BSG - the end

[shapinglight]

Well, that's that, then. It's no longer possible for anyone to spoiler me for BSG. :breathes a sigh of relief:

Brief (because of ongoing pain in hands) thoughts behind cut. Spoilers for BSG season 4.2 (or season 5, as it's known this side of the Pond) behind cut.



Okay, so I've managed to avoid most spoilers, but seen enough to take on board that a lot of people weren't happy with this ending. Can't say I really understand why, though.

Okay, so I'm not saying it was perfect. In fact, I can see some big, stonking problems with it myself as far as logic goes, plus some troubling undercurrents which I suspect the writers weren't even aware of, which applies to the whole season/half-season, not just the finale. I can also see why, if a person was, say, a huge Starbuck/Apollo 'shipper, they might feel a bit cheated by what happened at the end. However, for the most part, I found the finale very satisfying emotionally. There were characters I would have liked to see more of over the course of the season- Leoben, for instance, though it's cool that ultimately he was right about Kara - and some plot lines seemed a bit pointless - the stuff with Tigh and Caprica 6 and their stillborn baby, especially as Caprica ended up back with Baltar anyway, and it was clear that Tigh's feelings for Ellen had never really wavered. I also hated what happened to Dee. I wanted her to be there right at the end. I think the character deserved that after all she'd been through. Wasn't too keen on the Tori subplot either.

Those things aside, though, there was an awful lot of stuff I liked, including the reappearance of Ghost!Caprica 6 and Ghost!Baltar as rather supercilious 'angels', and the fact that though some beloved characters died and others got a happy ending, there was hanging over everything the sense of a vicious cycle going around and around over millennia on one planet after another. Good old BSG. It can always find the black cloud outside the silver lining.

I also liked that some of the deepest and most enduring romances in the show were between older characters. Whatever you may think of Ellen, it was clear she and Tigh really had something, as did Adama and Roslin (and her death was the only time in the finale when I teared up) and really what can you say about the bromance between Tigh and Adama except, damn that was well done!

Have to admit that I also adored the fact that my favourite version of All Along the Watchtower ended up being the theme song of the series. I don't think there's a better song to evoke the sense of scary desolation eating at the edges of civilisation than that.

So, anyway, thoughts? Opinions? Or if you're all talked out about it now, can you point me towards anything the show writers had to say when the dust had settled? Also, those of you who've seen Caprica, what did you think of it (no spoilers please)? And when is the final BSG movie coming out - the one from the cylons' POV?

Comments

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

I'm not an Apollo/Starbuck shipper in a fandom sense, but they were my go-to couple of the series. However, I didn't feel cheated; I absolutely loved how they finished Starbuck's story. In fact when she disappeared I cried like a baby (and on every viewing since) - I think it was a perfect ending for her.

I actually continued crying from that point on in that final episode to when the credits rolled; Sam, Starbuck and Roslin - all were dealt with wonderfully. I even teared up when the Centurians were given their freedom - I'm such a sap.

I had no little niggles with the final series; it somehow all worked out for me. I could understand why they had to have a major character suicide at the start of S5, as it needed something like that to show the complete lack of hope that they were all suffering from and how those feelings could lead to mutiny and the eventual do-or-die mission to save Hera.

I also loved that Baltar, my favourite character, got the last word with All Along the Watchtower plaving in the background.

Supreme telly :-)

[shapinglight]

However, I didn't feel cheated; I absolutely loved how they finished Starbuck's story.

I didn't cry, but I felt the same. I thought the ending of her story was pretty much perfect. Would just have liked one more bit of interaction between herself and Leoben.

I also loved that Baltar, my favourite character, got the last word with All Along the Watchtower plaving in the background.

I liked that too, actually. The cynicism of the ending - at least as I saw it - was rather refreshing. That said, I did like that Real Baltar came good.

I could understand why they had to have a major character suicide at the start of S5, as it needed something like that to show the complete lack of hope that they were all suffering from and how those feelings could lead to mutiny and the eventual do-or-die mission to save Hera

Yes, I understand that. I just wish it hadn't been Dee (though I can't think who else it could have been).

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you liked but I'm still mad at them for the finale. The personal stuff was all nice and dandy and very moving (especially Roslin and Adama)but the plot blew to hell.

The whole complicated net of clues, prophesis and plans (or not plans) for a cheap deus ex machina ending. God did it. It just annoyed me. I saw it coming when they spontaniously decided on the final five, but the extend of it still annoyed me. Everybody mysterious is angel of the lord.

I'm not sure if I can ever get past the ruined plot. I loved the characters, but in the later seasons some of them got just to crazy/angsty for my liking and I was mainly invested in finding out what it was all about.

I'll wait for "the plan" and for the DVDs to cheapen to find out if I can bring myself to buy them.

I saw Caprica and I liked it. But it's already starting with a mystery plot again and after feeling so cheated by BSG I'm not sure if I want to watch it if they haven't thought it through anyway.

Sorry to be so negative, mystery for mystery's sake is just a big nono for me.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty much this. There's some excellent character stuff in it, but the plot, the way they essentially just ignored most of the previous 4 years to get to the same ending as vol 2 of The Hitch-hiker's Guide To The Galaxy except voluntarily, the epilogue, the "everything is preordained" message... jeez.

This article (summarized here), while pretty harsh, does a fine job of outlining the problems, and I agree with much (if not all) of it.

But yes, yay for at least getting to hear one good cover of "Watchtower" before it was over. :-)

[shapinglight]

God did it. It just annoyed me. I saw it coming when they spontaniously decided on the final five, but the extend of it still annoyed me. Everybody mysterious is angel of the lord.

I really don't think it was as simple as that, but even if it was, it's not like there wasn't enough stuff about God and angels during the course of the story to point to such an ending being possible. I actually thought the final scene between Ghost!Baltar and Ghost!Caprica (or Angel!Baltar and Angel!Caprica, if you like) came across as rather downbeat and cynical. God didn't really save everyone. Most of them died, and those that remained sank away into the landscape and were forgotten forever. I liked that. But then I've enjoyed the dream sequences/mystical stuff all along and am glad that side of it ended on an ambiguous note rather than an endorsement of religion!yay!

So I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the solution to the mystery as being out of left field or a disappointment.

Not saying it was perfect either.

[ringthebells]

Dave and I both loved the ending (with reservations and what-the-hell? moments, sure, but overall: love). So I was a bit perplexed to go online afterwards and find out that most of the internet had hated it with a passion.

I have vague ambitions of writing a long post about why I didn't hate it, but probably that'll never happen (considering my lack of writing time!).

[shapinglight]

So I was a bit perplexed to go online afterwards and find out that most of the internet had hated it with a passion.

Yes, must admit, I'm perplexed too, having just seen it. I hope you write your post. I would love to read it.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I found it a bit too religious.
Also, I was kind-of hoping the humans and cylons could all get along, but I can also appreciate how easy it is for something to get cocked-up at the last minute. Neither loved nor hated it - it felt a bit anti-climactic.

[shapinglight]

I found it a bit too religious.

Well, it's not like that element hadn't been there from the start. In fact, it was one of the strongest themes in the show.

Also, I was kind-of hoping the humans and cylons could all get along, but I can also appreciate how easy it is for something to get cocked-up at the last minute.

Yes, I was a bit upset about that too, especially as I didn't like the Tori sub plot. Still, at least some of the Cylons got on with the humans - the 2s,6s and 8s. Also, the centurions got their freedom.

[timeofchange.livejournal.com]

Nice commentary. I agree with your thoughts re: the religious element being there right from the start. There was indeed a lot to love about the ending.

[shapinglight]

There was indeed a lot to love about the ending.

I'm glad some people thought so. I've read a few negative posts now and I can hardly believe we watched the same program. I don't think I shall read any more.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I didn't have a problem with the finale, per se, but the 4 episodes leading up to it felt too much like filler. Perhaps the payoff wasn't enough to erase the maudlin soap opera we got just before, for me. I'm not sure. It's a little fuzzy, all these months later.

And ¡yes! to the mature love (well, older anyway). I told you I've been seeing it everywhere, and BSG was a big part of it, though the last Indiana Jones also had it, as did Miss Pettigrew Lives for a Day, and many other American and British productions. I don't remember there ever being a love story between over-40s before the last few years. Even in the 30s and 40s, the closest you came were the Topper movies. Okay, The African Queen is the exception that proves the rule. Anyway, I like it, and hope to see more, although McDiva is totally grossed out. Heh.

[shapinglight]

It's a little fuzzy, all these months later.

Well, my series watch has been so long drawn out that I'm having trouble remembering what happened in those 4 episodes too. Er....

Anyway, I like it, and hope to see more, although McDiva is totally grossed out. Heh.

Hee! Of course Starbuck voiced MdDiva's POV when she said that watching Tigh and Ellen kiss was like watching your parents making out. Must say, I was pleasantly surprised by how little I disliked Ellen in this final run of episodes. Couldn't stand her before.

[next_to_normal]

I liked it a lot. I can see where people have problems with the plot, but hell, if I can overlook Joss Whedon's shitty plotting and continuity foul-ups for the sake of well-written characters, I can overlook this, too. It definitely worked for me on an emotional level, and I felt like the goodbyes for each character were cathartic and appropriate - Starbuck just vanishing, Apollo excited to explore, Roslin and Adama finally getting a chance to rest (I'm tearing up again just thinking about it), the Tighs and the Agathons walking off happily into the future. God, even Baltar's "my father was a farmer" got me.

I don't really get all the complaints about "God did it." Is it really a deus ex machina if the characters have been talking about God's plan since the miniseries? I think if people were expecting anything different, then they probably weren't watching the right show.

I have to say, I was less impressed with Caprica. Again, it's all about the characters. I like Esai Morales, and the girl who plays Zoe, but overall I just didn't connect with them the way I did the BSG characters. It's an interesting situation they're in, but I have to care about what happens to them, not just about what happens next. Then again, I wasn't terribly impressed with the BSG miniseries, either (it was "33" that really made me a fan), so I'll probably give it a few episodes.

[shapinglight]

but hell, if I can overlook Joss Whedon's shitty plotting and continuity foul-ups for the sake of well-written characters, I can overlook this, too

I'd definitely go with this - with the qualifier that I can't overlook the shitty plotting etc in the comic, as the characters aren't well-written either.

Yeah, I thought the characters' farewells were appropriate too. Starbuck has had the strange otherworldly/woman of destiny mystique right from season 1 and I thought her end was very fitting.

God, even Baltar's "my father was a farmer" got me.

Yes, me too, which is astonishing in some ways, as we'd barely heard about his past before, and his father was an entirely new character.

Is it really a deus ex machina if the characters have been talking about God's plan since the miniseries?

I don't think so. I'm actually rather gratified that God and his/her/its plan turned out to be very far from benign and not really an organised religion!yay! atheism!boo! moment at all, which is what I was half-expecting.

I'm looking forward to seeing Caprica whenever I get the chance. I think the only way for it to work would be if it's a whole different kettle of fish from BSG, so we'll see.

33 is the one about the Cylons chasing the fleet from jump point to jump point, isn't it? Yes, that was a great episode.

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

You can count me in the "hated it" crowd. Hated Adama "marrying" Roslin *after* she was dead; hated Starbuck disappearing into thin air with no explanation; not crazy about Head Six and Head Baltar turning out to be angels, or whatever, either. PASSIONATELY hated the way most of the major characters basically went off to die alone, as if the relationships they'd built over the course of the story meant nothing. Of course, little Hera turning out to be our "mitochondrial Eve," does suggest that all the other settlers died off pretty rapidly. That's what bothered me most about it, I think -- that all their sufferings led to an apparent "happy ending" that was really just a lonely death on an alien planet.

Obviously it didn't hit everyone this way -- which is a good thing; I'm glad to know someone was satisfied with it!

[shapinglight]

Hmm, the things you hated about it appear to be the things I loved about it. Oh well. Sorry you didn't enjoy it.

[yourlibrarian]

Can't say I really understand why, though.

I couldn't either, and was rather surprised to hear about the amount of discontent. Then again, while I appreciated BSG a lot as a show I wasn't part of the fandom. so maybe there were issues there I wasn't getting. As for Apollo/Starbuck, I could certainly understand why a shipper might go ballistic but as a non-shipper it seemed to me that they were never going to end up together, no matter what.

some plot lines seemed a bit pointless - the stuff with Tigh and Caprica 6 and their stillborn baby, especially as Caprica ended up back with Baltar anyway, and it was clear that Tigh's feelings for Ellen had never really wavered.

In the long-term sense I could see how this could be seen as pointless, especially as on-air minutes wound down and other things might have been addressed. However, I did see it as important in shedding light on the relationship between Ellen and Tigh which had never been well explained. Plus, given her last minute reappearance as the final Cylon, I thought it helped flesh out Ellen as a character, and her own feelings and motivations as a (re)creator of the Cylon race.

I agree though that Dualla never got the sort of time and development she should have, which led, I suspect, to her seemingly pointless death. Her relationship with Apollo always seemed to come out of the blue to me and I think this was largely because the writers didn't seem to know what to do with her.

Good old BSG. It can always find the black cloud outside the silver lining.

Ha! True. It was a "happy" ending in the context of their verse.

I also liked that some of the deepest and most enduring romances in the show were between older characters.

Hear, hear.

[shapinglight]

Then again, while I appreciated BSG a lot as a show I wasn't part of the fandom. so maybe there were issues there I wasn't getting.

Yes, I've begun to see that, and I'm rather glad I wasn't involved in the fandom now. Went through the whole emotional trauma of being vastly disappointed in a series finale with Chosen back in 2003, and it took me years to realise that Chosen actually wasn't that bad, and it was just the hyper-intensity of fandom and having too high expectations that made me think it was bad.

I think it's probably very, very rare for a series finale not to disappoint a large section of the audience. NFA, for instance. Some people hate it and think it's an unsatisfying cliffhanger. I think it's brilliant. Etc, etc.

As for Apollo/Starbuck, I could certainly understand why a shipper might go ballistic but as a non-shipper it seemed to me that they were never going to end up together, no matter what.

Yep. Pretty much how I saw it. They interested me far more as individuals than as a couple anyway. In fact, that's true of all the characters, with the possible exception of the Agathons, because I take a personal interest in the depiction of mixed-race relationships. I felt Helo and Sharon were a little short-changed from season 3 onwards, but I certainly can't say I was dissatisfied.

However, I did see it as important in shedding light on the relationship between Ellen and Tigh which had never been well explained. Plus, given her last minute reappearance as the final Cylon, I thought it helped flesh out Ellen as a character, and her own feelings and motivations as a (re)creator of the Cylon race.

Yes, you're right. For that reason, it was important, and I found the scene between Tigh and Adama after the baby died very moving. However, I found it bizarre the way Ellen kept stressing to Caprica that Tigh loved her when it was pretty plain to me that he didn't at all. He just used her because he was angry/curious about discovering he was a cylon. That, and the way Caprica was little more than a vessel in the tragedy of her baby dying was one of the things that annoyed me.

Her relationship with Apollo always seemed to come out of the blue to me and I think this was largely because the writers didn't seem to know what to do with her.

Yes, probably. Also, having established the relationship they seem to have decided it was a mistake anyway and did their best to bury it. I'm not sure I agree that Dee didn't get any development, though. For me, she was one of the most memorable characters in the show, which is why I was miffed she didn't make it to the end. Having said which, I think that even with the suicide, she got a better story than Tori.

[queenofthorns.livejournal.com]

Heh! I'm not going to comment in detail because I loathed the ending, and the more I think about it, the more I loathe it. Part of it was the Kara/Lee stuff, but I had a lot of other issues with many, many other things as well (including the fact that Mitochondrial Eve doesn't actually work the way the show posits that it does!) But I'm glad you enjoyed it, anyway :D

[shapinglight]

I'm sorry you felt so let down. Have to admit, I liked it a lot. I've also decided I'm probably better off staying away from the fandom (if it's still around), if most people feel the way you do.

ETA: sorry, that sounds harsh. What I meant was if people are hurt and upset by something you enjoyed it sort of takes the shine off and you're better off not reading it. I hope you aren't offended.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I was actually fairly satisfied by the finale. However, I was a pretty casual fan who wasn't all that enchanted with BSG in general so I freely admit that I didn't have the investment that hard core fans did, and I think this is why I was more accepting of the finale.

[shapinglight]

I loved the show from the first episode, but being so far behind (had to wait for the DVD sets to come out) haven't been part of the fandom. In retrospect, that was probably a good thing. I'm not saying it was a brilliant finale like NFA but I did like it a lot.

[esmerelda-t.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed the BSG finale to an extent that surprised me as I thought series 4.5/5 was on the whole terrible. What redeemed it for me was the character endings were so satisying. Even the characters who died, well Roslin was always going to and it had been obvious for quite a while Kara really was dead. They weren't subtle with the whole 'she's an angel' thing which is why I don't quite get why that came as such a terrible rage inducing shock to some people.

Now the plot, especially once they got to Earth, was nonsense but the plot had been nonsense for quite a while. They'd also lost anything resembling a subtle theme or analogy by that point too. I was over that by the time the finale rolled round and so was happy with the chacacter endings.

I've just seen Caprica over the weekend and thought it was boring. YMMV though.

Oh and I do agree, BSG had it's flaws when it came to portraying women, but there is nothing in popular culture that doesn't and at least it had visible older women.

[shapinglight]

What redeemed it for me was the character endings were so satisying.

Except Tori's. I know her murder of Callie had to come out some time, but can't say I liked what happened. Otherwise, though, I agree. I was satisfied with everyone's endings, though would have like a bigger contribution from Leoben.

And it had been obvious for quite a while Kara really was dead. They weren't subtle with the whole 'she's an angel' thing which is why I don't quite get why that came as such a terrible rage inducing shock to some people.

No, I can't understand it either. It's not like it hadn't been hammered home from her first meeting with Leoben in season 1 that she was a 'woman of destiny.'

Oh and I do agree, BSG had it's flaws when it came to portraying women, but there is nothing in popular culture that doesn't and at least it had visible older women.

Yes, indeed. Not likely to forget a character like Admiral Kane in a hurry. In fact, all the female characters were extremely memorable, which is more than you can say for the men, some of whom were pretty much non-entities.

I didn't think 4.5 was terrible. The mutiny episodes had me on the edge of my seat. The only episode that dragged for me a bit was the one where Starbuck met the ghost of her dad.

[cafedemonde.livejournal.com]

I saw Caprica. It was interesting, but I was kinda stopped short at the ending. But I do recommend watching it.

I liked the ending og BSG. And I cried over Starbuck and God I cried over Anders and I cried over Lee crying over Dee. And how he looked so lost when Starbuck disappeared. I cried over more stuff and at times had to stop the DVD. I normally don't do that but I really got invested in these characters. Tearing up now about Anders again! Dammit!

One thing I liked in was how certain people were headed for certain places on earth and you kinda got an idea of how come certain physical characteristics came to be.

The show was amazing.

[shapinglight]

But I do recommend watching it.

I definitely will if I get the chance.

One thing I liked in was how certain people were headed for certain places on earth and you kinda got an idea of how come certain physical characteristics came to be.

When Tyrol started talking about an island offshore way up north, I did wonder if he meant Britain. Hmm. Yes, I liked that too, even though I think they probably all died before they could pass on their genes.

The show was amazing.

Yes, I agree. The finale didn't make me cry, but there've been many times along the way when the show has deeply moved me. I'll adore Starbuck and Dee forever.