Thoughts on BtVS season 8 No 28 and the Buffy comic in general

[shapinglight]

Back online after the router problems, and here’s my review of the latest Buffy comic at last. It’s actually been quite difficult to write – not the review so much, but my thoughts surrounding this issue, which have made me decide I’m pretty much done with the comic, barring miracles.

Also, big apologies to those of you I buy the comics for. I haven't got around to posting them yet. Will make sure to do so before I go away next week.

Spoilers for Buffy no 28 within



In fact, this isn't really a proper review. For that, I recommend beer_good_foamy's (apart from his dig at the BSG finale, which I don’t agree with, so there!). He points out both what is good about this issue – the fact that it’s well written with good dialogue and characterisation and finally everyone is talking to each other, which they've signally failed to do for most of the series. It's even structured in a clever way so we see everything through Andrew's eyes, with his conclusions sometimes being at odds with what's actually happening, like in Storyteller. Also, the art is somewhat less horrible than usual, provided there are only a couple of characters in a panel, though Jeanty still seems to be under the impression that Tibet looks like Switzerland with yaks.

beer_good_foamy also points out the issue's major weakness, which is – essentially – that Buffy’s plan is stupid – so stupid that it makes her stupid plan in Chosen look very clever indeed.

I would agree with that. I would also reiterate, as I have before, that no matter how well Jane E wrote her arc, she was always going to be hamstrung by the fact that the whole Everyone Loves Vampires (even though they still kill people and openly admit to being evil) And Hates Slayers plot has been set up so badly that it’s still very hard to take Buffy’s big scaredy runaway as anything else but ridiculously out of proportion to the threat faced, which she herself has helped ramp up, what with acquiring a large enough arsenal to take on a small country – always guaranteed to make the general public paranoid.

The fact that Buffy's decision to do this remains unexplained to the reader both in terms of plot and in terms of character development doesn't help. Apparently, it's one of those back story things that both Joss and Scott Allie tell us are not going to be filled in, (except where Willow's concerned) and that we are quite wrong-headed to think are necessary to understand where Comics Buffy's coming from.

In other words, as I’ve said before, there’s been far, far too much tell for the amount of show, which has pretty much crippled the story IMO.

So far, so no different to the previous 27 issues, you might say. So what is it that’s made this one the potential tipping point for me?

Weirdly, it stems partly from watching that vid of Joss's speech/Q&A to the American Secular Society. I say weird, because I really liked Joss while watching it. I thought he came across as intelligent, funny – even nice, which must be pretty rare in Hollywood. I agreed with a lot of what he said.

However, I also realised yet again something that I first understood some years ago, which is that what interests Joss in drama and what interests me are often very different things.

For instance, I don't know about anyone else, but it was plain to me listening to him talk and answer questions that of all his work so far, his heart is given to Firefly/Serenity. That show and its cast and its unrealised potential are his great love, rather than BtVS, and certainly rather than AtS.

That's fine. I can even understand why he would feel that way, given what happened to Firefly. But I'm afraid I can't agree with him. I just didn't like the show – so much so, that even though I watched about 7 out of the 12 episodes while staying with peasant_ a few years back, I went home and couldn't be bothered watching the remaining eps. I still haven't seen them.

Realising this again, I had to face up to the knowledge that what floats Joss's boat in drama and what floats mine only coincides some of the time- which leads me to the inescapable conclusion that unfortunately, no matter how well written the latest arc of the comic is, I find the whole thing horribly, horribly dull!

I've read the latest issue twice and both times one side of my mind has been thinking: very clever, good character voices, pity about the art but at least it's not as bad as last time, while the other has been thinking: God, I'm so bored!

The almost-romantic scene between Buffy and Xander in this issue encapsulates my boredom with the whole story, in fact. See, I always found the idea of B/X (which is where I was sure Joss would eventually go from the first time I watched Welcome to the Hellmouth) dull as ditchwater, plus clichéd. 'Heroine falls in love with all sorts of unsuitable people, only to wake up one day and realise that Mr Right has been standing beside her all the time.'

Okay, so when Joss does get around to it, it won’t be as some of the more extreme B/X'ers want it to be, with Buffy tearfully confessing how wrong headed she's been all these years and Xander graciously forgiving her and folding her into his manly arms. But Joss will get around to it in time, no doubt, and I will still be bored by it.

YMMV of course. It all depends what you want from BtVS, both the show and the comic. If someone's main focus in the show was the Core Four relationship (or Core Three, as it has sadly become in the comic), as Joss's was, and is, then I can see that the character dynamic in the comic is like a dream come true. Season 1 all over again. However, that was never so for me. If BtVS hadn't 'opened out' and changed over the years – if it had stayed like season 1 – I would never have carried on watching.

I could see why the Buffy/Willow/Xander relationship was so important when they were in high school, but once they were out in the big wide world, it seemed only natural that they should go on to form other relationships outside their tight knit little group. That's part of growing up. And in the show, they duly did, Xander with Anya, Willow with Tara, Buffy with Riley and then Spike, plus her parental relationship with Dawn.

The fact that the three friends broadened their horizons and got out of their incestuous little huddle (which I appreciate they had good reason for getting into while they were in school) without destroying their friendship was one of the things I thought worked best in season 7, in fact. I always took that scene in the high school corridor in Chosen, where the Core Three and Giles meet up, exchange early season BtVS-type banter and then go their separate ways as symbolic of the fact that they didn't need to be living in each others' pockets any more to remain friends. They could have a life apart from each other - without cutting each other out of their lives.

Yet in the comic, they've withdrawn back into that huddle and no one outside it really seems significant – not Dawn, not Kennedy, and certainly not the cipher comic book OCs (though Satsu has just about managed to develop a personality).

That's one thing I don't like and find horribly dull – the narrowing down of the characters' focus - their regression, if you will. Another is that -once again appreciating that YMMV, especially if your favourite character is, say, Willow or Xander – I find the comic horribly lacking in characters with edge. Faith comes closest (or did, not so much now), and failing her, Dracula. With him out of the picture, and Faith towing the Follow Buffy's Stupid Plan to the Letter party line, there just isn't anyone. They're all just –boring.

And this is when I really miss a character like Spike, or Anya, or BtVS Cordelia. There isn't a cynical voice off disagreeing with/making fun of our heroes and telling them they're all going to die. There isn't even a mysterious (and annoying) character commenting cryptically on the action, as was Angel's role in season 1 and early season 2.

From what I understand, the character of Angel wasn't Joss's idea, but David Greenwalt's (and interestingly, in his Secular Society Q&A, Joss says that he'd conceived of the character as Latino, hence the name), and I can believe it. From everything Joss has said, including in this Q&A, he didn't really ever 'get' Angel as a character, though he could see the potential for angst and life lessons for Buffy in B/A.

I expect the character of Spike was Joss's idea. I believe what Joss says about preferring Spike to Angel, seeing Spike as more evolved (because he sought his own soul out instead of being cursed) and finding Spike more congenial to him if only because Spike is such an iconoclast. However, I don't believe this preference extends to having anything else to say about Spike – to, in fact, rather regarding him (and Angel) as now getting in the way of the story Joss wants to tell.

Am going off slightly at a tangent there. Sorry. So yes – no characters with edge in season 8. Plus, apart from Buffy/Satsu (which, as beer_good_foamy points out still seems to have served no purpose in the story except to get the comic noticed more in the media), no relationships with edge either. Yes, we got a brief bit of almost-Spangel in the web comic, but I think we all know that was just Joss messing with the 'shippers because he's sick of them pestering him. He's never really going to do S/A.

Which brings me back rather circuitously to my point, which is to say again that the essential dullness (to me) of the story and characters in the comic has made me realise all over again that what interests Joss and what interests me are just not always the same, and in the comic they're poles apart. Maybe in the end the comic will have something profound to say about something, I don't know. I just know that you can be as profound as you like but – as Joss himself says, when talking about didacticism and drama in his Q&A – if your readers/viewers are bored along the way, no one's going to get it anyway.

Not saying that everyone is bored, but I'm afraid I am. The only remaining matter of interest to me in the comic now that Allie has flat out said that we've seen all we're going to see of Spike and Angel and we're never going to find out what brought Buffy to her current pass character development-wise, is the identity of Twilight, but since after reading this issue I strongly suspect that Giles is Twilight, or at least working for him, I'm not much enthused about that either.

:(

I haven't given up on Joss completely, btw. Watched the first episode of Dollhouse today, and while I can't say I liked it, it was at least interesting. Also, even if I stop buying the comic for myself, I shall still be buying it for other people, so I shall still be reading - in the increasingly vain hope that at some point all the time/money I spent on this thing in the past two years will be justified.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Well, having given up on the comic long ago, I have to agree. Joss never really wanted vampires in his story I suspect, except for Buffy to Dust them. They were cannon fodder to him, so being landed with Angel, and, at first, Spike was not what he intended.

He was able to develop Spike more in BtVS, while giving Angel his own series, which I prefered to be honest, he never took that much interest in AtS, it was always more DG baby.

Between the regression of Buffy, Willow and Xander and the lack of Giles, I have been less interested in the comic for some time before I stopped buying it. Scott Allie's opinions just made it easier to say, "Enough".

[shapinglight]

Joss never really wanted vampires in his story I suspect, except for Buffy to Dust them. They were cannon fodder to him, so being landed with Angel, and, at first, Spike was not what he intended.

No, it wasn't, but like all good creators of serial drama, I think Joss at least recognises a good thing when he sees it. He may not have wanted Angel (a character he confesses he doesn't understand and thinks is too like a brooding Anne Rice, puffy shirt-type vampire stereotype), but he recognised the potential in B/A. He also saw enough potential in Spike, as brought to life by JM, to change his mind about killing the character off mid-season.

But he never saw either character - especially Spike, I feel - as more than colour off to the side. They were there to comment on Buffy's story, not have stories of their own, which is true to some extent of the human characters too, but not as much, I feel.

Scott Allie's opinions just made it easier to say, "Enough".

Yes, this is how I feel, though in my case it's not so much his opinions, which he's entitled to, but his pronouncements about the general trend of the story, which I have to believe are as he says, since he's the editor.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

I gave up on the comic months ago myself (it helped that I found another fandom to migrate to), and like you, I think it was the regression to the high school dynamic and the shortage of snark that did it for me. If they had kept Dracula around, I might have at least kept reading the series for the lulz. :\

Let's see if the Twilight reveal will be satisfactory, at least. That's a big make-or-break factor for the season.

[shapinglight]

(it helped that I found another fandom to migrate to)

Yeah, I can see how that might help. I don't have that option. Have loved other shows since BtVS - BSG, for instance - but so far don't feel terribly fannish about them. Being Human is the nearest I've got so far.

I think it was the regression to the high school dynamic and the shortage of snark that did it for me. If they had kept Dracula around, I might have at least kept reading the series for the lulz.

Yeah, the Dracula stuff was funny, wasn't it? I'd love to see that character back.

[gillo]

I've always watched it from afar, relying on my flist for reviews and some idea of what's going on. My family have bought me TPBs from time to time, which at least means I can watch a story at a time. I'm not a real comics reader, not since my Superman days of my early teens, and I don't find it a satisfactory replacement for the depth and richness of the show. I find it depressing that so much of the hard-won maturity of the last three seasons has been dropped to produce simpler, two-dimensional characters. I'll continue to follow the storylines at a distance, though.

[shapinglight]

and I don't find it a satisfactory replacement for the depth and richness of the show

Well, there's no way it could be. Probably, my dissatisfaction would be less if so much weren't being claimed for this series. There is just no way it's a proper continuation of the show, and I could accept it a lot better if Joss hadn't called it season 8, but made it absolutely clear it was a whole different animal.

I find it depressing that so much of the hard-won maturity of the last three seasons has been dropped to produce simpler, two-dimensional characters

Yeah, me too. That said, the characters aren't exactly the same as they were in high school. They're older, if not wiser. It's more like they've been so traumatised by their experiences that they've circled the wagons and withdrawn to a mental place where they feel secure.

Which would be fine, I suppose, if I thought that was what Joss was going for, but I don't think it is.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"Realising this again, I had to face up to the knowledge that what floats Joss's boat in drama and what floats mine only coincides some of the time- which leads me to the inescapable conclusion that unfortunately, no matter how well written the latest arc of the comic is, I find the whole thing horribly, horribly dull!"

Yep, that about sums it up for me as well I'm afraid. :(

[shapinglight]

Yep, that about sums it up for me as well I'm afraid. :(

It's a pity, because I do love BtVS the show so much. I never thought I could find the continued adventures of these characters boring.

That said, I was quite intrigued by the first episode of Dollhouse. Might even write a post about it when I've watched a few more episodes.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

You pretty much summed up the bugging points about s8, it asks to much tolerance for silly plotlines, the characters have made some unexplained leaps but are regressing instead of evolving and their relationships are not engaging anymore.
About the whole Buffy/Dawn/Xander thing though, I think I really read to much of you know who's drivel and took it far more seriously than the comic intended. It seems more that they wanted to set up Xander's ship with Dawn different from his former ones in that you know this time he would not chose Buffy if he could.
The missing spark between Buffy and Xander was so obvious, I doubt anyone can really want to sell that lameness and as you pointed out horribly clicheed storyline.

The snark factor is terribly missing.

Also I really have to stop reading what this Allie person says.

I'll be interested what you think of Dollhouse. I think it toys with some very interesting topics, even if it's hard to like the characters. And don't stop when you see the abomination that is the third episode, it will get better again.

[shapinglight]

it asks to much tolerance for silly plotlines, the characters have made some unexplained leaps but are regressing instead of evolving and their relationships are not engaging anymore.

Yep. Particularly that last point. You can forgive a lot if the characters engage you. If they don't, the others things wrong with the series just grate even more.

It seems more that they wanted to set up Xander's ship with Dawn different from his former ones in that you know this time he would not chose Buffy if he could.

Possibly. I kind of hope so, if only because I don't want Dawn to die or be evil. I always did think that Joss meant to go with B/X at the close, though, and NB's health problems made it impossible.

The snark factor is terribly missing.

God, yes! I wish Dracula had stuck around. He made me laugh.

As for Dollhouse, so far, I'm intrigued, though the title sequence and theme tune are quite awful. Do you think that's deliberate?

[jen-nsync-landl.livejournal.com]

I had the same reaction to Firefly. I tuned in with eager anticipation to its premiere...and just. didn't. get. it. I think I watched on in grim determination of finding something to grab me for another month or so and then just gave up the ghost. I just couldn't be bothered to care less.

Thanks for this thoughtful set of reactions. In my recent LJ/fandom hibernation, I remained largely blissfully unaware of the "S8" concept (in my mind, of course, there is no season 8 if I'm not seeing it on the screen). Now I feel no need to seek it out. I could list lots of reasons, but it might all just come careening back to "No Spike = No Jen."

[shapinglight]

I think I watched on in grim determination of finding something to grab me for another month or so and then just gave up the ghost

I don't want to say too much about it really, because I know there are many people on my flist who love it, but really the only characters I could stand were River and Simon.

Where the comic's concerned, I should carry on ignoring it. I wish I had. Trouble is, having gone this far, I can't just pretend it doesn't exist, no matter how I might like to. All I can do is shake my head over the differences between Joss and me in this instance as to what constitutes a good story.

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I have to admit I gave up on the comics some time ago. In fact, the last couple of issues I bought I still haven't read. The characters had become unrecognisable to me as the characters I knew, and I found myself uninterested in what they were doing - or why they were doing it. In other words, it bored me to tears. :(

Dollhouse started off weak, but improved immensely by mid season. I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with S2.

It's good to see you, btw. :)

[shapinglight]

In fact, the last couple of issues I bought I still haven't read

I got like that with Joss's Astonishing X-Men. In the end, I just gave up on it. Didn't like his take on the characters at all.

In other words, it bored me to tears. :(

Yep. That's the pass I've reached. The B/X stuff just brought it home to me how bored I was, because I've always found the idea of that 'ship so yawnworthy.

It's good to see you too, Cal.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

It's the regression issue that has been the sticking point all along. It isn't fun to cover the same ground, or to watch characters relearning the same lessons. None of them are idiots, so why is this so hard? Other than life just is, I mean.

Which isn't what I mean to say. The whole Buffy is (maybe) interested in Xander diversion was completely annoying, and not a little squicky to me. I talked briefly about this at my journal, but isn't this exactly the problem she had with Spike, but without the passion? Is Buffy still the kind of person who, when feeling less than her best, would seek romance ("romance" in Spike's case) with someone she'd never consider if she were at full strength? Especially when we know, as she must, that this lack of power is temporary? I'm choosing to hope that her shocked reaction at the end is not romantic disappointment, but rather surprise at Dawn being all grown up. No doubt it's Andrew's spin on things that made made it seem as if it could be otherwise. Even so, it's gross.

And party, that's because the Willow and Xander show does not interest me. Dawn can be okay, when she's puncturing their egos, but it's just not happening anymore. Argh. *wanders off, mumbling*

[shapinglight]

It isn't fun to cover the same ground, or to watch characters relearning the same lessons. None of them are idiots, so why is this so hard? Other than life just is, I mean.

You're right. It's not fun. Or even interesting. Plus, I don't think Joss's point is that Buffy's incapable of learning. Far from it. I expect to see her pretty much justified in every way at the end of the season.

Is Buffy still the kind of person who, when feeling less than her best, would seek romance ("romance" in Spike's case) with someone she'd never consider if she were at full strength? Especially when we know, as she must, that this lack of power is temporary?

I don't think that was what Jane/Joss was trying to convey, but it's certainly a perfectly valid way of looking at it. Which is a point in the comic's favour, in fact, in that things are open to interpretation the way they were in the show. That said, however, my reaction was not, 'I'm squicked', it was 'I'm bored s**tless.' I wish Buffy/Satsu had gone somewhere.

And party, that's because the Willow and Xander show does not interest me.

Me neither, though as I said, I recognise that if that is what interests people, they're far more likely to like this comic than I am. Eh, well. And Dawn hasn't done nearly enough ego-puncturing for my liking.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I don't think Buffy/Xander is ever going to go further than that scene in the field. That scene encapsulates Joss' intentions and defines the relationship. That was their moment if there was ever going to be a moment to start between them and what does it lead to? What does it always lead to? Buffy feels alone. And that's where Joss lives. That's where Joss likes Buffy to live. That scene of closeness and the final scene where Buffy walks in on Xander and Dawn - it's taken away Buffy's closest confidante (even more close during Season 8 than any other season) and pushed her further away from her sister.

There are a few ways that a Buffy/Xander relationship could play out as I see it. 1) A repeat of Buffy/Riley. 2) Buffy/Xander continues in the same vein as the friendship only now they have sex and make-out. 3) Buffy/Xander is a missed opportunity that results in Buffy feeling even more alone.

The first one wouldn't work for me because I'd like to think they learned that Buffy/Riley was essentially boring most of the audience. They certainly said as much in interviews. Plus a rehash is a tired move. The second one - where's the drama? Unless they're going to immediately kill Xander or make him evil, the second option is simply too boring. The third option is where we're currently headed, I think, and that it will continue to be the story's direction because it's Joss' guiding star - how can I get Buffy in more pain?

That said, I've currently been wondering if perhaps the whole point of there not being much inspection of the world (the media, a few small-town emo teenagers) loving vampires is because it's not the point that vampires are the world's new curiosity. I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't care about vampires or who find them evil. Common sense demands that hardcore Christians find them spawns of Satan (plus Allie has admitted as much). It could be examined it in so many different ways and it would be awesome...on ANGEL. Instead, we're looking at how the world views the Slayer as a villain and how that affects Buffy. And while there has been some "tell", there's also been a lot of show in how and why Slayers are judged. 1) Televised attempted murder by a Slayer. 2) Continued bashing of Slayers in the media by Harmony who has been playing the "victim" card. 3) Buffy robbed a bank. 4) Interested parties in the government already hated Buffy being her coming out party (it's just gone from the upper crust and now become a popular movement). 5) Simone commandeered an Italian island and ejected the population (besides going around on robbery sprees) - that stuff makes for bad press about Slayers.

So for me, I've given up complaining about not enough show, too much tell with the vampires. The oneshot was more than enough to show that telling that story takes you too far away from Buffy right now. Where as the story with the world hating Slayers has gotten enough "show" for me to get by. Sure, it would have been nice to see the humans chasing Faith and Giles underground in #26 (but that issue was already jam-packed to the gills). Some actual displays of violence from humanity outside of the government has been missing from Retreat and I completely blame the Predators and Prey arc for that. As you might have guessed, I'd cut #24 Safe out and actually make it a story about humans turning on Faith and Giles in a way where the humans weren't already previously insane and sacrificing their children to the same demon. Or have it be a story about a Slayer who Faith tries to help turning on her along with her family. Perhaps a mob comes to lynch this new Slayer and Faith comes to help her and she throws Faith to the wolves to save her own skin.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Sorry this came out so long! You became the sounding board for my recent thoughts on the story.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I kind of think that Joss is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, I like that he has something bigger to say. I was thinking about the upcoming True Blood finale and back over the whole season and --though Alan Ball would probably disagree -- I'm not sure that I buy that there's anything 'deeper' there than superficial shout-outs and story crack. With Joss, there really is some deeper point being made (at least most of the time) and that can be an interesting thing to suss out and to see how it plays out over a season. On the other hand, I don't think metaphor trumps plot. Subtext doesn't trump text. So if I'm to enjoy a story -- entertain me!. Sometimes Joss loses sight of the forrest for the little cabin he plans at the end of the winding trail. And... maybe I didn't want a cabin. Maybe I wanted something to come out of the actual trip through the woods.

Anyway, I agree. Joss isn't particularly interested in the things which I find interesting. And if the show had remained Season 1 BtVS, I wouldn't have been interested (In fact, I wasn't interested in Season 1 BtVS. I checked it out but wasn't at all interested until Season 2).

And while I know I'm in the minority, I honestly didn't think Firefly was all that good. Again with forest and trees. I could never get beyond the premise that made no sense that, like the gaps from how the BtVS characters got from Season 7 to '8', Joss made no effort to explain. Why would a human population in the distant future, revert to the dialect of a very brief period in the Western US? Why exactly are the 'heroes' modeled on Confederate soldiers? Why the hell are women who are terra-farming in the future dressed like Little House on the Prairie rejects? What kind of culture produced that? And, Joss clearly had no interest in those questions, questions that distracted me with every episode and whose answers I might have found intriguing. His lack of desire to explore any of that just made it all set dressing...which actually annoyed me. And, though I have great love of Nathan Fillion (based on his teens when he played Joey Buchanan on OLTL) Capt. Tightpants was just another square-jawed reiteration of Riley who, while not evil, bored me to tears. Basically, Firefly? Meh.

Dollhouse as a premise just... blech. I don't see me delving into it. I'm sure it will have good dialog and some hella cool moments. And it will most likely have a point... and I don't think I care. It's just not my 'thing'.

So, I guess this is a long winded way of saying, I totally get where you're coming from.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

"Why would a human population in the distant future, revert to the dialect of a very brief period in the Western US? Why exactly are the 'heroes' modeled on Confederate soldiers? Why the hell are women who are terra-farming in the future dressed like Little House on the Prairie rejects? What kind of culture produced that?"

*squeezes you till your eyes bleed* Yes, yes, yes!! Thank god I'm no the only one who was bugged by that. Does Joss even know how cultures are formed? Christ those western overtones bugged the fuck outta me.

When it comes to cultures evolving and embracing each other Blade runner got it right. Firefly simply did not. It felt too artificial and tacked on for me.

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

I'm a ways from giving up, but I am disheartened for many of the same reasons as you are. If Allie is right, these comics really are dreadful. But I still have massive cognitive dissonance about it because I don't understand why Joss would regress the characters, decide that closure with the B/S story is unnecessary, and (above all) would think it's irrelevant to know how and why Buffy resolved her long-standing dilemmas about how to be a slayer by chosing to lead a slayer-intense, militaresque life-style funded by robbing banks. Actually, I think the drama for me for some time has been about my cognitive dissonance and not about the story itself, which is, as you say, rather dull on its own terms.

I didn't get a strong pro-firefly vibe from listening to Joss in April. I did get that he was never sure what to do with Angel. But that's not so much because Angel's a vampire, but rather because once he got to his own show, it was set up to be a show about another male superhero with a dark past. As for BtVS, the entire seven year arc is arguably structured around Buffy's relationship with the vampires -- neither of whom were remotely incidental to the plot or her life. There's just no way Joss accidentally or reluctantly did that. It is true, though, that he might be done with them now.

Anyway, I'll still be buying and reading. But I've been knocked out of the story and it'll take something to get me back. And once you're knocked out of the story a *lot* is very hard to swallow.

On Dollhouse: As someone said up thread don't let #3 make you walk away. It gets substantially more interesting. But actually the last official episode and Epitaph One have made me substantially less hopeful about how DH will pan out when all is said and done. I'll probably post on that some time. There are flashes of brilliance, but also what appear to be some strong and important threads that are pure cliche and pretty dull. Maybe Joss is only truly brilliant when he's got a strong team of writers to bounce off of.

[sueworld2003.livejournal.com]

I gotta say I wasn't all that impressed with Epitaph one either I'm afraid. :(

Maybe Joss has lost it somewhat?

[tripleransom.livejournal.com]

I got some of the early Buffy comics as a Christmas present and have never been interested enough to read 'em. I loved both shows, am a dedicated B/S shipper and have loved the fandom forever. So why can't I get into the comics? They remind me exactly of those awful "official" Buffy books. The characters are stuck in high school, rehashing the same tired plots. So who needs it?

I'll stick with the fanfic, thank you very much. Even though there's no real season eight (is there? did that project ever get off the ground?) Some of the fanfic carries on the saga in ways that are deeply satisfying to me. Yes rahira, take a bow!

Oh, and Firefly? Yawn...

[shapinglight]

They remind me exactly of those awful "official" Buffy books. The characters are stuck in high school, rehashing the same tired plots. So who needs it?

There's an element of that, certainly, which is bizarre because up until now I would have said that Joss was fairly unique in being willing to mess with what was regarded as a 'winning' formula. Buffy did grow up, Angel did leave, etc etc.

Yet she's still stuck with the same two friends she had at school and no one else at all. It's sad. And it would be nice if Joss was making a point with it about her inability to move on, but since Buffy/Satsu didn't lead anywhere I don't think he is.

[revdorothyl.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for posting this. I've felt vaguely guilty for NOT feeling guilty about ignoring the "Season 8" comics so far.

Joss or no Joss, I just couldn't bring myself to include the comics in what is, for me, already a 'closed canon', open to further interpretations and elaboration in fanfic and meta for the rest of eternity, but with all the 'authoritative texts' already identified.

Thanks for giving me some perspective on the comics . . . and on the fact that Joss's will and intent for the Buffyverse characters need not be the final word in determining the meaning and destiny of those characters for the rest of us, who may not love the things that Joss loves best in drama.

I never really 'got' "Firefly", either, though I found the series vastly improved when re-watching the episodes in the correct order. I loved, however, the movie "Serenity", which seemed to refine, distill, and magnify the best elements of the "Firefly" characters, while losing the dross of much of the self-indulgent and petty elements which had occasionally weighed down the series.

I'll happily go back to reading BtVS/AtS fanfic, now, for my 'continuing adventures of the Buffyverse characters,' and save my Joss-quota for watching new episodes of "Dollhouse".

[shapinglight]

I've felt vaguely guilty for NOT feeling guilty about ignoring the "Season 8" comics so far.

Dear me, you definitely shouldn't feel guilty for not feeling guilty. Having said which, I can feel guilty about pretty much anything myself.

Joss or no Joss, I just couldn't bring myself to include the comics in what is, for me, already a 'closed canon', open to further interpretations and elaboration in fanfic and meta for the rest of eternity, but with all the 'authoritative texts' already identified.

I've tried to do that on and off, but it's difficult because it's Joss. However, I think the transfer to a different medium does at least give people the option whether to consider it canon or not. I tend to feel that it's its own separate canon, which one can take or leave depending on how one feels about comics.

I haven't seen Serenity. Would there be any point, do you think, in watching that without watching the remaining eps of the series I haven't watched?

[quinara]

I'm left kind of sombre at the end of your post - because I agree with you completely. Why has it become so dull?? It had so much promise back in the day.

Firefly I find interesting, because after umming and ahhing for years about not liking it (I caught the most boring scene on the series on the TV when it first aired), I watched it and really enjoyed it. Then I bought the DVDs and haven't watched it since. Funnily enough, I partly blame Serenity, because it shut down all the thoughts I had ticking over from the show and replaced them with 'how things turned out'. And I can't forgive them for making River so overpowered, stealing Inara's clothes (along with her plotline) and sexyfying both of their hairdos.

On the other hand, I love Dollhouse to pieces, even when it's 'rubbish', because I think that says something really interesting from a meta perspective. (ie. The concept of the show is about selling prostitution by making it so hi-tech and clinical that no one believes it can be prostitution anymore - in the same way, the TV show is about some pretty deep and harrowing stuff, but in the first few episodes it turns the viewer away from caring about that by being such perfectly 'boring' TV with a relatively stereotypical cast who all have far too shiny hair running around shiny sets in extremely episodic hijinks.) The meta has yet to be written, but I think the marketing and the theme tune and everything plays into that as well. I hope you get on with it!!

[quinara]

And I will watch Joss' Q&A at some point!!

[yourlibrarian]

though Jeanty still seems to be under the impression that Tibet looks like Switzerland with yaks

I don't know why this is so funny to me. Perhaps there's something inherently amusing about yaks.

and that we are quite wrong-headed to think are necessary to understand where Comics Buffy's coming from

I'm pretty sure anything written will not be understood by some portion of the audience. However, it's always a bad sign when a significant part of your audience isn't getting something (as opposed to disagreeing about what you're doing).

his heart is given to Firefly/Serenity. That show and its cast and its unrealised potential are his great love

I think so too. It never had a chance to go bad, like a promising relationship cruelly broken up in its first flush, you don't forget it. Also, I think that whole experience really wounded Joss as a professional, and the Wonder Woman time was the nail in the coffin. Speaking of which, don't know if you heard the news that WB has reorganized DC and has now stopped development on almost all the DC film properties. Which means after 10 years that WW is dead in the water.

f BtVS hadn't 'opened out' and changed over the years – if it had stayed like season 1 – I would never have carried on watching.

I might not have either (don't know because I came in at S4), although there was always such pithiness in the show that I might have carried on. But I certainly wouldn't have been part of the fandom in that case. To me that humor was often lacking in the comic as well -- or at least there wasn't enough of it to engage in the same way.

And this is when I really miss a character like Spike, or Anya, or BtVS Cordelia

Very good point, yes.

Joss says that he'd conceived of the character as Latino, hence the name

Huh, I missed that. I think that like most comic book nerds, Joss finds Angel's archetype Batman really cool but at the same time, not that interesting. I see Spike as a more interesting version of his first character, Pike, with more layers to him.

Watched the first episode of Dollhouse today, and while I can't say I liked it, it was at least interesting.

I would definitely advise you to skip the next four episodes as you will discover that Joss can be boring in live action as well. While I didn't think Ep. 6 was something great, it did mark a turning point where the show started to say something. My feeling though, is that Joss' heart is not in this show. I think there are things he can say that engage him but I don't sense the same commitment here that he had to Buffy or Firefly or even Dr. Horrible.

I thought he came across as intelligent, funny – even nice, which must be pretty rare in Hollywood. I agreed with a lot of what he said.

I think Joss would be fantastic in front of a classroom, myself. Given a chance to speak at length he is, to me, always interesting and entertaining to listen to. But yes, I think his perspective on his work is bound to be very different from ours because it serves so many more purposes for him.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Regarding Whedon's Q&A - keep in mind, this was the Cultural Humanist Society - which is basically a society that does not believe in god and believes you can be and are a moral person if you do not believe in God. They tend to be existentialists.
Buffy was a lot of things, but I'm not sure it was as existentialist as Whedon's later works. It wasn't really meant to be. Spike actually came closest to existentialism in that series. With Buffy herself a close second.

On the Firefly bit - that was actually the audience, they asked mainly Firefly questions. Remember it wasn't really a lecture so much as a Q&A - you respond to the questions that you are asked. He threw bits about Spike in there - that he was not asked about. And he threw bits about Buffy in there that he was not directly asked about. There's a reason for that - the group giving him the award was remember The Cultural Humanist Society - and this group tends to fit the philosophy expressed in Firefly more than BTVS. Since Firefly was a political drama, and BTVS really isn't. Firefly is an existentialist drama, and Buffy, while existentialist at times, really wasn't. Objects in Space - which you may not have seen - was pure existentialism.

Angel as a Latino - was a joke. Joss's wit is a bit dry and not easy to catch. But it was definitely a joke. He's was making fun of the fact that there are no minorities in the Buffy cast, in a self-deprecating and apologetic manner. One of the reasons Firefly gets a better reception by the Cultural Humanists is it had a multi-racial cast and BTVS did not. Whedon, I'm guessing, regretted the fact that BTVS was not more diverse. He tried to make it diverse by casting the gal who played Kendra as Cordelia, but Charisma Carpenter came in and wowed the producers.

I agree with 2maggie2, stormwreath and beergoodfoamy on the comics. I also wouldn't take anything Allie says seriously - he tends to lie, and mislead readers, and will not provide spoilers. When asked directly about a Spike appearance in the series - he has repeatedly stated in letters and elsewhere - no spoilers. Personally, I think Allie is full of shit, if you'll excuse the phrasing, and best to be ignored. ;-))

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Glad to see you write this up! I don't entirely agree, especially on Firefly which IMO is twice the show BSG could ever dream of being ;-), but... yeah.

A few things:

it’s still very hard to take Buffy’s big scaredy runaway as anything else but ridiculously out of proportion to the threat faced, which she herself has helped ramp up

Yes. Oh god, yes.

the Core Four relationship (or Core Three, as it has sadly become in the comic)

I think it was stormwreath who, rather seemlessly, renamed the Season 8 crowd the Key Three. :-) As someone who does love the dynamics of the four - though not to the exclusion of everyone else, and not necessarily if it extends to the romantic side as well - I just hope it won't continue to dwindle to the True Two or the Gone One. At that point, it'll just be Zero Hero. (OK, that joke got old fast, sorry.)

There isn't a cynical voice off disagreeing with/making fun of our heroes and telling them they're all going to die. There isn't even a mysterious (and annoying) character commenting cryptically on the action, as was Angel's role in season 1 and early season 2.

Yes. Oh god, yes. I've been missing that since the first arc, and it really is a huge gaping hole - OK, Satsu and Dawn have gotten to land the odd snark, but for the most part that character has been sorely lacking. Especially since we know that Whedon a) loves that character, and b) really needs him/her in order for his heroes to justify their actions. It's not just about pointing out when the characters make wrong decisions, but a way to force them to defend their decisions - give that motivation for their actions that's been missing. (It doesn't help that I'm currently watching Farscape, where everyone gets to be sarcastic about everyone else's plan roughly 4 times an episode...)

no relationships with edge either

Oh, come on! What about Dawn/Kenny? It was the romance of the century! ;-)

[shapinglight]

especially on Firefly which IMO is twice the show BSG could ever dream of being ;-), but... yeah.

:Boggles: We'll never know, will we, and even if that had been the case, considering my dislike of all but three of the characters, it's unlikely I'd have been watching to find out.

As someone who does love the dynamics of the four - though not to the exclusion of everyone else, and not necessarily if it extends to the romantic side as well - I just hope it won't continue to dwindle to the True Two or the Gone One. At that point, it'll just be Zero Hero. (OK, that joke got old fast, sorry.)

Heh! It's a good joke, though. Personally, and I would imagine from what you say, you agree, I really don't think the Core Four, or the Key Three, or whatever you want to call them, dynamic is helped by depriving them of meaningful interaction with anyone else. Mind you, there is, or used to be, a hard core of fanatical B/Xers whose mantra is: 'the only one for a core scoob is a core scoob' who would probably say otherwise.

Odd how they don't seem to realise this either means Giles and Willow have to become an item (because of course Buffy is meant for Xander), or that Xander, Willow and Buffy have to turn Mormon.

OK, Satsu and Dawn have gotten to land the odd snark, but for the most part that character has been sorely lacking.

Oh God, yes! Dracula took on the role when he was around too. Plus he brought the much needed laughs. I miss him. And the more I think about it (because I never, ever expected Spike or Angel to have much of a role in this story), the more it irritates me that Buffy/Satsu really doesn't seem to have been anything more than a publicity-seeking stunt.

I can't think of another Jossian work where that snarky character was entirely missing. Unless Dollhouse? Haven't really spotted one there yet. Speaking of which, you never mention that show, or if you have, I missed it because I was avoiding spoilers. What did you think of it?

no relationships with edge either

Oh, come on! What about Dawn/Kenny? It was the romance of the century! ;-)

By George, you're right! What an oversight on my part. Seriously, though, see above what I said about Buffy/Satsu.

[fishsanwitt]

I've stopped buying the comics. Blech to B/X - what on earth is Joss thinking?

I'm not in love with Dollhouse - I don't think it's very good, but I'll keep watching to see where it's going.

And I keep trying to like 'Firefly'. I actually liked the movie more.

[shapinglight]

Hi, Sylvia.

Blech to B/X - what on earth is Joss thinking?

I really don't know, beyond boring half his readers half to death.

I might try just watching Serenity. Apparently, the annoying Western elements aren't nearly so obvious in the movie, and since I find those very, very silly I might get on with it better. Doubt I'll ever like Mal, though.

Dollhouse is turning out to be better than I was expecting so far, but I'm only 3 episodes in as yet.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

IMO, part of the problem is that S8 has been ongoing for what, 3 years now?

And in that time, closure has been... lacking. Has anything had closure? Besides Dawn's wonderfully useless shape changes?

Any closure we might have been wanting from the comic, in regards to the series, wanting. New developments in the comic, Buffy goes to the future, there's a traitor, Willow's even more powerful, yadda, yadda, yadda... Still not dealt with.

All this piling of more and more stuff could and does work in a TV series, but there you have one year's worth (22 episodes) of developments to resolve in the final episodes. It's very different when you keep adding stuff and not dealing with it for 3 years.

The relationship issues, well, if people are still going for Whedon for the ships... spoiler alert, it ends badly.

If Whedon wanted to he could write an interesting Buffy/Xander story. But writing an interesting romance was never Whedon's intention, in any of the romances he's written. They all served some purpose, and most of the times that purpose was to create more pain for the characters.

I don't think the comic book will be any different. In fact, IMO, I believe Xander's going to die, simply because Whedon doesn't really have anything he wants to do with the character, he's just there, and killing main characters off is always a BIG, IMPORTANT moment, buy this comic OMG, Buffy doesn't sleep with a woman, but a Scooby dies!

At the end of the day, the problem is the three years. Three years is a long time to go around "I know you want to know x, but that doesn't matter, what matters is what's coming up, it's gonna be awesome, you're gonna love it". Maybe at the end of the 40 or 41 books we can realize that Whedon was going for something awesome, and it all makes sense, but 28 book in it's all still pretty meh.

[shapinglight]

Has anything had closure? Besides Dawn's wonderfully useless shape changes?

Not that I can think of, no. Unless you count Buffy/Satsu, but that was over before it had really begun.

It's very different when you keep adding stuff and not dealing with it for 3 years.

True, especially as when a few minor things have been resolved, it's invariably been a bit of a let down. You start to think that the payoff can never be big enough to make up for 4 years of waiting.

Re: your fears for Xander - I really don't think you have to worry on that score. I'm more or less 100% certain that Joss will never kill Willow or Xander. I just don't see that ever happening.

Maybe at the end of the 40 or 41 books we can realize that Whedon was going for something awesome, and it all makes sense, but 28 book in it's all still pretty meh.

Have to agree with this, though I'm afraid I may well have got to the point where the end can be as awesome as it likes, it will still be outweighed by the meh.