Buffy is very much of the now, while history, of course, is of the then

[shapinglight]

It's my noel_of_spike posting day tomorrow. :sigh: Still not happy with the damn story, but I suppose I shall just have to post it.

Anyway, in a rather more positive vein where fic writing's concerned, doing the Darla ficathon made me want to write more historical fics, which made me remember two things:



The first of these is that, any historical fics involving Spike would have to involve Dru in some way. She doesn't have to be in the story in person, of course, but if she's not, there has to be a good reason for it. It's canon (that bloody word again) that for 100 years plus she was the centre of Spike's world and if he wasn't with her, he was probably thinking about her.

I suppose this makes me sound like I don't like Dru or Spike/Dru, which really isn't the case. It's just that I find their relationship so nebulous, given that we saw so little of it in the show except how it ended, that it's hard for me to get a grip on it or to believe that Dru was as important to Spike as we know she was.

Still, ways around it, I suppose, and the best way to get over dislike/disinterest in a character or relationship is to write it.

The second thing I remembered was my occasional frustration with the glaring historical errors scattered throughout the two shows. Sometimes it's factual errors, such as the presence of a woman like Darla (not to mention her beautiful house with the fluttering curtains) in Virginia in 1609, or the costumes at Cecily's party in FFL, which are all wrong, except for Cecily's own. Sometimes it's errors of sensibility, like the whole set up of William's home life with his mother in LMPTM. I'm pretty sure Fury/Goddard (I think it was them that wrote the episode) are trying to show us that William is a soppy little mummy's boy. In fact, they do show us that, but of course a grown man living with his mother in 1880 wasn't anything unusual and you can't infer that William would be a mummy's boy simply from his domestic arrangements.

However, just because Joss and co are very much of the now, doesn't mean we can't enjoy ourselves with their version of the then, does it?

:rubs hands: Where to start, where to start?

Comments

[gillo]

Let's not forget the language at Cecily's party. What gentleman would use the word "bloody" in front of a lady? And what Englishman would ever, then or now, talk about rail

road

spikes?

My personal theory, especially after some of teh reading I've done of late, is that it was a high-class whorehouse and William didn't realise it, or lacked sufficient cash, when Cecily was looking for a rich man to "keep her". (Or Halfrek was planning a particularly nasty vengeance on most of the guests there, which required William to be turned...)

[shapinglight]

What gentleman would use the word "bloody" in front of a lady?

Unless of course, as you suggest, they aren't ladies? peasant_ once suggested they could have been actresses or something shocking like that (which could also explain why the woman with the screechy voice is wearing the clothes and hairstyle of the 1830s rather than 1880s - she's come straight to the party from the stage). If they were, that could also explain why Cecily had run off upstairs and why she was in such a filthy mood. Heh!

I like your theory too. Still puzzled how ME got this so wrong, when the party in the flashback scene in Amends isn't too bad.

I hope you're having a nice birthday, btw?

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Still puzzled how ME got this so wrong, when the party in the flashback scene in Amends isn't too bad.

I am embarrassed for my fellow Americans - the ME ones, that is - who apparently thought that everything British or American from 1800 through 1918 was all exactly the same thing.

I am also embarrassed that apparently they were not embarrassed.

[shapinglight]

who apparently thought that everything British or American from 1800 through 1918 was all exactly the same thing.

It is a little bizarre that they got even their own history wrong (the Virginia Colony scene). The C18th scenes aren't too bad, except for Holtz, who is from the previous century altogether. It's like he's strayed off the set of The Witchfinder General.

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

*sporfle* See, I've never watched the episode with the "Darla Gets Turned for the First Time" flashback, and I've always stupidly assumed that the setting was a little mud hut with wattle-and-daub walls or something, perhaps inside a primitive stockade. But...fluttering curtains? Oh, lord, this I've GOT to see! XD

[shapinglight]

But...fluttering curtains? Oh, lord, this I've GOT to see!

It's actually a very good episode, I think, in spite of the ahem! loose adherence to historical fact. Hope you enjoy it.

[gillo]

Actresses would work too - and William's Mum would be too naive to realise the shocking company her son had got into (ever seen

Topsy Turvey

?) I've recently been reading Harriette Wilson's memoirs, and it's clear that in the Regency period at least there was an entire high-class demi-monde in London as there was in Paris (

La Dame aux Caméllias/La Traviata

) - so perhaps Cecily is high-class ware on display, either for the highest bidder or as a trophy courtesan.

Very nice birthday, thanks - F made a surprise trip home for the day and we went out for a lovely meal, followed by slight food coma! Now watching Alan Bennett, with Prunella Scales as the Queen. And just a drop of wine to go with...

[shapinglight]

(ever seen Topsy Turvey?)

I haven't, but I've always meant to. Maybe this Christmas, if it's on?

so perhaps Cecily is high-class ware on display, either for the highest bidder or as a trophy courtesan.

Could be, could be. At one point, her accent developes a distinct northern twinge, which suggests she's either putting on the posh accent, or that Daddy is a bluff self-made man who will suddenly run into to the room yelling, "Eh,oop, Cecily lass. There's trouble up at t'mill."

Glad you had a nice birthday and wish I'd remembered the Alan Bennett play. I enjoyed that one the first time I saw it. We were watching part 1 of Small Island.

[gillo]

Glad you had a nice birthday and wish I'd remembered the Alan Bennett play. I enjoyed that one the first time I saw it. We were watching part 1 of

Small Island

.

Dammit! I

knew

there was something else on I wanted to watch yesterday evening! Was it good?

And I love the idea of Cecily's dad being a Northern Stereotype. Except that there was no such things as a northern accent in Historical Jossverse. Remember the total lack of any accent in Holtz's family?

[shapinglight]

Was it good?

Yes, it was excellent, and very beautiful to look at. There were a few scenes that were pretty upsetting, though.

Remember the total lack of any accent in Holtz's family?

I suppose you could explain their lack of accent by saying their name implies they were German immigrants? Though why I should want to make excuses for ME, I don't know.

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

And what Englishman would ever, then or now, talk about railroad spikes?

And indeed, as I pointed out in my story 'Just Not Cricket', English railways didn't use spikes at all. Perhaps it was a party at the American Embassy? It wouldn't have been obvious because Ferrero Rocher hadn't been invented in 1880.

[shapinglight]

It wouldn't have been obvious because Ferrero Rocher hadn't been invented in 1880.

:snerk: Yes, it had. It was invented by the gods of Olympus, remember?

[speakr2customrs.livejournal.com]

But the secret of Ferrero Rocher didn't fall from Olympus to Earth, where it was found by the Ferrero family, until 1980 and it didn't become the standard confection at Ambassadors' Balls until 1990.

[shapinglight]

Ah, of course. No wonder everyone at those balls looks stoned.

[gillo]

Perhaps it was a party at the American Embassy? It wouldn't have been obvious because Ferrero Rocher hadn't been invented in 1880.

Divine!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Let's not forget the language at Cecily's party.

Language? Let's talk "Selfless", shall we? But I'll forgive them for that one, it's just too funny to complain about...

[shapinglight]

Is it that bad, then? Until you and kseenaa said, I wasn't sure it was even real Swedish.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Well, the script is passable (if very oddly phrased and probably auto-translated) Swedish. 20th century Swedish, which has about as much in common with what would have been spoken in 880 AD as Beowulf does with Fight Club, but still; passable. What comes out when the actors pronounce it, though... Benrubi actually gets one or two words right occasionally, but I'm pretty sure Caulfield is just speaking random gibberish half the time. But hey, rule of funny. And at least it's a lot better than the German in "Gingerbread."

"The troll is making a personification of Olaf! Beat him with fruit and permutations of meat!"

[shapinglight]

Benrubi actually gets one or two words right occasionally, but I'm pretty sure Caulfield is just speaking random gibberish half the time.

Perhaps she thought no one Swedish would ever see it? I'm glad it was funny anyway. I might have been able to ignore the silly mistakes to do with the Brit setting in the Buffy comic if they'd actually been funny.

[gillo]

The October Revolution stuff in Russia lacked a certain authenticity too, but, again, gets the Free Pass of Hilariousness.

[shapinglight]

Yes, agreed. Mind you, I'm sure there are plenty of people in the US who think the Communist Revolution in Russia was brought about by demons.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

Ooh. I love history, so some historical Spike fic (with correct historical facts) would be absolutely lovely, with or without Dru.

And I'm looking forward to tomorrow!

[shapinglight]

And I'm looking forward to tomorrow!

:(

I would like to write some Spike/Dru historical. Maybe that's the way to get around my difficulties with the relationship? I've read lots of historical Spike/Dru, including one set in the 20s. Maybe that would be a good decade to pick? Dru would look great in a flapper dress.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

The 20s would be fun! Flapper dress and, if they were in the US, gangsters and speakeasies and bootleggers. Spike would look pretty sharp in a 20s suit, too.

[shapinglight]

and, if they were in the US, gangsters and speakeasies and bootleggers.

I think if they weren't in the US, they would soon go there. They wouldn't be able to resist the lure of the forbidden.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

I agree! And they'd fit in well, I think.

[shapinglight]

Oh definitely. Have you read herself_nyc's Manhatten Nocturne? It's set in NYC in the 20s, and is just brilliant. Dru doesn't get much of a look in, though. I suspect Herself has a similar problem with Spike/Dru to me.

[whichclothes.livejournal.com]

No, I haven't read that one, but now I will. Thanks for the rec!

(and I fear writing Dru--I think she's really, really hard to write well)

[shapinglight]

(and I fear writing Dru--I think she's really, really hard to write well)

Oh definitely. Try hello_spikey's Madcap Redemption if you want a Dru-writing masterclass.

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

Here's a great one-shot fic in which Spike & Dru enjoy the jazz world of 1920s Harlem, New York:

O, Little Breath of Oblivion by deadsoul820
http://deadsoul820.livejournal.com/41230.html

It's got wonderful atmosphere, with an evil Spike who still manages to feel sympathy and admiration for the black performers (which include Louis Armstrong and Bessie Smith), and a perfect, startling ending.

[shapinglight]

Thanks, Socky. I might have read that, I'm not sure, but I'll definitely go back and give it another look.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

I'm very fond of Dru, myself, and my only regret of writing Darla in Jane Austen's time was not being able to have Dru there. :D

I find it somewhat frustrating that a lot of Victorian Spike stories have Dru off-stage, usually by fobbing her off on Angelus or tying her up or putting Darla AND Dru off "shopping" or something. (Usually so the slash can be explored without interruption.)

I'd love to see more "fanged four" with Darla and Dru in strong roles, myself. I loves me some slash, but I want the ladies to have equal time!
:D

[shapinglight]

and my only regret of writing Darla in Jane Austen's time was not being able to have Dru there. :D

I know what you mean. I have this idea for an Angelus/Darla fic set in the 1760s, and it frustrates me no end that I can't even name drop Spike and Dru.

I find it somewhat frustrating that a lot of Victorian Spike stories have Dru off-stage, usually by fobbing her off on Angelus or tying her up or putting Darla AND Dru off "shopping" or something. (Usually so the slash can be explored without interruption.)

Heh! I wrote a fic once in which Darla lets Angelus think she's after William, so Angelus jumps in first to forestall her, but all the time Darla wants to go shopping with Dru. Have to admit, I love Darla/Dru as a slash pairing, but find it hard to imagine Darla being that interested.

She must have been, though, because I'm pretty sure if she'd wanted rid of Dru, she would have found a way.

I'd love to see more "fanged four" with Darla and Dru in strong roles, myself. I loves me some slash, but I want the ladies to have equal time!

It is tricky to find something for all four of them to do at once. peasant_ has this theory that three characters work in a scene but choreographing four is a lot more difficult. What do you think?

I haven't managed to write anything like that myself. Haven't written that many historicals, but usually one at least of the four is missing.

You do write a terrific Spike/Dru. I completely believe in them when you write them.

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

Four is a lot harder than three, I agree. When you have three characters in a scene, you can have pro-arguer, con-arguer, and neutral-facilitator, which is a nice way to break up an argument. Really, the more characters you have, in general, the harder it gets to juggle, but having more characters on tap, I think, makes a richer narrative. More complications, you know?

[shapinglight]

More complications, you know?

Yes, there is that.

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Yesh! So, on with the historical ficcage! :D

but of course a grown man living with his mother in 1880 wasn't anything unusual and you can't infer that William would be a mummy's boy simply from his domestic arrangements.

I ditto this. I like to think that although William did love his mummy very much, and he WAS a bit of a sap, he was also capable enough in his own right. After all, Angelus took characteristics from Liam, ect, so it makes sense that some of that abominable will of Spike started in William well before Dru got hold of him. And that's without going into the whole bad boy thing, because I bet William had the temptation, even if he never succumbed pre-bite. :)

It's just that I find their relationship so nebulous, given that we saw so little of it in the show except how it ended, that it's hard for me to get a grip on it or to believe that Dru was as important to Spike as we know she was.

I love Spike/Dru, but mostly because of how destructive and misleading it seems to be. Considering Dru's actions in the series, I don't think she was as loyal to Spike as Spike was to her, and I'm willing to bet this interfered between them more than once, afterwich they had a glorious make up session. After all, Spike was supposedly alone when he was imprisoned by the Immortal, and he was also alone during WW2, and in NY with Nikki Wood. So even in canon, there were times during that 100-year love fest when Spike and Dru weren't attached at the hip, which makes me wonder just how well they really did get along. They must have had fights and arguments and issues like any other couple.

[cozzybob.livejournal.com]

Come to think of it, there really aren't enough Dru & Darla centric stories. The two of them are highly intelligent, gorgeous, interesting women; I still swoon over the Dru/Darla eps in Angel. :D

So that makes me wonder--perhaps Dru and Darla had some more interaction during those 100 years? If Spike and Dru weren't always attached at the hip, who's to say she wasn't spending time with mummy? Fic ideas... *ponders*

And I'll stop now. xD

[shapinglight]

there really aren't enough Dru & Darla centric stories. The two of them are highly intelligent, gorgeous, interesting women; I still swoon over the Dru/Darla eps in Angel. :D

Yes, me too. And I haven't seen many Darla/Dru fics either, though it's possible they're very common in femslash circles and I just don't know about them.

If Spike and Dru weren't always attached at the hip, who's to say she wasn't spending time with mummy? Fic ideas... *ponders*

Oh, yes! She could well have been. Just because we never see Spike and Dru with Darla after 1900 doesn't mean they never met.

[shapinglight]

I like to think that although William did love his mummy very much, and he WAS a bit of a sap, he was also capable enough in his own right.

Well, he certainly wasn't a coward. Even Doug Petrie in his episode commentary thinks William is brave to approach Cecily as he does after the way he's been made fun of though I have seen various Spike-haters say that this just proves that even as a human William/Spike was just a creepy stalker.

Considering Dru's actions in the series, I don't think she was as loyal to Spike as Spike was to her, and I'm willing to bet this interfered between them more than once, afterwich they had a glorious make up session.

Yes, I agree. I also see Dru as being very much the one who made the running in the relationship. I can well imagine that she took herself off at regular intervals to do what she wanted to do.

Where was Dru when Spike was killing Nikki?

[cmdc.livejournal.com]

Have you ever read "Sunday Girl."

http://bbfarchive.dbfandom.com/archive/0/sundaygirl.html

There isn't a whole lot of Spike/Dru interaction but there is some Dru being actually insane. It hits home for me as someone who's taken care of a loved one who was dissociated from reality. You love them, you don't want to leave them, but they are exhausting and frustrating. The story is also fantastic in its own right.

One of the great questions I have about Dru is how much of a high-functioning psychopath is she? All of her characterization on the show is of someone completely off the deep end, someone who needs constant care. However, she must have functioned fairly well by herself for years after she dumped Spike. So exactly how crazy was she? There's a lot of latitude. I also recommend "Madcap Redemption", it's by far the best characterization of the completely confusing character of Dru. I like to think that Dru legitimately loves Spike but that's not necessarily that popular in fanon.

Re: Where was Dru when Spike was killing Nikki?

[shapinglight]

Have you ever read "Sunday Girl."

Yes, I have. I agree with you that the story paints a very vivid picture of an insane Dru. I can't believe she was quite that mad, though, or certainly not all the time. Most of the time in the show, she seems to function well enough to survive on her own, as you say.

I do believe she loved Spike, in fact, just that Daddy's enormous shadow kept getting in the way.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I think, though we saw how Spike feels about Dru, we didn't see the reverse. Dru is so flaky, there's no hard evidence she was actually with Spike every moment, whatever his emotional attachment. That said, constantly having her 'off somewhere' is equally unsatisfactory, as others have said. So I have no answers, and agree that some S/D fic would be interesting.

Do you have an idea of when Darla left the group? Straight after Angel's revelations in China, or did it take longer?

(I'm not going to touch the errors of historical fact and attitude on TV. Once I get started, there are just too many.)

[shapinglight]

Do you have an idea of when Darla left the group? Straight after Angel's revelations in China, or did it take longer?

There's absolutely no clue. I tend to think they stayed loosely in touch until Darla made the decision to return to the Master. In my head, I've placed this post-the Master getting trapped under Sunnydale but that's only because I've written a Spike/Darla fic (in which Dru was absent rather typically) set in 1947.

[kidcyclone.livejournal.com]

I love your historical fics and hope you will write more. I know what you mean about reticence about writing Dru. While I like Dru as a char, and love to read fics in which she's written well, she's pretty exhausting for me to write.

Any scene with her becomes immediately more escalated and tense, due to the presence of a person who really is governed entirely by her own will and her own set of rules. She also is highly intelligent, manipulative and speaks at times in a language of her own that happens to sound deceptively like normal English, so it is a definite challenge to me, even without the precognition being thrown in.

I think you write Dru beautifully. I also like the actresses/whore house theories for what exactly was going on at that so-called 'dinner party' the night William got turned.

As to historical fics, the thing that probably annoys me most about BtVS/AtS historical episodes were the loads of really glaring inaccuracies and the attempts to shoehorn modern sensibilities on history, as well as the apparent lack of caring on the part of the writers about doing it. When I write, I just try to write with as much accuracy as possible, and say screw 'canon.'

Then again, I suppose I more or less said 'screw canon' from the first fic I ever wrote so I may not be a good example...

[shapinglight]

and hope you will write more

I would certainly like to. I have only one concrete idea, which is an Angelus/Darla fic set in the 1760s. It'll need a lot of research, though.

Dru is difficult to write, though hello_spikey makes it seem easy. It's always going to be difficult to write someone who sees the world in such a unique way.

As to historical fics, the thing that probably annoys me most about BtVS/AtS historical episodes were the loads of really glaring inaccuracies and the attempts to shoehorn modern sensibilities on history, as well as the apparent lack of caring on the part of the writers about doing it.

Sadly, I think they didn't care and didn't think anyone else would care either.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

You well know my stand on Spike and Dru, so I won't repeat myself. But, if you are in the mood to write a bit of an historical yarn (yes, please!) I humbly submit pre-WWII Germany. Mmmmm, Weimar-era nightlife. *huggles it* You know you want to. I've got Christopher Isherwood's Berlin Stories at my bedside now, but you don't want to wait for me to do all the research, do you? I didn't think so!

Regarding the historical and linguistic inaccuracies: I realized from the moment Spike said "teevee" instead of "telly" at the end of School Hard that they weren't going to get certain details right. Harrumph! But, at least they made the imperfect attempt to include the Commonwealth and prior eras. Not many shows do. I'd love the show less if they hadn't put those things in there, even if I do cringe at the poor research. (Here's where I go into my screed about the lack of Latino culture in a show set in Southern California, but you've heard all that before, as well. Shutting up, now.)

[shapinglight]

You well know my stand on Spike and Dru, so I won't repeat myself.

You do write them very well too, whereas I can't seem to get a bead of them. I find it easier to write Spike/Darla, even though they're not a canon pairing. Weimar Germany would be a wonderful period to set a fic, and I would quite like to do it. For one thing, it would give Spike and Dru the opportunity to kill lots of Nazis without it seeming unbelievable. But research. Yes, there'd have to be lots of research.

Regarding the historical and linguistic inaccuracies: I realized from the moment Spike said "teevee" instead of "telly" at the end of School Hard that they weren't going to get certain details right. Harrumph!

True, though lots of people say TV here now too. And I agree that BtVS/AtS is a lot kinder to us Eurotrash than most American TV shows, even if it does for the most part ignore its own minorities.

[kseenaa.livejournal.com]

Oh, I would so love to see your take on Spike/Dru. :-) They are, by far, my absolute favorite pairing in the show. :-D

[shapinglight]

:Waves: The missing comments have turned up at last. Sorry I missed this. I have written a bit of Spike/Dru here and there, but never a long story with them as the central pairing. If an idea occurs to me, I'll certainly give it a bash.