviously. Christ, you Brits don't half make things complicated, do you?'.

Well, we're out of cake! We only had three bits and we didn't expect such a rush. /gratuitous Izzard

[angearia.livejournal.com]

But it's funnier if I do it badly...oy.

And damn. So my only choice is "or else?" I'll have the chicken, then.

[quinara]

To you maybe...

:D

[angearia.livejournal.com]

But, you see, I'm very generous. I do it badly. You get to gently mock. I'm taking one for the team. ;)

[quinara]

But the problem is that every time someone says 'cor' an English fairy dies. They've almost all gone!!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Hey, you just said the word that we're not supposed to say that you just said! You're killing English fairies as we speak. Oh, poor little bits.

[quinara]

Er, that one was a martyr for the cause of making my point.

*rushes off to do fairy CPR*