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shapinglightI see the mysterious disappearing LJ comments phenomenon is still going on. Wonder what that's all about?
Anyway, after watching the second episode of True Blood last week and still finding the Bill/Sookie relationship about the least interesting thing in the show....
Very slight spoilers within for True Blood and Flash Forward ep 4
....I read some vague spoilers to do with season 3, in which the guy who developed the series (can't remember his name) said that, though other characters would be brought to the fore in the new season, the Bill/Sookie romance would still be the focal centre.
I suppose the show and the books it's based on were built around this romance (very Twilight, though I suppose the Sookie Stackhouse books came first?) so he didn't have much choice. I must say, though, I do think it's a mistake, because it hamstrings the story and prevents it going in the direction of what works. I mean, to this day, I am grateful that BtVS was about Buffy and how she grew up and found her place in the world, not about the great, eternal romance of Buffy and Angel. I liked B/A fine in season 2, but if the show had become all about B/A, I doubt I would have kept on watching - or rather, I might have done, but would have found myself watching for the secondary characters, not the leads, which is how I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up watching True Blood.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realise I'm not really a 'shipper. Which is not to say that I don't like romance at all, or that I don't like the characters I like to have romantic relationships. No, it's more that I tend to glom on to particular characters to a greater or lesser extent and go through their journey with them, seeing how they deal with what's thrown at them. In general, this is why I don't feel the need to identify with characters, or even necessarily like them, to find them interesting and want to watch them.
So yes, I wanted Spike/Buffy to work when I was watching the show in real time, but more because Spike wanted Buffy and because I loved him so much, I wanted him to have what he wanted. That didn't happen, or only sort of, but because Spike was still around, I was still happy enough to carry on watching. His personal arc was more important to me than his romantic relationships, which is probably one reason why I found his story so exasperating at times in AtS season 5, because he seemed to be going backwards.
I've previously identified myself as a Spike/Angel 'shipper too, but I'm not really one. I can happily 'ship Spike with lots of characters. I do like him to have romantic/sexual relationships. I just don't need them to be with one particular character.
As for other shows I've loved, like BSG, I've never really 'shipped anyone. I love Starbuck almost as much as I love Spike, but it's her character journey that interests me, not her romances as such. Which is not to say that I don't appreciate romantic (and otherwise) relationships are an important part of character development. Clearly they are. Without Buffy, Spike would still be a two-dimensional villain etc etc. But I'm not a 'shipper.
At least, I don't think so, but maybe I just don't understand the term properly. To me, it means being invested in a particular relationship and that relationship becoming the touchstone of the show, so that if that relationship bombs, it ruins the show for the 'shipper in question. Do other people interpret it differently?
In other telly-related news, I am watching season 4 of The Wire, and it's just as good and just as upsetting as I thought it would be. Bravura scene from Michael K Williams as Omar in the episode I watched today (not to mention some full-frontal nudity), and a horrific shock ending.
Finally, was disgusted to find at the end of last night's ep of Flash Forward that I was right. The characters with British accents are evil. How bloody predictable. Have to say, it's beginning to seriously annoy me. After all, we haven't done anything particularly horrid to Americans since the 1780s. How come we always get picked on?
Anyway, after watching the second episode of True Blood last week and still finding the Bill/Sookie relationship about the least interesting thing in the show....
Very slight spoilers within for True Blood and Flash Forward ep 4
....I read some vague spoilers to do with season 3, in which the guy who developed the series (can't remember his name) said that, though other characters would be brought to the fore in the new season, the Bill/Sookie romance would still be the focal centre.
I suppose the show and the books it's based on were built around this romance (very Twilight, though I suppose the Sookie Stackhouse books came first?) so he didn't have much choice. I must say, though, I do think it's a mistake, because it hamstrings the story and prevents it going in the direction of what works. I mean, to this day, I am grateful that BtVS was about Buffy and how she grew up and found her place in the world, not about the great, eternal romance of Buffy and Angel. I liked B/A fine in season 2, but if the show had become all about B/A, I doubt I would have kept on watching - or rather, I might have done, but would have found myself watching for the secondary characters, not the leads, which is how I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up watching True Blood.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more I realise I'm not really a 'shipper. Which is not to say that I don't like romance at all, or that I don't like the characters I like to have romantic relationships. No, it's more that I tend to glom on to particular characters to a greater or lesser extent and go through their journey with them, seeing how they deal with what's thrown at them. In general, this is why I don't feel the need to identify with characters, or even necessarily like them, to find them interesting and want to watch them.
So yes, I wanted Spike/Buffy to work when I was watching the show in real time, but more because Spike wanted Buffy and because I loved him so much, I wanted him to have what he wanted. That didn't happen, or only sort of, but because Spike was still around, I was still happy enough to carry on watching. His personal arc was more important to me than his romantic relationships, which is probably one reason why I found his story so exasperating at times in AtS season 5, because he seemed to be going backwards.
I've previously identified myself as a Spike/Angel 'shipper too, but I'm not really one. I can happily 'ship Spike with lots of characters. I do like him to have romantic/sexual relationships. I just don't need them to be with one particular character.
As for other shows I've loved, like BSG, I've never really 'shipped anyone. I love Starbuck almost as much as I love Spike, but it's her character journey that interests me, not her romances as such. Which is not to say that I don't appreciate romantic (and otherwise) relationships are an important part of character development. Clearly they are. Without Buffy, Spike would still be a two-dimensional villain etc etc. But I'm not a 'shipper.
At least, I don't think so, but maybe I just don't understand the term properly. To me, it means being invested in a particular relationship and that relationship becoming the touchstone of the show, so that if that relationship bombs, it ruins the show for the 'shipper in question. Do other people interpret it differently?
In other telly-related news, I am watching season 4 of The Wire, and it's just as good and just as upsetting as I thought it would be. Bravura scene from Michael K Williams as Omar in the episode I watched today (not to mention some full-frontal nudity), and a horrific shock ending.
Finally, was disgusted to find at the end of last night's ep of Flash Forward that I was right. The characters with British accents are evil. How bloody predictable. Have to say, it's beginning to seriously annoy me. After all, we haven't done anything particularly horrid to Americans since the 1780s. How come we always get picked on?
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Date: 2009-10-20 04:20 pm (UTC)Or something like that ;-)
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Date: 2009-10-20 04:31 pm (UTC)Plus, suave, sexy British villains are just so darn much fun! Give me a sexy British villain over a degenerate German or a foppish Frenchman any day. :-)
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:09 pm (UTC)In other words, we're a soft target. :sigh:
One of the reasons why it particularly irks me this time is that one of the Brit villains is Dominic Monaghan. I hated Charlie in Lost - put me right off the actor.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 04:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:11 pm (UTC)That's good - and bad too, I guess, if there are loads and loads of Bill/Sookie 'shippers out there insisting theirs is a forever love and the producers don't want to piss them off.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 04:56 pm (UTC)Ah. I haven't even set eyes on Eric yet. I think he first turns up in ep 4. So far, I like Tara and Lafayette the best.
The only reasons I can see Bill/Sookie being a bigger issue in the series than in the books is that 1) Anna Paquin and Stephen Moyer are together in real life,
Yes, I read about that. Maybe by the time season 4 comes to be filmed (if there is one), they will have split up, just like in the books, who knows? But yes, I would imagine it has an effect.
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Date: 2009-10-20 05:11 pm (UTC)But I'm not a 'shipper.
At least, I don't think so, but maybe I just don't understand the term properly. To me, it means being invested in a particular relationship and that relationship becoming the touchstone of the show, so that if that relationship bombs, it ruins the show for the 'shipper in question. Do other people interpret it differently?
Yes, that is how I define it as well and the reason why I don't consider myself really a shipper. I was more interested in the individual character's emotional/personal arcs. Romance only works for me to the extent that it evolves the character. If we are just going around in the same circle over and over and over (eg. B/A, Sookie/Bill or 85% of the buddy cop procedurals on tv) then I get bored and flip channels.
Regarding True Blood? Yes, it pre-dates Twilight. The books are actually better written than Twilight (although not by much)
and more into the politics of the vampire world. In the books, the author rapidly gets bored of B/S and moves onto S/Eric and S/Werewolf, and S/Tigershifter, then back to S/Eric again.
Actually the books are - who can we put Sookie with this time?
Alan Ball is only on the third book. S/B don't break up until about the third or fourth book. S's romantic life is the focal point of the books. And outside of S/E - it is pretty dull.
I've heard season 2, True Blood is better than Season 1. Found Season 1 to be fairly dull - except for the Tara, Sam, and Rafelle arcs.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:13 pm (UTC)It's pretty dull. Not sure why I'm bothering really.
Romance only works for me to the extent that it evolves the character. If we are just going around in the same circle over and over and over (eg. B/A, Sookie/Bill or 85% of the buddy cop procedurals on tv) then I get bored and flip channels.
Yes, me too. Other people in the thread have said the same, about how Bill/Sookie isn't nearly such a big thing in the books. Maybe the show will change course to reflect that at some point? I hope so.
Actually the books are - who can we put Sookie with this time?
Oh dear, really? That sounds more like a fanfiction job to me.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:47 pm (UTC)That was my impression from the pilot. No one appealed to me characterwise. Wasn't sure why. I have it DVR'd, but just haven't gotten around to seeing the episodes saved on the DVr. May delete them. Too many tv shows, no time, and 80% of them just don't hold my interest for some reason.
how Bill/Sookie isn't nearly such a big thing in the books. Maybe the show will change course to reflect that at some point? I hope so
If memory serves...and it has been a while, the author more or less breaks them up permanently in the third or fourth novel. It has to do with the vampire queen, who (in the books) was also Bill's sire. But isn't in the tv series, as far as I can tell. Not sure they'll do the same here or not. It was a permanent break up in the books and once it happened, we rarely saw Bill after that.
Oh dear, really? That sounds more like a fanfiction job to me.
Exactly. Half these novels, not just Harris, L.K. Hamilton falls into the same trap, really are like fanfiction...except not as well written and cost money.
And my boss just snuck up behind me to ask what the significance of a dollar nailed to a sign behind my cubicule was. (I've no idea). Jumped half an inch. UGH! I want an office with a door.
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Date: 2009-10-21 04:59 pm (UTC)Well, I've watched 4 episodes now and there still isn't a single character I care less about.
Everyone else too is saying that as time goes on Bill pretty much disappears. I wonder how the show will work it? I can't believe they'll just ditch the character.
Sorry about your boss. Was he trying to imply that time is money or something?
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Date: 2009-10-21 05:48 pm (UTC)No. There was literally a dollar bill stuck to a poster about covering your cough, just outside my cubicule. I seriously doubt he knew what I was doing.
Everyone else too is saying that as time goes on Bill pretty much disappears. I wonder how the show will work it? I can't believe they'll just ditch the character.
The show isn't following the books that closely. Tara is white in the books and has a tiny, tiny role, barely appears. Sam also disappears at different points, we rarely see him. Jason becomes a werepanther in the first or second book (which he doesn't do in the series).
Rafelle is also a tiny tiny part in the books. And there's a character played by Michelle Forbes in the series that doesn't exist in the books. The series is actually a lot more interesting than the books are and less focused on Sookie and her romances. The books are romance novels with a touch of mystery, and the series appears to be the opposite. It's also gorier than the books.
I don't think they'll ditch Bill - Stephen Meyer has a following and his character is actually more interesting than in the books.
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Date: 2009-10-23 09:34 am (UTC)Who is Rafaelle? I don't think I've met him yet, unless he's the Latino character who slapped around the frat boy type in the bar for inappropriate touching of Sookie. Was that him?
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Date: 2009-10-23 04:59 pm (UTC)Oh you have. I just may have gotten his name wrong. He's the hot gay black chef/drug dealer who is related to Tara. In the books, he was just a black and gay chef who gets killed off and we get very little of. In the tv series, he's a major character. The tv series really expanded on the supporting roles of Tara, Rafe, and Sam. The only thing that stays true to the books is the S/B and Eric and Pam storyline. Everything else doesn't. And ironically, the only parts I liked about the tv series are the parts that are completely different from the books.
PS: You apparently shipped *hard* the same characters I did. Starbuck and Spike. Without caring too much about their romantic entanglements except to the extent that it furthered their arc. I was thinking it over last night, and I think the reason I adored Starbuck (kara thrace) and Spike so much is they are in some respects flips of the traditional gender trope. Spike is a flip on the femme fatale with a heart of gold, and Kara is a flip on the devilish rogue fighter pilot/womanizer.
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Date: 2009-10-26 03:30 pm (UTC)Spike is a flip on the femme fatale with a heart of gold, and Kara is a flip on the devilish rogue fighter pilot/womanizer.
Yes, yes! So true.
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Date: 2009-10-20 05:48 pm (UTC)Spike/Buffy is kind of an anomaly for me. I hardly ever get invested in a particular pairing, and even in this case, I only really shipped them after the show was over (i.e. reading and writing fanfic), so the fact that it didn't work out didn't ruin the show for me at all. Even if they'd never gotten together at all, I'd still love the show and love them as individual characters.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:18 pm (UTC)I don't actually know anyone like that, but I'm pretty sure they exist. Very odd IMO.
I only really shipped them after the show was over (i.e. reading and writing fanfic), so the fact that it didn't work out didn't ruin the show for me at all.
I think there's a lot to be said for coming to a show 'after the fact' as it were. It's the same with me for BSG. Other people have hated various developments in the show whereas I've just taken them in my stride because it was all done and dusted by the time I got around to watching it and I wasn't expecting anything in particular anyway.
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Date: 2009-10-20 05:56 pm (UTC)(That's all I can manage for now, it's been a LONG day.)
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:19 pm (UTC)I'd agree with that, though I only really count romantic/sexual relationships as proper 'ships. The friendship type ones are in a different mental box for me.
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Date: 2009-10-21 04:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 05:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 05:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 06:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:20 pm (UTC)I hope you're right and I'll look forward to seeing them. At the moment, I'm only at the very beginning of season 1.
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Date: 2009-10-20 06:47 pm (UTC)I'm with you on shipping, in that I like to see a relationship between characters (usually between Spike and someone) but I don't really care very much who. I just wrote a draft of my noel_of_spike fic that involves Spike/Riley--definitely a first for me (unless you count the fic where crazy/evil!Riley tortured and raped Spike *g*). In any case, the characters themselves and their journeys are more important to me than the specific identity of their love interest (if they have a love interest, even).
Sookie dumps Bills by the 3rd or 4th book, I think. He remains a character, but much more peripherally. I didn't miss the romance between them at all. I've said it before--Eric's way more fun.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:23 pm (UTC):scratches head: Never heard of it. Weren't we a bit busy fighting Napoleon then?
In any case, the characters themselves and their journeys are more important to me than the specific identity of their love interest (if they have a love interest, even).
Yep. Definitely. And Spike's about the only character I'm interested in pairing with multiple partners (either singly, or all at once :)). I just like imagining how he would relate to them.
I've said it before--Eric's way more fun.
Haven't even set eyes on the bloke yet.
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Date: 2009-10-21 03:06 pm (UTC):scratches head: Never heard of it. Weren't we a bit busy fighting Napoleon then?
You were. But you were also blocking US trade with France and supporting Native Americans who were trying to avoid US conquest. We invaded Canada. It was an even more stupid war than most. At the end, we both said, "Oh, nevermind," and that was sort of the end of it.
Yep. Definitely. And Spike's about the only character I'm interested in pairing with multiple partners (either singly, or all at once :)). I just like imagining how he would relate to them.
Me, too. Well, okay, I admit it. I just plain old like Spike, pretty much no matter what. :-)
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Date: 2009-10-21 05:02 pm (UTC)That sounds like one of our better wars, though I'm sure we had ulterior motives where the poor Native Americans were concerned.
I just plain old like Spike, pretty much no matter what. :-)
Yep. :)
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Date: 2009-10-21 05:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-20 07:27 pm (UTC)I ship Spuffy insofar as it's the relationship within the show I most enjoy and because it brings out so much in Spike that is interesting. Other ships I prefer to have at least some basis in canon - so Spike/Tara makes no sense to me, or Angel/Willow for that matter. The world of the show and in particular the complexity of the characters, especially Spike is the main draw, though.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:26 pm (UTC)A normal, not-evil guy, you mean? Glad to know I'm not the only one whose slightly irritated by this.
The world of the show and in particular the complexity of the characters, especially Spike is the main draw, though.
Yes, and like you Spike/Buffy is the canon 'ship I enjoy the most. I don't mind if 'ships have no basis in canon, but there are some I have absolutely zero interest in, even when it's Spike paired with the other character.
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Date: 2009-10-20 08:00 pm (UTC)I think others already wrote it, but be not worried about True Blood. Bill is decidedly not forever, something I really liked about the books(though they often focus on romance too much for my liking).
The show changes stuff from the books, but the way they're setting things up in S2, they seem to want to speed up. I really hope they make it to season 4, it's easily my favorite book.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:27 pm (UTC)Yes, me too, though I also love Spike/Giles and Spike/Wesley which aren't canon at all.
The show changes stuff from the books, but the way they're setting things up in S2, they seem to want to speed up. I really hope they make it to season 4, it's easily my favorite book.
I hope so. I have visions of a legion of rabid Sookie/Bill 'shippers all insisting that the relationship has to stay exactly as it is, or else they'll stop watching.
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Date: 2009-10-21 04:54 pm (UTC)Also the think that happens in the books between Sookie and Bill sets the past realtionship into a whole new light. I even feel a little sorry for Sookie/Bill shippers because it's just messed up.
And oh yes! Spike/Giles is one of my favorite ships too. I guess can't say that I have much of a need to settle for one.
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Date: 2009-10-23 09:26 am (UTC)Could well be the case. :)
I even feel a little sorry for Sookie/Bill shippers because it's just messed up.
Ah. Is this something that got missed out of the show, or I just haven't seen it yet?
And squee! another Spike/Giles fan.
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Date: 2009-10-21 12:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:34 am (UTC)I've never shipped any characters other than Buffy and Spike. I'm disappointed that the two of them never really got together. But it didn't ruin the whole show for me.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:30 pm (UTC)But if you 'ship a couple that never even met in canon, there's no way canon can disappoint you, is there? If you 'ship one that is canon, it can. That's the difference.
I'm disappointed that the two of them never really got together. But it didn't ruin the whole show for me.
I know. I'm not saying that every 'shipper takes it that much to heart, but there are undoubtedly some that do.
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Date: 2009-10-21 01:02 pm (UTC)The thing I like about the Sookie books: a lot of gritty realism. People break up and Sookie is allowed to be petulant about it. She has to stop in the middle of a murder investigation to mow her lawn, or do the laundry, or make it in to her shift at work.
The thing that's unbelievable is that she keeps coming across these drop-dead hot guys who are well-to-do AND single. What are the odds, seriously? And not one of them a dead-beat.
Forget about the vampires, that's the supernatural element in the books!
Also, as a northern, city-dwelling gal, I'm not too found of her frequent asides about snobby city-dwellers and rude northerners. But I assume that's the prejudices of the character... even if she reads minds and the author has her prejudices backed up 100% of the time... grr.
These books are mind-candy. I've read the first seven and am tempted to go out and find the eighth. I do think Anna Paquin captures the character very well.
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:32 pm (UTC)The thing that's unbelievable is that she keeps coming across these drop-dead hot guys who are well-to-do AND single. What are the odds, seriously? And not one of them a dead-beat.
Forget about the vampires, that's the supernatural element in the books!
Heh! Anyway, I hope you're right and the show won't get stuck in a Bill/Sookie4eva groove because the makers are worried about upsetting people.
I have no idea how popular Bill/Sookie is, but I'm guessing it must be quite
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Date: 2009-10-21 02:44 pm (UTC)I don't write Spuffy or Spangel because I think Spike and Buffy (or Spike and Angel) should OMG be together forevah! - I write it because the relationships are interesting. (Read; Provide fodder for abusing Spike.)
I think 'shipping itself is in a way a form of blindness, like that teen romance, because ultimately the truth is, it's not the one true pairing that creates a happy relationship, it's being a balanced person, receptive to your partner and all that mumbo-jumbo. So, like you said, it's about the individual character arc, not the couple. A lot of shipping seems co-dependant to me, like this one person will fix the other person's life? EEK. Look at how some fanfics start with all sorts of contortions to make the pairing the end-all be all "Xander never met Anya and Spike isn't in love with Buffy and Riley never left" etc. If ya gotta force it, you're hiding.
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Date: 2009-10-21 05:07 pm (UTC)Some people did. Mostly, they agreed with me, I think.
Although I suppose I'm guilty of anti-shipping because Bangel just makes me shudder
I'm guilty of it too, though in my case it's not any RL relationship of my own that's the cause of it, more some nasty encounters with some very extreme B/A 'shippers. Enough to put you off anything. I kind of bristle now whenever I see anyone describe themselves as a B/A 'shipper, which is unfair, I know, but that's fandom for you.
I don't write Spuffy or Spangel because I think Spike and Buffy (or Spike and Angel) should OMG be together forevah! - I write it because the relationships are interesting. (Read; Provide fodder for abusing Spike.)
Yep, pretty much, including the last paragraph, though I think I'm less keen on making Spike's life a misery than I used to be. No, really. Stop laughing!
If ya gotta force it, you're hiding.
Yep.
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Date: 2009-10-21 01:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-21 02:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-10-22 06:28 am (UTC)I pretty much stand where Barb stands in the sense that I never shipped any characters other than Buffy and Spike and when I enjoy shows I don't feel the need to ship anyone . I can be interested in romances but I don't really mind if there isn't ( like in Being Human and I do hope it will remain like this).
I would say I'm a Spike/Buffy lover more than a shipper.
I agree that that their relationship had become the touchstone of the show for me ..Their story enhanced tenfold the pleasure of the series and I wouldn't have felt the need to go into the spuffy fandom otherwise but it didn't ruin the show- even if I often wished to get much,much more between them.
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Date: 2009-10-23 09:30 am (UTC)That's a nice description. And certainly it's true that I've come across some 'shippers who either actively dislike one of the pairing they 'ship or see them as the other character's accessory in some way. That's something that distinguishes 'shippers from 'lovers' for sure.