Yet more Buffy comic thoughts
Jul. 3rd, 2009 09:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
shapinglightI know, I know. It's silly to make yet another post when I still haven't answered all the comments from the last two, let alone responded to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
peasant_ and yourlibrarian on peasant_'s very interesting post about dark fic. In truth, since M came home, I'm finding it quite difficult to snatch LJ time in the evenings.
Even so, this web comic thing is still on my mind and I can't help wittering on.
I will do a review of the latest Buffy comic later on, if I can. I went down the comic shop yesterday and came back with a fair amount of stuff, including that, the latest Lynch/Urru AtS book (which happily totally ignores events in the execrable Aftermath), two copies of The Sword (pretty much non-stop ultra-violence, as it turned out), and the latest Authority. This last, of course, contains one genuine example of a gay male relationship in mainstream comics not treated as a joke, in the Midnighter and Apollo. They're not always well written. Warren Ellis was good at it, Garth Ennis less so, because by his own admission he thinks Apollo's boring. Even so, in his short-lived run on the defunct Midnighter series, he did manage to include one issue that was actually a rather beautiful gay love story. Okay, the end was a bit of a cliche, but even so...Even Comic Shop Boy liked that one.
Anyway, Apollo and the Midnighter are currently going through a very bad patch indeed, but somehow or other their relationship is still kind of romantic in the midst of all the frightfulness. So it can be done.
I didn't get to chat with Comic Shop Boy much, as he was deep in conversation with another customer (Batman and Wolverine were the subjects, or was it Batman vs Wolverine? Can't remember). Comic Shop Bloke was there too, though, so I asked him if he knew what the content has to be for a comic to be slapped with the 'adult content' label. Had some idea that, whereas lipstick lesbianism is probably thought to be something the more 'delicate' fanboys can cope with, comics companies may feel they have to slap anything with overt male homosexual content with a warning, hence the off-screen kissing in the Whedon/Chen web comic. Comic Shop Bloke had no idea. He said that his only criterion was that nothing with an adult content label would be sold to anyone under 16 in his shop. Over 16, they can read 'whatever filth they want' (my words as part of a jokey conversation, not his).
So, that's not an avenue worth exploring as to why no onscreen kissage, and I suppose Joss's thought processes have been revealed by Scott Allie in the Q&A he's currently doing on Slayalive anyway. The Spangel stuff was 'fan service' to a particular 'shipper group (that's us, fellow Spangels), Scott Allie 'laughed his ass off' when he saw it, and thought it worked better (as a joke) to have the kissing off screen with the just the sound effects and Buffy's reactions. In response to someone asking if there would ever be m/m on screen kissing in the Buffy comic, he responded that he didn't know but it was a 'valid question.'
So, Joss was doing us slash fans a favour, by his own lights. Fair enough. Thanks, Joss. And I would be a lot more appreciative if it weren't that, as others have pointed out, he has a very poor track record when it comes to dealing with male homosexuality, along the lines of it's either a joke (Andrew, Scott Hope turning out to be gay, this Spangel scene in Buffy's nightmare, Joss saying in one of his DVD commentaries that the 'that one time' Spangel scene in his head is 'hilarious'), or the person ends up dead (Larry). Plus, as pointed out above, it is possible to include gay male characters in mainstream comics without making them a joke.
Oh well. Maybe next time, Joss?
peasant_ and yourlibrarian on peasant_'s very interesting post about dark fic. In truth, since M came home, I'm finding it quite difficult to snatch LJ time in the evenings. Even so, this web comic thing is still on my mind and I can't help wittering on.
I will do a review of the latest Buffy comic later on, if I can. I went down the comic shop yesterday and came back with a fair amount of stuff, including that, the latest Lynch/Urru AtS book (which happily totally ignores events in the execrable Aftermath), two copies of The Sword (pretty much non-stop ultra-violence, as it turned out), and the latest Authority. This last, of course, contains one genuine example of a gay male relationship in mainstream comics not treated as a joke, in the Midnighter and Apollo. They're not always well written. Warren Ellis was good at it, Garth Ennis less so, because by his own admission he thinks Apollo's boring. Even so, in his short-lived run on the defunct Midnighter series, he did manage to include one issue that was actually a rather beautiful gay love story. Okay, the end was a bit of a cliche, but even so...Even Comic Shop Boy liked that one.
Anyway, Apollo and the Midnighter are currently going through a very bad patch indeed, but somehow or other their relationship is still kind of romantic in the midst of all the frightfulness. So it can be done.
I didn't get to chat with Comic Shop Boy much, as he was deep in conversation with another customer (Batman and Wolverine were the subjects, or was it Batman vs Wolverine? Can't remember). Comic Shop Bloke was there too, though, so I asked him if he knew what the content has to be for a comic to be slapped with the 'adult content' label. Had some idea that, whereas lipstick lesbianism is probably thought to be something the more 'delicate' fanboys can cope with, comics companies may feel they have to slap anything with overt male homosexual content with a warning, hence the off-screen kissing in the Whedon/Chen web comic. Comic Shop Bloke had no idea. He said that his only criterion was that nothing with an adult content label would be sold to anyone under 16 in his shop. Over 16, they can read 'whatever filth they want' (my words as part of a jokey conversation, not his).
So, that's not an avenue worth exploring as to why no onscreen kissage, and I suppose Joss's thought processes have been revealed by Scott Allie in the Q&A he's currently doing on Slayalive anyway. The Spangel stuff was 'fan service' to a particular 'shipper group (that's us, fellow Spangels), Scott Allie 'laughed his ass off' when he saw it, and thought it worked better (as a joke) to have the kissing off screen with the just the sound effects and Buffy's reactions. In response to someone asking if there would ever be m/m on screen kissing in the Buffy comic, he responded that he didn't know but it was a 'valid question.'
So, Joss was doing us slash fans a favour, by his own lights. Fair enough. Thanks, Joss. And I would be a lot more appreciative if it weren't that, as others have pointed out, he has a very poor track record when it comes to dealing with male homosexuality, along the lines of it's either a joke (Andrew, Scott Hope turning out to be gay, this Spangel scene in Buffy's nightmare, Joss saying in one of his DVD commentaries that the 'that one time' Spangel scene in his head is 'hilarious'), or the person ends up dead (Larry). Plus, as pointed out above, it is possible to include gay male characters in mainstream comics without making them a joke.
Oh well. Maybe next time, Joss?
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no subject
Date: 2009-07-03 09:36 am (UTC)Oh god, now I'm even more pissed off I'm afraid. Grrr.
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Date: 2009-07-03 10:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-04 02:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-04 06:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-04 02:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-03 09:44 am (UTC)I am biased though because the more I think about how he deals with gender and sexuality on the whole the more annoyed and ranty I become.
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Date: 2009-07-04 02:56 pm (UTC)To be honest, I find the story pretty dull too. I think I keep reading it in the hope that it'll suddenly get interesting, but so far that hasn't really happened. Occasionally, I enjoy something. I enjoyed the Dracula arc, for instance, but once it was over, it just made it so clear how Buffy and co need a character like Dracula to bounce off, if you see what I mean.
On the whole I'm inclined to think that Whedon's treatment of homosexuality doesn't go beyond 'lipstick lesbianism' and is nothing like as radical as he seems to think.
In the absence of zero evidence to the contrary, I agree. Where issues of gender and sexuality are concerned, I think you have to at least give him points for trying.
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Date: 2009-07-03 10:21 am (UTC)(How can anything this self-referential/fourth-wall-breaking/a-better-description-of-what-it-is ever be put forward as canon, that's what I want to know? He might as well have all the characters fall into some cracky body-duplicator, kill of all the originals, dump the copies into every 'ship possible and have done with it. Everybody's happy! ...)
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Date: 2009-07-04 03:00 pm (UTC)Possibly. At any rate, Xawn (Dander?) is looking pretty likely at the moment.
(How can anything this self-referential/fourth-wall-breaking/a-better-description-of-what-it-is ever be put forward as canon, that's what I want to know?
Well, it's not the first time Joss has done something in reaction to something the fans have done. I daresay he's aware that a lot of the interest in the comic comes from 'shippers and this is his way of giving them all the two fingers and telling them they're looking at the wrong thing.
Trouble is, if he really wants to make me involved with this comics story, he's going to have to make it less dull first. BtVS was never dull. The comic frequently is. Buffy and co need an ambiguous character like Angel, Spike or indeed Dracula to reflect off (if you see what I mean). On their own, they're not nearly as interesting.
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Date: 2009-07-04 06:29 pm (UTC)So agreed on the dullness... Though I think the Scoobies et al. could be interesting if it wasn't so clear that they're going to come out OK in the end. Which is probably what you mean, but if there was at least a slight doubt that Buffy's issues weren't going to be fixed with a last-minute epiphany and the superfriends weren't going to stay best buds forever, then Joss might have something.
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Date: 2009-07-06 03:43 pm (UTC)Agreed. It's so obvious already what will happen in a more general sense that the details are hard to get excited about.
I'm afraid I don't find the scoobies very interesting in themselves. It's in how they interact with the bizarre supernatural world they find themselves in that I find the interest. Without that, they're just American high school kids and drama series about those are a dime a dozen.
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Date: 2009-07-06 03:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-07 11:04 am (UTC)It certainly looks that way at the moment. I know I should find Willow interesting but I just - don't. Never have. Nor Xander. Buffy, though...
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Date: 2009-07-07 11:25 am (UTC)I'm with you on Buffy (as all the fic I have about her probably shows). Comics!Buffy is worryingly falling closer to Too-Stupid-To-Live Land though.
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Date: 2009-07-14 03:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-04 11:36 pm (UTC)And yes, actually, I do think the Bander was fan service as well.
Trouble is, if he really wants to make me involved with this comics story, he's going to have to make it less dull first. BtVS was never dull. The comic frequently is.
Yes, and the diversity of writers doesn't help because I have never yet read something Joss wrote and not laughed at something, or really appreciated a clever line. But I have found the comics uneven and less interesting the farther I went along.
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Date: 2009-07-06 03:34 pm (UTC):) I didn't actually know what 'dander' meant until
And yes, actually, I do think the Bander was fan service as well.
It could well have been, though I didn't actually see much Bander in the first place myself.
Yes, and the diversity of writers doesn't help
It's weird, because of course the show was an ensemble effort with Joss overseeing, but somehow that doesn't seem to be working nearly as well here. Having said which, so far, the issues written by ex-show writers seem to me to be the ones that have worked best. Except Joss's own, of which I've only really liked 1. The only time I've laughed was while reading the Xander/Dracula stuff, because it was just so utterly ridiculous.
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Date: 2009-07-03 10:43 am (UTC)In "Always Darkest" I don't really see, how they could have taken it seriously, but there were many points before that where it would have been no problem to introduce a serious m/m ship and they decided not to.
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Date: 2009-07-04 03:04 pm (UTC)Well, since Lorne never expressly stated that he was gay in the first place that's not really surprising.
In "Always Darkest" I don't really see, how they could have taken it seriously, but there were many points before that where it would have been no problem to introduce a serious m/m ship and they decided not to.
I'm not sure I see many opportunities in the comics story, but there were plenty of opps when the show was on air. Possibly, the WB just wouldn't let them, but that's the kind of story that tends to leak out and it never has.
I'm afraid the more I think about it, the less I like Always Darkest.
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Date: 2009-07-03 03:30 pm (UTC)Scott Allie showed himself out of tune and generally dumb about themes of Buffyverse so many times now (see Spike and Spuffy), that I wouldn't take whatever he says seriously.
But I agree that the constant joke they make out of gay relationship is tiresome. And Joss is guilty of it too. Is it maybe straight male insecurity subconsicously acting up?
I wish the kiss wouldn't be cut off, and that at some point m/m relationship would be treated seriously by Joss.
I feel like he is trying, and he does see it seriously, especially with Spangel stuff, but can't help giggling over it as an immature teenager.
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Date: 2009-07-04 03:08 pm (UTC)Scott Allie showed himself out of tune and generally dumb about themes of Buffyverse so many times now (see Spike and Spuffy), that I wouldn't take whatever he says seriously.
I hope you're right, Nata. It's very frustrating to have to hear pretty much everything about this comic through such a mouthpiece.
But I agree that the constant joke they make out of gay relationship is tiresome. And Joss is guilty of it too. Is it maybe straight male insecurity subconsicously acting up?
Probably. Have to admit, I've never really understood that, but from what I've seen of American TV, it seems to be very prevalent there. :(
I feel like he is trying, and he does see it seriously, especially with Spangel stuff, but can't help giggling over it as an immature teenager
He may think he's trying, but unless he can get past the giggling (which I agree is how this whole thing comes across), he'll never get anywhere. And after this, I'm not sure I agree he takes Spangel seriously, though of course he did say the quote in my icon on Whedonesque, so that's something. I just wish he'd come on to slap down that annoying Vampmogs boy the other day.
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Date: 2009-07-03 11:14 pm (UTC)Gaaack.
By forcing his own opinions and preferences into the story, he is fast becoming a hypocrite to me. He claims to be the major force of feminism, change, ect, and yet he keeps acting like a horny teenage fanboy. He probably still has the capability of making me love him again--he's still a rather good writer/director in other genres--but something about the Buffyverse makes him stupid, methinks.
Anyway, I wonder what the reaction would be if Spangel ever did get an onscreen kiss? A serious one, I mean. Allie would probably choke on himself, but maybe the fanbase reaction will surprise. Or not.
Either way, I'd love to see it. To just be daring again, like Hush or OMWF or Willow/Tara's first kiss... the idea isn't to please the fanbase or your idiot cohorts--it's to show them different ways of thinking, to prove that things once unheard of can be done, done well, and done seriously. For me, Joss hasn't been daring and unconventional in the Buffyverse in a long, long time, and yet he does things like Dr Horrible and I squee. I wonder why that is? There's an old writer addage about killing your darlings--maybe he's been involved in the verse for so long, that he's lost with what it's really about?
*stops ranting*
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Date: 2009-07-04 03:12 pm (UTC)NO argument here.
In fact, I find the lipstick lesbian thing insulting too, because he only seems to like it for shiny girl on girl action, which is less about proving you can do a serious gay relationship and maintain it in mainstream (like Willow/Tara), and more about "ooh, buy this book because we have BOOBIES!"
Yep. Whether Joss intends it or not, that's an accusation that can be laid at the door of this Buffy comic all too easily. There's been an awful lot of female nudity in it, mostly quite gratuitous.
There's an old writer addage about killing your darlings--maybe he's been involved in the verse for so long, that he's lost with what it's really about?
This is entirely possible.