(no subject)

[shapinglight]

So I was thinking about Angelus again (what? It was one of those leather pants moments), and got to thinking this (which again is hardly new for me).

We all know that Spike is rubbish at planning stuff. We also know that Angelus was Spike's 'sire' (whatever exactly that means – but presumably in this case, it means more, 'the person who made me the vampire I am today' rather than 'the person who killed me and made me a vampire'). Seems to me that if you put those two things together, you end up with Spike being a bit unlucky to have such a rotten teacher.

Of course, one could respond that Spike was probably a terrible pupil ('not a quick study' and all that) but then how the hell did he survive all those years alone with the crazy lady, huh? Not saying that Dru is stupid, mind, not at all – but I bet she's really, really bad at map-reading ("No, William, the stars say go straight up!") so someone had to do the practical stuff, didn't they?

Sigh! None of it makes sense. First they tell us Angelus is this big, evil genius, but then they show him making stupid plans that he can't even stick to (he should really stick with the psychological torture, because that's what he's good at, and leave the planning to someone else – like, say, Darla, because I bet that was her job), and not only in BtVS season 2 but again in AtS season 4. And then there's his behaviour in TGiQ (with William looking at him in wide-eyed adoration, so that you end up thinking it's no wonder the poor little chap made a mess of things sometimes, with an example like that to follow). Of course, Angelus suffers from Villain Syndrome, in that he can never win a decisive victory, because the good guys have to triumph in the end (even if this is a Joss show and half of them will have died horrible deaths and the other half will be psychologically scarred for life), so that can't help but make him look kind of stupid sometimes. Still –

Wonder where that goofiness comes from? Did Liam get infected by a particularly goofy demon, or was the goofiness innate? Hard to say – but even Angel has plenty of daft moments; enough to make it pretty clear that he does incredibly stupid things and makes mistakes and sulks and is petty sometimes, just like everyone else.

I like him for that (heroes who are perfect are boring as shit). I like the fact that, like his evil counterpart, he's an idol with feet of clay; but in Angel's case of course, that makes him a person with whom you can laugh and sympathise, whereas with Angelus it just makes you think: "Hmm, evil geniuses are very overrated."

Comments

[elisi]

Hehehehehe! I do love your posts! :)

what? It was one of those leather pants moments

I think that Spike is actually good at planning stuff - he just gets impatient. But when he manages to keep a level head, he's good. Sending the Order of Taraka after Buffy while he searched for Dru's cure f.ex. was very smart. He also found the Gem of Amarra and was probably the only demon to escape from the Initiative.

And I think the goofiness was innate in Liam... Angel and Angelus are both very quick verbally, and that's not really something you can learn.

Must go now - I still have yesterdays dishes to wash! But will be back later! :)

[shapinglight]

Yes, that's true about Spike and planning. Vampires had been looking for the Gem of Amarra for centuries and none of them found it, but he did. Of course, he lost it five minutes later, but that's Spike for you.

In fact, when I got particularly pissed off with the Spike the Idiot stuff in AtS season 5, I wrote ME a letter listing 20 reasons why Spike is not stupid, and the Gem of Amarra thing was one of them.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Spike isn't bad at planning! He just loses interest in it.

A lot depends on his motivation. He found the Gem of Amarra and the DuLac cross - that's not someone incapable of planning and organising (even if it's organising people to do it for him). I'd argue that once he lost power over minions and had to fend for himself, it got a lot more difficult. I suspect he'd plan meticulously if it was for Dru's benefit. He certainly doesn't lack responibilty or practicality (he fixed that crypt up pretty well).

As for the 'quick study' part. I have a theory that because he is left-handed, that he'd always been at a disadvantage at school and was always struggling to keep up because his teacher's would try and force him to use his right hand. I also doubt he went to either of the Oxbridge colleges, and if he went to Uni at all, he went to London which was relatively new at the time. This struggle to get on academically could have led to his problem with paying attention.

I have no Angelus theories.

[shapinglight]

I have no Angelus theories.

Well, I think there are only two, either that he's pretty much infallible and omnipotent (snerk!) or that he's a great big evil doofus. I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between.

As for Spike, I think William went to Oxford, although probably not one of the richer colleges - but then I'm biased because Oxford is my home town. As for the left hand thing, it's very plausible. I really only put that 'quick study' thing in because it's an actual sentence that people could use, if they so chose, as evidence that not only is Spike stupid, but he knows he is.

Don't believe it myself.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I don't think Spike's any genius, but I think his intelligence is above average, and greater than Angel's. He just doesn't use it. I'd be prepared to believe that he's convinced he's not all that brainy.

Even with all the working class masks, he doesn't carry himeslf like an Oxford man imo.

[shapinglight]

Even with all the working class masks, he doesn't carry himeslf like an Oxford man imo.

Well, I don't know. Some of them are very nerdy.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

That's my interpretation of Spike. I think he's quite intelligent, but I think he has A.D.D. As a kid this was probably interpreted as not too smart because a Victorian Public School would NOT be the best place for a child with A.D.D. So he may not think he's smart. But, he is, even if because of his abbreviated attention span it's not always easy to pick it up.

Also, clearly he loves words. He doesn't like to sound like an Oxford man, but he always manages to have a vocabulary that exceeds epectations and it appears at odd moments in the middle of his "lower" language.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

His accent, most of the time, is actually fairly posh too. The old mockney.

I'm not arguing he isn't university educated, but I doubt he's intelligent enough for the Oxbridge colleges - he wouldn't have got into them with A.D.D. Add in the left-handiness and he's done rather well in the circumstances.

[shapinglight]

Ah, but you didn't need to be that intelligent necessarily to go to Oxford in 1870 whatever, you just needed money, and I think William probably had that - what with having the same physician as the Queen and so on.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I have now idea what needed then, but it's the obviousness of Oxbridge that bothers me. There were other universites, and they would all have been open to only a small section of society.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In that time period wasn't it primarily a classist thing, though? I'm not sure exactly how merit based it was in the old days. Since his family clearly was served by the Queen's Physician, I figure there was a relatively high social standing and that Spike was probably a poor student.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I suspect class would have been necessary to enter any University at the time. I just believe Oxbridge was out of his grasp.

He might have been wealthy [family clearly was served by the Queen's Physician] but they aren't Upper Class, more wealthy middle class.

[shapinglight]

Not to mention the sudden reveal that he knows Ancient Greek, in Empty Places.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

And yet he can't tell it isn't proper Latin in What's My Line...

There is no consistency to Spike's education.

It wasn't Greek by the way, it was Latin written with Greek letters. God knows what that tells us.

[shapinglight]

That he knows Greek and Latin really, really well?

More likely, it just tells us that Spike's intelligence, or lack of it, is subject to the whims of plot and whoever happens to be writing him.

[ex-dovil323.livejournal.com]

Nobody should ever estimate the power those leather pants held. Hell, I think they were the masterminds behind Angelus's reigh of terror, especially paired with Mr Eyeliner of evil.

I think both Angelus and Spike were evil and did evil things. I think they also could be complete egets sometimes and completely believed in their own hypte and were peacocks strutting about as their 'womanfoldk' pointed them in the directions they wanted.

Neither of them seem to have any kind of functioning attention span. :D

[shapinglight]

Neither of them seem to have any kind of functioning attention span

Which makes you wonder where Angel got his from. Maybe he got an injection of Serious Hero-ness along with his soul? Maybe reading depressing existentialist novels in French was just part of the whole guilt-trip thing?

As for the Fanged Four, it's easy to see who wore the trousers there (though not the leather pants) and her name began with D and ended with A and had an A an R and an L somewhere in the middle.

[lynnenne]

I think Angelus had an attention span when it came to torturing his victims. He tortured Giles for hours, Buffy for days and Drusilla for weeks. As Angel says in damage, "It was everything to me. It was art." The destruction of a human being was where his passions lay. He remained completely focused on his works of "art," even after he got his soul back. Hence, all the brooding.

You're right when you say he should have stuck to the psychological torture. That's what he was best at.

[shapinglight]

You're right when you say he should have stuck to the psychological torture. That's what he was best at.

Yes, not so good with the big plans but great at that finicky detailed stuff - and looked so good while doing it too. I mean, if you had to choose who you'd be tortured by, there are worse choices.

(God, that was in bad taste!)

[sangpassionne.livejournal.com]

Not awake enough to comment properly, so I'll just giggle instead.

*snerk*

Funny woman. Couldn't have said it better myself. Darla was so the brains of that outfit.

[shapinglight]

Darla was so the brains of that outfit.

Oh, yes! She had Angelus wrapped round her little finger, anyone could see. Bet she chose his clothes for him as well as his victims.

In fact, she's the vampire version of Bree from Desperate Housewives.

[somecandytalkin.livejournal.com]

Hee! I love this!
So true...and BWAH! to the map-reading:)

[shapinglight]

She'd probably get all cross and tear the road atlas to shreds and then try and get out of the car while it was still moving or something.

That Dru! She's so wacky!

[somecandytalkin.livejournal.com]

Hee!
Yeah, she totally whack.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I always default to "In The Dark" where this is concerned.

Spike is perfectly capable of thinking up a good plan... he just gets bored.

Spike is the vampire with ADD. He can think perfectly well. He's an intelligent guy. He just has the attention span of your regular teenage boy who has played too much X-Box. He can't really be patient enough to execute a plan.

Angelus has all the patience in the world, but... well... Angel is rather a linear thinker.

However, I would think the combo of Spike and Angelus could be daunting as Spike has all the inspiration and Angelus has the patience.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Patience with petulance, however. Angelus is patient when everything goes his way. He can ride that wave forever. (Look at his year long stalking of Drusilla and destruction of her family. Or the years long torturing of Holtz). However when things go out of the linear plan that Angelus has he can't adapt. He becomes frustrated and angry and has temper tantrums like a child. So he has patience only when things go his way and according to plan. Otherwise he becomes frustrated and angry and loses patience.

[shapinglight]

Actually, that sums him up pretty well. I'm sure they were very daunting (that bride in the carriage in Destiny probably thought so) but I wouldn't be surprised if, unsouled, they weren't really of much help to each other, whereas with souls, they complement each other rather well.

Interesting, that.

[chase820.livejournal.com]

I'm with everyone who said that Spike is a good planner, but terrible in execution because of his near-pathological impulsiveness.

And I'm not sure if Sunnydale Angelus can be compared with old school Angelus, because I've always gotten the feeling that 100 years of imprisonment made him a bit loonier than normal. He never tried to end the world (that we know of) in those 150 years of evilness, after all.

I also give Dru a little more credit than many. I remember a couple of times in season 2, where she was advising Spike or holding him back during an impulsive moment. Her telling him to go get chanty with the Annoying One and telling him not to eat Ford when he came to offer his underhanded deal re: Buffy spring immediately to mind.

When you think about it, it's not surprising the Fanged Four cut such a swath through Europe. They were a near-perfect balance of talents and personalities, weren't they?

[shapinglight]

And I'm not sure if Sunnydale Angelus can be compared with old school Angelus, because I've always gotten the feeling that 100 years of imprisonment made him a bit loonier than normal. He never tried to end the world (that we know of) in those 150 years of evilness, after all

I put this down to the Absence of Darla factor. She was probably the one who kept Angelus focused enough that he didn't say to himelf at regular intervals, "You know what, screw this, let's end the world. It'll be fun!"

I give Dru plenty of credit, but I still think she was probably a lousy map reader.

And the Fanged Four were lovely, they should reform and cut a new album.

(Sorry. Feeling silly tonight).

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

And the Fanged Four were lovely, they should reform and cut a new album.

Then I'm running to the hills!

[lillianmorgan.livejournal.com]

Did Liam get infected by a particularly goofy demon, or was the goofiness innate?
It's time for the broken record again. Spin the Bottle gives a good impression of what Liam is like (if you take away the fish-out-of-water factor of 20th century living). And he's actually quite scared of Cordelia - which is immensely funny if you think he's supposed to be this drunken Cassanova type figure.
you end up with Spike being a bit unlucky to have such a rotten teacher.
This makes me think, how did Darla teach Angel? Perhaps she was too interested in the studliness to impart her wisdom in the best manner, so it filtered down from there? Then again he took what she taught him and warped it severely - case in point, Drusilla.

[shapinglight]

I think Darla was probably keener on the 'studliness'. Is that a word? I never heard it before, but it's a very good word. She probably got other people to teach Angelus what she wanted him to know. I think she was probably too lazy to do it herself.

[zyrya]

And all that is why my tolerance for persnickety character deconstruction is very, very short. One can barely make sense of some characters over twelve minutes, let alone twelve season-years, and a great many of ME's canon 'facts' are reinterpreted, blurred, forgotten and blatantly changed. In some instances they can't even get character names right ... Cecily Adams (Addams?) becomes the Underwood gel, and I think one of Buffy's exes has two names.

And Spike *can* plan. He gets the Judge together, and heals Dru with Angel's blood, and fractures the Scoobies (until Adam decides he wants them back together again), and he has a great plan to get the chip out (except the damn doctor trousers it), and he goes all the way to Africa for a soul. There's also the Ring of Amara, the Buffybot, chaining up Dru and Buffy and playing them off against each other. His plans don't work because they can't ... structurally, as you say, it's Villain Syndrome, and also because he's strictly a secondary character only there to play off against Buffy and then Angel ... but one can hardly accuse him of not being able to plan.

[shapinglight]

Okay, he can plan. I suppose I should have said quite good at planning but fails in the execution, as I think someone said up above.

And of course, he's perfectly intelligent until suddenly it becomes necessary for him to be stupid. And then he is.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

You have to admit that it's an interesting combo -- his impulsiveness and his persistence.

When Spike is first introduced (by Angel, no less) Angel identifies one of Spike's unfailing characteristics -- dogged determination. And he does have dogged determination... when he cares. But when it's not that important to him he is really just as apt to forget about it or walk away (as he repeatedly tried to talk Dru into doing in late Season 2). It's an odd combination to be indeterable and ADD at the same time. And yet that very contradiction is just SO Spike.

[shapinglight]

Well, I guess that's why so many of us love him. He's a very mutable character, and although a lot of that stems from the fact that, not being the main character, he gets changed as it suits the vagaries of plot, he still holds together as a character very well due to James's wonderful performance, which manages to integrate all these contradictory things.

[zyrya]

I don't think he fails in the execution, either ... it's almost always someone who fails him. Of course, it doesn't help that the writers often didn't go into his plan in any depth ... because, of course, his evil plans weren't going to succeed. (And some of his not-evil plans, like saving Dawn from Doc on the tower). For example, what was he going to do with the Ring of Amara? Just general reign of terror? Or something more convoluted, like using it to get Dru back?

I liked your examination of Angel's goofyness. My SO and I were discussing this the other night, because I don't find Angel at all sexy. Angelus yes ... yes yes yes OMG *swoon* ... but Angel's lighter side is this nerdy goofyness which does nothing for me. But I'd never thought before of where this goofy stuff comes from.

[shapinglight]

Yes, I suppose Spike suffers from Villain Syndrome where his plans are concerned, just like Angelus.

I really don't know where Angel's goofyness comes from, but I do suspect Angelus, simply because if nothing else, he has a sense of humour (mostly, it's humour at other people's expense, but still -).

Liam was a tearaway and a waste of space, but he doesn't seem particularly goofy (or the 18th century equivalent of it), but you never know, of course.

I usually quite like goofy Angel, but I don't find him attractive either.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

First they tell us Angelus is this big, evil genius, but then they show him making stupid plans that he can't even stick to (he should really stick with the psychological torture, because that's what he's good at, and leave the planning to someone else – like, say, Darla, because I bet that was her job), and not only in BtVS season 2 but again in AtS season 4.

I'm never quite sure why you think Angelus is so stupid? The Acathla plan may not have been stupid - we don't really know what the consequences of the world being sucked into Hell would have been for Angelus. He might have ended up sitting very pretty for all we know. And he didn't do too badly in AtS 4. He misjudged Faith and he was forced to temporarily bow his knee to force majeur in the form of Evil Cordy but what else?

[shapinglight]

I'm sorry, it just is the way I see him. I don't know where Angel's intelligence comes from, but I'm afraid I don't think it was from Angelus. More likely, it was from all those years of brooding and trying to improve himself.

As far as I can see, Angelus had no kind of plan in season 4, beyond getting out of that cage. He's a creature of instinct, like all vampires, interested only in immediate gratification, not long-term planning.

He can plan, of course, if it involves a long-drawn-out bout of intense psychological/physical torture, but again that's really just personal gratification, isn't it? As far as I can see, he's no better at planning large-scale things than Spike - and possibly worse at it, and his plans in general work better when they're less ambitious. Planning the torture and destruction of Drusilla in intimate detail, for instance, was probably quite easy for him, whereas planning to end the world, and what the consequences of that might be - less so.

Spike, of course, as people up above have observed, doesn't fail so much in the planning as in the execution, from lack of patience, but I see absolutely no sign that his intelligence was inferior to Angelus's, not matter how much of an oaf he may have acted sometimes. Angelus has plenty of patience, it's true, unlike Spike, but that's about it. He even let Darla choose his victims for him.

Sorry, Pea, that's just the way I see it.