Unpopular Fannish Opinions

[shapinglight]

So, first paper read through of the Darla fic raised the following points:

* Some of it is okay
* The POV character needs to be nastier
* The end is embarrassingly c**p.
* For goodness' sake, work out what exactly you want this story to say about Darla, can't you?

Fortunately, I have another three weeks to make it work, because something tells me I'm going to need every moment of them.

Expect more whinging on the subject later. In the meantime, you remember that 5 Unpopular Fannish Opinions meme that was doing the rounds a while back? I didn't do it of course, as I very rarely do memes and never while they're current, but while walking home, trying not to angst over the Darla fic (which was already displacement activity for not exploding with fury over the latest idiocies perpetrated by the minions of the Deathstar - don't ask), I started thinking about my 5 most unpopular (at least I think they are) fannish opinions.

More behind cut.



1) Riley is a sweetie-pie. Erm, well not quite perhaps, but I can't help liking the big idiot. He has all the makings of a nice person even if he did fall down badly in BtVS season 5. And besides, the poor bloke's married a robot and doesn't even seem to realise it. That should be payback enough, shouldn't it?

2) I love Cordy in AtS season 3 (except for the blonde hair). I don't think she was made into 'Saint' Cordy. I think she just grew up. And Angel/Cordy totally convinces me.

3) I prefer canon Spike/Buffy to fanfic Spike/Buffy. I actually find it quite difficult to read the pairing in fanfic and don't often do so. There are complicated reasons for this which I won't go into here, but suffice it to say my favourite Spike/Buffy fanfic is What She Deserves by herself_nyc. That might give those of you who've read it a clue where I'm coming from.

4) I don't think the scene in Empty Places where the Scoobies throw Buffy out of the house puts them in a bad light. I think what happened was necessary for both sides, Buffy because she needed time to sort her head out and realise she'd been coming on too strong, and the Scoobies to vent their feelings which they'd been bottling up for so long. They're not Buffy's cheerleading squad (that's Spike's job), they're human beings who've given and given until they can't give any more. Not without a rest and a chance to clear the air anyway.

5) Dollhouse is a better show than Firefly.

Oh what the hell. Might as well add a 6th for luck.

6) The BSG finale was great.

Comments

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love these memes! My reactions to your unpopular opinions:

1. I don't share this opinion, but I don't oppose it either. I don't love Riley; I don't hate him. I just flat don't care about him.

2. I love Cordy!! And I think A/C would be excellent for A and pretty good for C. Cordelia's arc goes south with the ascension, but not before then.

3. Totally agree. And I have read acres of fanfic because I wanted to find an emotional resolution for B/S that would work for me and I never did. Big word on What She Deserves, though. I might have to go reread that right away.

4. I can see this. I think it's weird that the Scoobies didn't take it up with her first. My brother's honest reaction was that a spell had been cast on them all. But people can bottle up and then explode in a less than ideal way.

5. I like FF more than you and DH a bit less, but I definitely don't have FF > DH. Maybe equal. Maybe a split decision depending on what angle you use to look at them. Until the Caroline/Echo problem resolves I can't be a 100% fan of DH, alas.

6. My unpopular opinion would be that BSG isn't all that. Good, but not great. And same for the finale.

[willowgreen.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm with you on #1! Maybe on #2, as well. As for the rest, I'm happy agreeing to disagree. :-)

[elisi]

I'll be back! But I think I agree on most of these. :)

ETA:

1) I rather like Riley, but... it's like sdwolfpup's 'Coin Operated Boy' - I watch it thinking 'Well Riley is rather nice', and then comes the bridge and Spike shows up and my insides just sort of flip-flop and I'm all 'Riley who?' *g*

2) Growing up is a good term. And I think that the visions helped a lot - particularly the fact that she *chose* to keep them. That was a huge commitment, and one she knew tied her to Angel for life, basically.

3) Oooh yes. Canon all the way.

4) Yes to this too. And I've written the meta to prove it! *g*

5) I've never seen Dollhouse, so I can't comment. Although considering the fact that I love Firfly to tiny little pieces (and yes, I know all the problems) I think this might be our only major disagreement.

And now I shall run away again. This was lovely - I've been looking after poorly people for days...

[calturner.livejournal.com]

I'm completely with you on #1, #2, #4 and #5 (although I do like Firefly). I've never really understood the Riley hate, and I loved Cordelia in AtS S3. As for #3, I love fanfic Spike/Buffy, but do prefer fanfic that's canon based. I liked what we saw on screen, so prefer stories that use canon as a starting point. I like my fanfic complex and angst-filled - but have to admit that I do like a happy (or at least hopeful) ending. :)

I can't comment on BSG, as I've only ever seen the first season.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

1. Hmmm... Kinda agree. I never saw Riley as a bad person per se. He's not too bright (viz his near-execution of Oz in "New Moon Rising" after having spent the whole night arguing the fact that Willow is dating a werewolf), he's a bit of a doofus, and he's the very definition of not being able to see and criticize his own perspective on things. But yeah, he's doing what he can. And good point about Sam. :-)

2. Hmmm... Kinda disagree. But that might be because it sets up Evil!Cordy in s4 and I really don't like that storyline at all.

3. Agree.

4. Agree.

5. Not yet.

6. *whistles innocently*

[shylahmask.livejournal.com]

I agree with all of these.

Ditto the Riley thing. I like him a bit, and I've never disliked him, although there's been no character of BtVS or AtS I've ever really hated. Except Eve, and that was only on the first viewing of season 5.

(#5 I only half have a similar opinion, because I was more entertained by Firefly than I am by Dollhouse, but the latter seems much more well crafted and I can appreciate it for that, too.)

[deird1]

Wow. I agree with you.

On every single point.

...except the BSG one, because I haven't seen it.

But seriously - agreement and more agreement! You are so so right!

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

General thought: I've thought most of these, if not as strongly. I'm fully with you on 1, 4 and 2 (except for a couple of scenes where Cordy seems to be nothing but an empathic nodder; but the character direction is one I'm happy with).

3 varies, in that I came into fandom obsessed with Spike and happy to read Spuffy; but in fact I don't read or write much Spuffy (with honourable exceptions like Herself and Barb, who I read religiously).

5, dunno. I love Firefly, and don't yet love Dollhouse (and sadly, basing it round Eliza weakens it). But it has potential.

6. Mainly yes too. I still have trouble seeing them all as voluntary nu!cavemen after all those years of technology, but the resolution of the people and situations I cared about were satisfying. And I include the total lack of resolution about Starbuck or whoever-she-was in season 4. Not everything has to make sense.

[rahirah]

1. Riley has his bad points, but I could never understand the need that some people have to paint him as a complete asshole.

2. I like Cordy for most of S3 - it was after Connor showed up and she got the glowy ill-defined superpowers that I started getting uneasy.

3. I'm pretty certain that's overwhelmingly the majority opinion, actually.

4. I think that the others were completely within reason to read the riot act to Buffy, or rebel against what seem to be senseless, dangerous plans on her part. It's the specific form the rebellion took which I find contrived and illogical (and then having their alternate plans literally blow up in their faces, creating the impression that the writers want us to think they were both foolish and selfish not to follow Buffy without question.)

5 & 6. No opinion.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Because of you, I spent all my free time today re-reading "What She Deserves" instead of getting work done. (Or, you know, writing porn.)

Just keep that in mind. ;)

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

1) I adore Riley. I loved Buffy/Riley. I've never really understood the instant fannish dislike for the character....but then again, I have Angel issues and well...

2) I mightily disliked Cordelia on Btvs. She was everything I hated about snobby high school girls. The first couple of seasons of Ats, I wavered weekly on like/dislike for her. By the time S4 rolled around though, I completely loathed the character.

3) I liked canon Buffy/Spike right up until Buffy beat Spike up in that alley.

4) I agree with you.

5) I'm not into Dollhouse.

[ruuger]

1) Definetely agree with you on this (though I do dislike the writers turning him into a complete ass in S5).

2) I don't really have an opinion of Cordelia, one way or another... I did dislike Angel/Cordy, though, because I preferred their friendship.

3) Agreed on this one as well. I think in my case it's because I only became a S/B shipper in S7 - I used to find the idea of the two of them ending up together during the 'good times' in S5 as fairly boring.

4) I sort of disagree... maybe? I don't think it was utterly unforgiveable for them to turn against Buffy, but on the other hand, she was under a lot of pressure at the time, so a better idea might have been to try to talk to her in private first, rather than doing an intervention.

5) I think Dollhouse does have the more interesting idea, but Firefly is much better done.

6) Haven't seen it, but I'm pretty sure we would disagree about this :)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

1) I find Riley to mostly be innocuous. Frankly, half the time I forget he existed.

2) I love Cordy, period. Well, except when she was possessed and/or having sex with Connor.

3) I'm going to second Rahirah's tl:dr post regarding canon vs. fanfic Spuffy. I need narrower limits. There are segments of canon Spuffy I love and segments that frustrate the hell out of me. There are fanfic versions of Spuffy I love, others which cause me to shudder and be horrified, and a few that make me fearful of slipping into a diabetic coma. Fanfic is such a broad spectrum that I don't generalize.

4) I think it takes a hell of a lot of nerve to kick Buffy out of her own house. If half the town is evacuating they could've relocated.

5) Re: Dollhouse and Firefly, neither premise does much for me.


6) I was quite okay with the BSG finale, albeit in general I found it to be overpraised. So basically, I didn't find the series to be a gosh darn perfect as many and conversely didn't find the finale to be as egregiously terrible as most. That and I pretty much hated Starbuck (talk about an UO fannish opinion).

[next_to_normal]

1. I don't dislike Riley, but I can't say I really like him that much, either. There are moments where he has my sympathy, and (except for at the end there) I don't think he's nearly as bad as everyone makes him out to be, but he doesn't quite have enough charm for me to really find him likable.

2. Disagree. I'm okay up until about mid-S3, but it's definitely downhill from the first time the word "kyrumption" is uttered.

3. I don't think there's really one "fanfic Spike/Buffy" - I like canon Spuffy, and I like several versions of fanfic Spuffy (mostly the ones that closely resemble canon Spuffy), but not all of them. I can't really say I like one more than the other because I like them all for different reasons.

4. I agree with you on an emotional level (i.e. they had a right to feel that way, and Buffy needed to hear it), but part of me still says you can't kick someone out of their own house.

5. Agreed. Though that's not really saying much for Dollhouse, since I dislike Firefly.

6. Agreed.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

1) I like Riley the same way I like Superman. He's really nice and I wouldn't mind being saved by him and in real life, and given a choice, he'd be the one I'd choose as a life partner, but he's just not as interesting as Batman or the Joker.

2) I love Cordy. Period. OTOH, I loathe Touched by a Cordy, evol Cordy and all things Cordy/Connor that don't involve the diapering of his ass. My favorite line of dialogue of all time is a Cordy line about tact and true stuff.

3) So very much yes and finding that kind of fic is incredibly difficult.

4) I agree.

5) I'm not so sure yet. I'm having some serious difficulties with Eliza's range that I never had with Sarah or any of the actors on Firefly. The potential is there, though.

6) The BSG finale was great. It would have been perfect if I'd gotten a little closure WRT Starbuck who, penis or no penis has always been my favorite BSG character. I found her simple disappearance to be jarring and unfulfilling.

[shapinglight]

I just flat don't care about him.

I guess I just feel a bit upset for him that he so often ends up being cast as the villain in fanfic. It makes me want to cuddle him (not that I would be able to reach).

Re: your 2, I agree it's at that point A/C goes horribly wrong. And I hate Cordy's story in season 4 (much as Charisma does, in fact).

Where's 3's concerned, I've very rarely come across a fanfic version of Spike/Buffy that I can cope with, which is not really fanfic's fault, if I can put it that way. It's canon's fault, in fact.

Re: the Scoobies' actions, I do agree that ME laid it on pretty thick, what with Dawn's 'Judas' kiss etc, but I just can't see it that way and when I re-watched season 7 a couple of years back, I couldn't believe Joss and co meant us to see it that way either.

My unpopular opinion would be that BSG isn't all that. Good, but not great. And same for the finale.

Believe it or not, I would agree with that (except that I wouldn't use the expression 'isn't all that.') This may partly explain why I'm happy with the finale.

[shapinglight]

Well, two out of - er, six isn't bad. :)

[shapinglight]

Re: Riley, I just like him, even though I totally agree with the people who think he's a douchebag in season 5. But of course, where Spike's concerned, there's no comparison.

I hope your poorly people are better soon.

[shapinglight]

The Spike/Buffy fanfic question is difficult for me. I'm not so particular when it comes to other pairings in fanfic and will happily write non-canon pairings, as you know.

In fact, it's the events of canon that affect my attitude to Spike/Buffy in fanfic. I hope that makes sense?

[shapinglight]

He's not too bright.

True, though of course the same could be said of all the cast, even the cleverest, when it was convenient for the plot. But Riley is definitely a doofus and he did behave badly to Buffy in season 5. But I persist in thinking that his heart's in the right place.

I hate the evil Cordy storyline too. I'd like to think it would never have happened if CC hadn't got pregnant, but from what I've read, they always meant to do it. Pity.

5. Not yet.

And it'll never get the chance if it's cancelled, I suppose, as it's highly unlikely Joss will ever be motivated/get the chance to make a feature film of it.

[shapinglight]

(#5 I only half have a similar opinion, because I was more entertained by Firefly than I am by Dollhouse, but the latter seems much more well crafted and I can appreciate it for that, too.)

To be honest, I didn't think anyone would agree with me on this, so am quite surprised that some people do (or almost do).

[shapinglight]

Wow. I agree with you.

On every single point.

Really? Oh boy! Even 5?

That's nice.

[shapinglight]

but the character direction is one I'm happy with).

Yes, me too, though I agree there are a few times that she's a bit too 'mother earth' Cordy. Hate what happened to her in season 4, though.

My problem with Spuffy fanfic is actually Spuffy canon, believe it or not. What happened in canon very much influences what fanfic I feel I can cope with. It's a sort of vicious circle.

Am glad you liked the BSG finale. I was happy with the end of Starbuck's story too.

[deird1]

See, I like Firefly. It's fun and occasionally thoughtful.

On the other hand, I think most of the obsessive Firefly Is The Best Show Evar!!!! comes from the fact that it was treated so horribly by the network, and left lots of fans in mourning.

It's fun, but it's not the absolute masterpiece people tend to claim it as.

Whereas Dollhouse has the potential to be brilliant.

[shapinglight]

1. Riley has his bad points, but I could never understand the need that some people have to paint him as a complete asshole.

No, me neither, though agree his behaviour is less than stellar in season 5.

3. I'm pretty certain that's overwhelmingly the majority opinion, actually.

Really? I had thought the opposite given various things I've read over the past few days. I'm not saying I prefer canon Spuffy to fanfic Spuffy because I think it's better, btw (or not always). It's just that because of canon events, there's only a narrow range of fanfic Spuffy I can deal with.

4. Hmm. I don't interpret what happened in quite the same way.

[shapinglight]

(Or, you know, writing porn.)

That is sad. :( :feels guilty:

On the other hand, it is a good story, isn't it?

[shapinglight]

I've never really understood the instant fannish dislike for the character....but then again, I have Angel issues and well...

I'm sure the fact he turned up so soon after Angel left didn't help, but not being much of a B/A fan, I don't feel that way myself. I wish poor old Riley didn't keep getting cast as the villain all the time though (even in the Buffy comic).

Sorry you didn't like Cordy. :(

[shapinglight]

1) Definetely agree with you on this (though I do dislike the writers turning him into a complete ass in S5).

They did, didn't they? Poor old Riley! Mind you, the only time I really hate him is when he kills poor Sandy the vampire. I thought that was mean.

I think I didn't really 'ship Spike/Buffy seriously until season 7, which seemed pretty pointless at the time, given the AR etc. Ah, to coin a Sunnydale expression, it's complicated.

I'm sure the whole throwing Buffy out of the house thing could have been handled better, but I do understand why it happened and sympathise with both sides (except Wood, who I think was only out to get more influence for himself).

5. You're right. I do remember Firefly looked like it cost a lot.

[shapinglight]

2) I love Cordy, period. Well, except when she was possessed and/or having sex with Connor.

Yes, pretty much how I feel.

As for the Spuffy thing, I don't feel the way I do because of any great love for the way Spuffy went in canon (though I do love season 7 Spuffy), but more because what happened in canon influences the way I feel about the 'ship so much that I can only really deal with fanfic that takes a fairly narrow angle. It's a thing.

Re: 4, I think it was needed just then, unfortunately, and I suppose it was Dawn's house too.

As for your 6, that's probably what comes closest to a genuinely unpopular fannish opinion in my whole post. Not like Starbuck? Heresy!

[shapinglight]

I always think Riley is so close to being a genuinely nice bloke. He falls far short in parts of BtVS season 5, but I still feel the potential is there.

My reasons for feeling the way I do about Spuffy fanfic are complicated. See my answers to rahirah and shipperx above.

Am glad you liked the BSG finale. :) We happy few - at least from what I've seen.

[shapinglight]

but he's just not as interesting as Batman or the Joker.

Quite true. He is a little dull, unfortunately. Nice, though (or mostly).

Glad you like Cordy, and agree with you that Cordy/Connor was horrible.

And another person who liked the BSG finale. Good to know. I love Starbuck too.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I cannot pinpoint at what point she did a tap dance on my last nerve and I cannot list any specific event that turned me off. All I know is that somewhere along the line, I began to think of Starbuck as a truly horrible human being... or whatever the hell she was. So, yeah, UO.

[shylahmask.livejournal.com]

I've changed a lot mentally in between the time I watched Firefly and Dollhouse, too, so if I'd watched Firefly for the first time today I might have had an entirely different opinion of it. I certainly haven't seen any episodes of Firefly since I was using it as research for that fic I put on hiatus. (And that was years ago!)

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

it is! *sigh* Wish I could write like that.

[rahirah]

The thing that makes me think that #3 is the majority opinion these days is that at this late date, many of the people who really couldn't stand the way the show turned out have left the fandom, or become less active. As new people come in, they tend to be people who saw the whole show at once on DVD. People who experience the show like that seem to be much more likely to accept the story as it was told rather than wishing something else had happened. Many of the people who say they prefer fanfic to canon aren't really active in the fandom any longer; they just pop up and wave their canes when one of the few remaining active curmudgeons posts something. The people who are actively posting fic and meta are almost all people who are happy, or at least content, with canon. (Or who only write human AU, making the whole question irrelevant.)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Agree on 3 and 4, especially on 3. :)
And I only prefer fanfic Angel/Spike because there's no canon...
Even though I read some excellent Spuffy fics, some of them yours. :)

Cordy in season 3 I mainly liked less than early!Cordy because of her hair. I love her character overall and the way she was treated by authors annoyed me. She would be a good match for Angel if she wasn't turned into a saint. Angel needed her sassiness and cutting through bullshit more than celestial/mystical thingies, IMHO. I wish her storyline in S4 never happened and she could to back to Earth and just be with Angel instead.

Firefly was my first fandom and my first being madly in love with on-screen product, so I'm not objective here. :)

[shapinglight]

I agree. I think it's a better concept than Firefly. That said, I am going to try and watch Serenity, because everyone says the western element (which I hate) is dialled down a lot and I might find it more palatable.

[shapinglight]

Hi Nata. Lovely to see you.

And I only prefer fanfic Angel/Spike because there's no canon...

Well, very little anyway, and nothing concrete enough to be satisfying. I prefer fanfic Spangel too.

I wish her storyline in S4 never happened and she could to back to Earth and just be with Angel instead.

I agree, and sorry if anything I said about Firefly either here or in my next post upset you. I do appreciate that a lot of people love it. It's just not for me.

[shapinglight]

I know what you mean. She's probably the best writer there's ever been in the fandom, except for maybe eliade.

[shapinglight]

Ah, I remember that fic. I didn't read it properly because I had no clue who the Firefly characters were at the time.

Can imagine shoehorning Spike into the Dollhouse actually.

[shylahmask.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about Spike in the Dollhouse. Depends on how he's written, I suppose. Barring the rare exception, I like my Spike, well -- Spike-like.

[shapinglight]

many of the people who really couldn't stand the way the show turned out have left the fandom, or become less active

True, and you're probably right. As for me, it took me several years to accept what we got instead of wanting something else, but it probably helps that I was only ever a part time Spuffy. Spike being redeemed somehow or other was always more important to me.

[shapinglight]

I dislike both her and Apollo in early season 3 when they're flirting like mad with each other while their embarrassed spouses look on - especially dislike Apollo when he sends Dee into mortal danger to save Starbuck's life.

Otherwise, though, have to say, I love her.

[shapinglight]

Oh me too, and I'm not much for crossovers, but I think he might fit.