Question about concrit

[shapinglight]

Did a bit of fic writing today for the first time in about 10 days (oh writing, how I've missed you!). Was not at all pleased with the results, which more resemble someone's laundry list than they do vampire porn. Shall have to rewrite completely (fortunate it was only half a page) while feeling grumpy about the fact that this story was going so well until going away disrupted the flow.

Naturally, this leads me on to the subject of concrit.



Well, not really, except in that I knew that if I'd intended to have the story I was trying to write beta'ed (which I'm probably not in this instance) my beta would have sent it back to me minus this page and with a stern ticking off. And this got me thinking about concrit in general, and how we all say we want it (well, I don't tend to say that because deep down not many people really want criticism, but I've managed to grit my teeth and get through it in the past and probably could again) but that when you get it, if it's done right, it hurts like blazes, but when you've got over the initial stomping and pouting, you often realise the concritter was right and you take what they said on board and try harder next time.

Except that sometimes it's not that helpful. I mean, I don't know how other people interpret 'constructive criticism' but to me, it means taking what you've read, praising what's good about it and then pointing out the bad stuff while making suggestions as to how it could be better (or am I am getting mixed up with beta'ing? Possibly. I'm pretty crap at that too). It doesn't mean telling the person that the very premise of their story is wrong.

A few years back I took part in peasant_'s Concritathon, during which a story of mine was critted by three different people. Two of the crits were very helpful, one rather less so. This was because the person spent a lot of time telling me that Characters A&B 'would never do that.' But the thing is, they had done it in this story, and aren't you supposed to crit what is actually there rather than what you think should be there?

Or do I just not understand what concrit is properly?

and for those of you completely uninterested in this (which is apropos of nothing whatsoever on LJ btw), oh look! Cute squirrel icon!

Comments

[shylahmask.livejournal.com]

If you had established the characters a certain way that was completely against what they ended up doing, then I'd understand. But definitely part of the concrit is that you yourself can choose what's helpful and what isn't, because as you said -- after the internal raging, you can acknowledge at least on some level that what was pointed out was true. If you can't do that, I'd say it wasn't (good) concrit, or just isn't the type of concrit you're looking for.

[shapinglight]

If you can't do that, I'd say it wasn't (good) concrit, or just isn't the type of concrit you're looking for.

Or else you never really wanted concrit in the first place, I suppose?

[quinara]

Characters A&B 'would never do that.'

In my book that's not concrit - that's personal bias. I mean, personally I feel like concrit is just the public face of beta-ing (only maybe with overtones of being unsolicited and less concerned with syntax/grammar/fiddly bits), and that, for me (as someone who gets beta'd rather than doing the betaing) is about enhancing the story that the author's trying to tell. If something is so out there from canon/standard fanon characterisation that it throws people out of the story, then saying 'this seems out of the blue - could you explain this a bit more' might be justified. Saying 'X would never do Y' doesn't help anyone and, considering how we see characters progress all the time on the telly, it seems a bit short-sighted.

I mean, my favourite betas don't do much solid criticising, so much as ask a lot of questions about the fic as they go through and comment on how it comes across to them. eg. Why is this here? I don't find this pleasant, because P, Q, R. What is meant to be happening at this point? I didn't know G had happened and now H is happening. (Sort it out!) The ball is basically in my court to work out what and how I want to deal with that.

Basically, I think the biggest measure of concrit is what you say in the first paragraph - does it improve your fic? (Or your next fic?) Because if it doesn't it can hardly be called constructive.

[shapinglight]

In my book that's not concrit - that's personal bias

That's how it felt to me too at the time. It felt more like a criticism of my view of the show/characters than it did of my story, which was't helpful at all.

Your view of concrit and beta'ing is very similar to mine. I just wish I was better at doing them myself.

Basically, I think the biggest measure of concrit is what you say in the first paragraph - does it improve your fic? (Or your next fic?) Because if it doesn't it can hardly be called constructive.

Yep.

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

Saying "X would never do Y" could be a characterization issue. I think it's fair to say if the character hasn't done that thing in canon and you can't imagine them doing it without a pretext.

IE, if Xander usually finds Spike annoying, and the reverse, and they're randomly making out in the story, you'd better explain why. Is it a spell? Is it two years later and they've become very close and it led to more, etc.

I'll buy anything if you sell it to me right.

Constructive criticism, to me, means you tell someone how to make a story better. If you just say something is bad, that's a flame.

I beta a LOT and sometimes, a writer has a vision of a character that I don't share, but I don't think it's OOC. It's just interpretation. I do feel duty bound to tell them, "yeah, that's an unusual way you're writing that character, and some readers might think it's OOC, so why is he like that?"

[shapinglight]

I think it's fair to say if the character hasn't done that thing in canon and you can't imagine them doing it without a pretext.

I guess so, but in this instance the pretext was actually the premise of the story - which I'm not really trying to defend because it's not a particularly good story and I would write it very differently now, though bizarrely I wouldn't change the premise so Characters A&B would still be doing what this person thought they would never do. :)

I'll buy anything if you sell it to me right.

Same here. I guess I didn't do a very good job in this instance, or not for that person.

I do feel duty bound to tell them, "yeah, that's an unusual way you're writing that character, and some readers might think it's OOC, so why is he like that?"

That sounds like a perfectly fair comment for a beta to make to me. Maybe it's just better to get comments like that while you're in the process of writing so you can ponder it and modify what you've written if you want, rather than getting it afterwards in concrit, where it could come across rather differently?

[51stcenturyfox.livejournal.com]

That sounds like a perfectly fair comment for a beta to make to me. Maybe it's just better to get comments like that while you're in the process of writing so you can ponder it and modify what you've written if you want, rather than getting it afterwards in concrit, where it could come across rather differently?

If I'm a beta, I'm asking, "Why are you repeating this word so much? Where is this story's point, anyway?"

But yeah... when I leave comments, I don't really mention things the writer realllllly can't change at that point. It's not SRS BZNS, after all: Nobody's going to die because Jack Harkness talks like a lovesick 13-year-old girl in a story.

Torchwood has a fair few writers who write some characters in a way that doesn't work for me, and I just don't read their stuff. Some people like woobies, so hey, they can enjoy and leave comments for the writer, LOL.

[shapinglight]

It's not SRS BZNS, after all: Nobody's going to die because Jack Harkness talks like a lovesick 13-year-old girl in a story.

Heh! Love your icon. And so true. None of it really matters.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

I agree--helpful concrit doesn't attack the premise itself. Personally, where I've found concrit most helpful is when I was unsure myself whether something was working, or whether it made sense to anyone but me. I don't usually solicit it for my fanfic, unless I'm feeling uncertain about something. In Scheherazade , for example, I wanted to make sure the whole non-sequential story-within-a-story thing worked for readers other than me, and I wasn't too pleased with the end. whyskeyeyes read a draft for me and gave me some advice which, in my opinion, really improved the last couple chapters. But it wouldn't have been helpful at all if someone said, for example, "But Spike would never last as a slave," or "Vampires couldn't possibly be kept as slaves."

[shapinglight]

I don't usually solicit it for my fanfic, unless I'm feeling uncertain about something.

I don't solicit it post-posting either. I have got very leery of posting without a beta, though (depending on the story). This is because my beta (who is brilliant) has so many times pointed out things that are wrong and that I just failed to notice that I trust her judgement completely (even if I don't always do what she suggests).

Concrit is hard to give, though. Useful concrit doubly so.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

I think I'm pretty good at giving concrit--I do it as part of my job, after all, although, sadly, not for vampire porn. I am also, sadly, too impatient to wait for a beta beforehand, even though some folks beta amazingly fast.

[shapinglight]

My beta's not the fastest, but I'd rather wait for her than not.

[next_to_normal]

I think it depends on your mileage. If you're trying to write a story that adheres closely to the characters' canon personalities, and you've written something that's out of character for them, then yeah, it would be valuable concrit to say, "Characters A & B wouldn't do that."

On the other hand, if Characters A & B doing that is the story you want to tell, and you don't care if it fits with their canon personalities or not, then it's pretty useless advice.

The scope of the action also matters. If it's one scene where Buffy seems OOC, it's probably worth a mention, and something the author can correct if they want. But if it's the entire premise of your fic, the concritter really should have enough sense to know that you intended it to be that way on purpose and you're not going to scrap the entire fic because they think it's OOC.

[shapinglight]

On the other hand, if Characters A & B doing that is the story you want to tell, and you don't care if it fits with their canon personalities or not, then it's pretty useless advice.

It is. Ironically, in the case of this particular story, though I don't think it's much good and if I were to re-write it now, I would change almost everything, the one thing I wouldn't change is the premise that this person thought was OOC, simply because that was what the story was about. So in choosing to base their crit around that point, the person was basically saying I should never have written it in the first place - which might indeed have saved me later embarrassment, but wasn't really that helpful.

Agree that if a character does something OOC in the middle of a story, there'd better be a damn good explanation of why they did it.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think the "characters A&B would never do that" type of criticism could be applied to the majority of fanfics in general and to 99% of NC-17 ones. *shrugs*

[shapinglight]

Perfectly true, Moscow.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

I think concrit has made me less self-indulgent, with regard to characters emotional displays, but there are times when it can be irritating and has to be replied to - eg. when you've revised a story over and over again and rationalised everything perfectly, and someone comes along and say "X would never do that because men/women don't do that" when there's actual canon evidence that under certain circumstances, X would totally do that.

[shapinglight]

That would be irritating. I don't think it's ever happened to me.

Assuming this isn't a hypothetical situation, how did you respond?

[shapinglight]

Huh! Weird. For some reason, LJ is not letting me unscreen your anonymous comment so I can reply to it. Anyway, I read the thread in question and can see why you got a bit miffed.

[trepkos.livejournal.com]

That is weird.
I did it anon because I was having comp. trouble.
I think the commenter in question lives a very repressed life, hence his assumption that other men must as well.

[vampirefever.livejournal.com]

There's no such thing as a cute squirrel. They're all evol. More evol than the evollest thing you can think of plus 1000000!!

[shapinglight]

But - but it's a red squirrel, and therefore too stupid sweet and fluffy to break into people's houses and make a mess.

Where grey squirrels are concerned, I'm right with you. Horrid!

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

At one point or another I have to take part in one of those conscrit thingies, because I'd be terribly interested in reading what did not work for people in my fic.

As for the "xy would never do that" criticism, I'm not sure how constructive that is. It certainly can be, if it's referring to character voice, but fic usually makes a twist on canon and the reader either goes with it or not. If it's a conscious twist the reader is criticising (like turning a character evil)there can be little done (and why should it, it's your set up) but with me sometimes weird characterisation just sneaks in (like my Buffy tends to come out a bit to nice)and then having it pointed out can be contructive.

[shapinglight]

At one point or another I have to take part in one of those conscrit thingies, because I'd be terribly interested in reading what did not work for people in my fic.

There are probably still some con crit communities around on LJ, though I don't know what they're called. You could try one of those. Personally, though, I'm not sure I see that much value in them. I think it's better to find a good beta, or pool of betas, and work with them.

It certainly can be, if it's referring to character voice, but fic usually makes a twist on canon and the reader either goes with it or not.

Agreed. I'd rather people did tell me where character voice is concerned, but that wasn't this person's problem.

You make Buffy too nice, I make her too British. :)

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I did the Writers' Salon at WriterCon, which went pretty much as you describe Concritathon. We actually filled out a form for each story in the following areas:

1. Summarize the story in your own words.
2. Does the story incorporate canon? Are the characters tonally right? When it veers off canon, is it conscious and consistent?
3. What was effective, beautiful, or excellent about this story? Give examples.
4. Which aspects of the story could use revision/expansion/trimming?

Which was all very helpful. Sometimes, though, you've just gotta do it your way. For instance, with the story I submitted, if there was something that somebody didn't like, somebody else loved it. Which means, as always, it's up to me to make the hard choices. *shrug*

That said, there's one fairly recent story that I cannot stand because I don't think that the POV character would behave that way. I'm clearly in the minority, however, as it is getting all sorts of critical acclaim and comment. The story is well-written, certainly, but I just can't buy it. I wonder if the people who do are all very young, or something, which is pretty uncharitable of me. *shrug* Just goes to show that everybody's got an opinion.

Squirrel!

[shapinglight]

Don't suppose you could tell me which story that is. You could PM me if you prefer.

Sounds like a worthwhile exercise anyway.

:makes a note of it for next year's Brit mini-Writercon:

[diachrony.livejournal.com]

Oh yes ... the writer I beta for went to the Writer's Salon (Concritathon) and afterward I looked over the concrit she received (it was for a story I'd beta'd very recently) and I found all the comments fascinating and useful in various ways, but one person's concrit was fairly shocking because she wanted to do away with ALL the parts that every other person had called out as being their favorites! Pretty much every single part that revealed the personality of the characters, she wanted to dump! It was very interesting - turns out she has an extremely spare writing style personally. One thing that concrit really helps with is solidifying your own style, becoming more clear what *you* want out of your own writing. Even if you disagree entirely with the concrit it's still helpful that way, particularly if you're receiving different opinions from different sources and can contrast and compare - it really helps you clarify your own vision.

[shapinglight]

Even if you disagree entirely with the concrit it's still helpful that way, particularly if you're receiving different opinions from different sources and can contrast and compare - it really helps you clarify your own vision.

This is quite true.

That's a fascinating story. I can sympathise with the spare prose writer. I used to have a far more loquacious style myself and have now become very impatient with it, and find myself skimming over anything in other people's stories that strikes me as filler. This is one reason why I now find the story I was talking about in my post rather unreadable.

[antennapedia.livejournal.com]

The job of an early reader is to figure out what the story is trying to be and do. What's the writer's intention with it? How does the current draft succeed with that intent? How does it fall short? What are some ways it could be changed to make it be what it wants to be even more than it is now? (Okay, that sentence was really squishy, but I think the meaning comes across anyway.) I point to problem spots and offer suggestions about how to fix them. I should never dictate. It should always be clear to the writer I'm working with that it's their vision that rules.

I need to enter the story's world and the writer's world. My opinions aren't in play. If I'm so out of sympathy with the characterization that I can't set aside my own stuff and read fairly, it's my job to say so and bow out.

And it all depends on what sort of reading the writer wants. If my job is just proofreading, then I'll bust out the comma usage brain and keep the story structure brain quiet.

The writer I'm reading for has to trust me in a number of ways. Trust me to read unfinished work and not judge the flaws. Trust me to give comments on the story and not on the writer as a person. (And vice versa: I always remind myself that my beta reader isn't gonna mock me when she reads stuff that doesn't work.) This is one reason it can't ever happen in public comments, I think, except about the most trivial stuff like typos.

[shapinglight]

Hi. First of all, apologies for being so slow responding. I wanted to have a good discussion on this post but at some point my brain seems to have keeled over and died.

Your comment sounds to me like a very good case for why a sympathetic beta is pretty much a must in fanfic writing, whereas concrit after the event is possibly less helpful, unless there is a consensus among the concritters, which might suggest to the writer they're all seeing the same fault and it's something the writer should do something about.

Your description of what you do as a beta sounds spot on to me. And in fact, if my beta had said to me in private, characters A&B would never do that, I doubt I'd ever have made this post. Instead, we would have discussed it between us and I might, if she'd been persuasive enough, have moderated what I'd written.

[rahirah]

"X would never do that" is not particularly helpful. "You didn't convince me that X would do that" has been very helpful on some occasions. I mean, there are some people that I'd never be able to convince that X would do that, no matter how carefully I set it up, but if I'm not convincing a majority of my readers, then something is wrong and I need to take a look at it.

[shapinglight]

Sorry for the slow reply, and "You didn't convince me that X would do that" has been very helpful on some occasions. true. That would be a lot more helpful

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sharvie_/]

You've hit the nail on the head as I far as I'm concerned. What Antennapedia says above is exactly how I beta as well. It's my job to figure out, or ask, what the writer/vidder is trying to get across. My likes and dislikes aren't important. I come at it as "Does this say what the artist wants to say?" And you tweak from there. It's about bringing the artist's vision to life, not mine.

If characterization is an issue, it's an issue about making the artist's new characterization shine through. If it's not coming across to the viewer/reader than you suggest what you think might make the new characterization stronger, not try and change the artist's intentions. And if someone is uncomfortable about what the artist is saying, though that's never happened to me, they yeah, they must tell the artist that they won't be an acceptable beta for the project, saving both of them a lot of grief.

I do admit though that I have become very comfortable with one vidder I work with and sometimes do say things like, "Ooo, that was so pretty! Can you do more of that!" But after working together for over a year she knows I don't want to usurp her vision.

[shapinglight]

It's about bringing the artist's vision to life, not mine.

That's what I try to do when I beta too, though I don't think I'm very good at it. Also, you and Barb are both right. If the characterisation in the story veers off from canon, the writer had better make it convincing.

Sorry for the late reply, btw. I think my brain died temporarily. It's still not 100% either (in fact, probably never is these days).

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Even though I've been writing fanfic on and off for a long time, I've only had a beta three times--the first two, all the beta did was correct spelling and tell me it was "good," and the third, the beta completely massacred the story with red marks and said with a final word, "_insert character_ would never do that." Now, I didn't mind the red marks--they were in fact extremely helpful, but to say that a character wouldn't make a certain action seems pretty biased to me, and having it said nearly ruined the story on my part, because I started to have doubts that the core of my story was actually OOC, and anyone who read it was going to hate it. Thus, I stopped writing it.

The truth is, characterization is based on a set of opinions about how one views the original story provided in the show. There are set facts and rules that make that character who he/she is, but how that character reacts in your story, with your situation, and your set of problems is entirely based on your view. And that, to me, is a gray area, and should never be judged on right/wrong mentality.

That's partially why when I accept or write critique, I favor those that avoid nitpicks about characterization other than a broad view. Sometimes characters are OOC on purpose, for good reason--CoA, for example. It's part of the story.

Mostly, like the others said, I view concrit as a list of pointers or corrections to improve the writer's vision of the story, not change it.

/babble. Yay for writey! Boo for rewritey! *hugs*

[shapinglight]

I'm sorry you had such a bruising encounter with a beta. Bruising betas can be helpful, but not if all they are is bruising. If this person couldn't point out what you'd done right as well as what you'd done wrong, they weren't doing their job properly but instead trying to write the story for you. Not helpful.

And yes, I would agree that characterisation is in large part based on opinion - witness the vast array of different interpretations of almost any character in the Buffyverse.

I think when it comes to post-story concrit, finding fault with the writer's interpretation of the characters isn't helpful. It's more to the point if their alternative (to the concritter's) characterisation has been internally consistent. That's my opinion anyway.

[elisi]

I'm so glad you mentioned this post, because I meant to comment on it and forgot.

the person spent a lot of time telling me that Characters A&B 'would never do that.' But the thing is, they had done it in this story, and aren't you supposed to crit what is actually there rather than what you think should be there?
Having s8 in my head, since StephenT wrote a post about it, this reminds me of 'Buffy would never rob banks', which a lot of us have complaining about. I think what we mean is 'We have not been given sufficient explanations as for *why* Buffy is robbing banks'. A good beta will catch stuff like that - mine certainly does, and I always heed her word. Even sometimes when I've ground to a halt I'll send her outlines or early drafts, saying 'I need A to do such-and-such, but s/he is not co-operating.' Which then generally produces some stellar advice.

And this has been all about beta-ing. Sorry. I'm not good on concrit.

[shapinglight]

I think what we mean is 'We have not been given sufficient explanations as for *why* Buffy is robbing banks'.

That's certainly my gripe with it, as it is with most of the off the wall stuff in the comic that we're continually told we should just get over and accept. :sigh:

As yesterday showed, it's still possible for both sides of the comics love/hate divide to feel like the injured party. You're well out of it.

And you're right that a beta can do/say things that are not always helpful when they are said in post-posting concrit.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

No, you got it perfectly right. I don't do long concrits, but I always do say what I think about a story after reading it, even if it is just a line or two.

[shapinglight]

Hello. Sorry to have been so slow answering this. I've been stupid this week and made all these posts where I haven't time to respond to people's comments.

Anyway, I'm glad you think I was right, though concrit? Always difficult.