A few thoughts on Sleeper/NLM

[shapinglight]

Yesterday, I watched a slew of BtVS episodes for the first time in ages- Restless, OMWF and Sleeper and Never Leave Me, and it struck me in NLM just how vehement Buffy was in her speech to Spike about how she believes in him.



I guess that jumping into the middle of the story like that and missing all the build up (ie. the church scene in Beneath You, Spike coming to help Buffy in Help etc) her vehemence struck me far more forcibly than it did last time I watched these episodes. It's very important to her to believe that Spike has not deliberately set out to kill and she gives him way more benefit of the doubt than she does Anya in Selfless. She won't act against him until she's 100% certain he's guilty.

(That said, Anya's actions at the frat house were revealed to Buffy as a fait accompli by someone she trusted (Willow) and no uncertainty as to whether or not Anya was culpable ever arose).

Once she is certain, however, her first instinct is still to execute him, and only the interference of the First stays her hand. From then on, once she realises how much he's been acted upon, her faith in his wish to become a better person - which he's rather vague about himself - never seems to waver once.

I'm still a bit puzzled by this, seeing as I don't believe for one minute that Buffy was in love with Spike pre-season 7. I suppose her motives are conflicted, as everyone's are. She knows he's a monster (and in case she's forgotten, he paints a deliberately graphic picture for her in NLM, including a reminder of the worst thing he ever did to her), but she also knows she owes him one, because she used him, which she admits openly. And once she's seen into his soul (the convo in the bedroom), she won't allow him to condemn himself or give up (a bit like with Angel in Amends only with less high drama). She really is a pick-'em-up-by-the-scruff-of-the-neck-and-shake-'em type, isn't she?

Plus, the soul is a big, big deal for her. It's the macguffin that allowed her to say that Angel wasn't responsible for the things he did without a soul, which in turn allowed her to go on loving him. I suppose it's not surprising that it means more to her than it does to her friends. None of their relationships revolve on the having/not having of a soul.

Anyway, this is just vague rambling. I probably wrote much better pieces about these episodes in my re-watching season 7 posts.

Restless and OMWF are still awesome, btw, were there any doubt. OMWF made me all teary. Poor, poor Buffy!

ETA: re: Sleeper, I'm still puzzling over that line of dialogue when Spike begs the First to make him forget again because he did what the First wanted. Were Fury/Espenson going with Spike knowing on some level what he was doing in return for the First allowing him to forget about it afterwards, or what? If they were, then he is culpable after all, so I don't think it can be that. So what does he mean?

ETA 2: Just re-read my review of Sleeper and though I didn't think then, any more than I do now, that what Spike said about 'make me forget again' was meant to mean he'd known what he was doing all along, I still don't really know what it means.

ETA 3: Heh! Just re-read my NLM review, and I was puzzling over Buffy's vehemence then too.

Comments

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Granted, it has been a bazillion years since I watched Sleeper, but I had a vague memory of thinking that it wasn't about forgetting the present things so much as ammeliorating the pain of all the things. The unsheilded memories (with some egging on by the First) short circuited him. It was more than Spike could handle all at once and forgetting or muting memories was The First's way in...sort of like the dust John Crichton was snorting in Season 4 Farscape.

I thought of it more as how The First got its position of power to begin with. The present memory wipage was more to The First's benefit than to Spike's as it was keeping The First's presence more hidden. The present mindwipage was more of a continuation.

But, again, it has been AGES since I watched so I cannot even say how I built that particular impression.

[shapinglight]

But, again, it has been AGES since I watched so I cannot even say how I built that particular impression.

I think I thought the same as you when I first watched it, though like you, I can't remember where I got the impression - maybe from Spike saying he'd been losing time for a while, or maybe from the way he behaved in the school basement? I don't know. Taken out of context like this, I couldn't work out what else it could mean except what I didn't think it could mean, because then Spike would still be guilty.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

It may be connected to his ramblings in the basement and the way he (rather suddenly) pulled himself out of the basement. It may (and again my memory here is beyond vague) that The First was taking advantage of Spike's insanity in the basement and used that as a way in allowing Spike to appear somewhat normal by muting the memories only for us to understand how this worked in Sleeper?

It's a bit like blind fanwanking, though. I can't remember exactly how I reached these conclusions. :)

[shapinglight]

I'm very fond of season 7, but there's no doubt that a great deal of fanwanking is required for anything to make any real sense.

[rahirah]

It's possible that Buffy was simply able to step back and look at Spike's actions of the last few years and see that he was trying (however imperfect his motives, and however often he failed) to be a better person, and just acting on that. I don't believe she'd have to be in love to reach that conclusion. But I think it's just as likely that rehabilitating Spike was a way of rehabilitating herself in her own eyes after their destructive affair.

I suspect Spike's bit about forgetting was just writerly flailing because they really didn't have any plan for what the First wanted Spike for, or what it could do, or why it was doing it.

[shapinglight]

But I think it's just as likely that rehabilitating Spike was a way of rehabilitating herself in her own eyes after their destructive affair.

Yes, I'm pretty sure that came into it. In fact, having just watched OMWF, where Spike tells Buffy that life is just living and you have to get on with it, rather echoed for me in the basement scene in NLM, except with the dynamic reversed.

just writerly flailing because they really didn't have any plan for what the First wanted Spike for

Could well be. There were times during my rewatch a few years back when I was sure I'd worked out what the First's plan vis a vis Spike was, but I don't even remember how I worked that out now.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Oh yes. Word.

[elisi]

I'm just going to quote the_royal_anna:

Buffy talks a lot in Season 7 about the fact that Spike has a soul. Of *course* it matters to her. It is everything to her, because she is the one who lost Angel his soul. That is who she is. That is what she is worth. She is the destruction of what is good and the end of hope, and she can save the world a thousand times but that will still hang over her. Until now. Because suddenly this is how much she is worth – she is worth a soul. She is worth a vampire going out and getting a soul for her, all for her, and yes, it matters to her. She is the Slayer and she can do anything and everything but she cannot earn back that soul, that damn soul that was lost at her hands and regained only for her to destroy it again, sending it to straight to Hell. But this time, this vampire takes it out of her hands. *She* cannot earn back that soul but he can. And what Buffy is only just starting to understand is what he can do for her is as much hers as what she can do for herself, that this gift of a soul is part of who he is, and who she is, and who they are.

I think what I love most about Season 7 is that over the course of it, Buffy and Spike become stronger and more dependent.

In a world that loves to tell us we should all be strong and independent there's something very extraordinary about that.

Re. Angel in 'Amends' Vs. Spike in NLM, then I wrote a short comparison here once upon a time.

[deird1]

...you beat me to it. :)

[shapinglight]

Very nice quote, though I'm not sure I'd take it quite that far.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I guess I always saw Buffy being in love with Spike since at least season 6 (or even earlier), so Buffy's vehemence in NLM sounded natural to me. I agree, the very notion of a soul was very important to her because it let her separate Angel from Angelus. But, otherwise - yes, I think that Buffy loved Spike and she refused to have a relationship with him because she couldn't stand the idea that once chip was out she had to stake him.

[shapinglight]

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this one, Moscow. I do think she had feelings for Spike before season 7. She admits it herself in SR just before things go to s**t, but I'd hesitate to call it love.

I do think her feelings had deepened by the end of season 7, though, because of him getting the soul. But I think it wasn't just the soul-getting that was important but the trying, which is why she makes a big point in NLM of reminding him he was doing good things before that.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I do think her feelings had deepened by the end of season 7, though, because of him getting the soul.

I might be a cynical person, but I think that Spike being sexually inattainable played a big part. Buffy always wants what she can't have. :)

[shapinglight]

I'm sure that factored into it, though possibly his decision to be unattainable was one of the things that made her feelings deepen.

It's definitely one of the most complex relationships I've ever seen on television. It has to be really, because of the AR. Joss tied himself in a horrendous moral knot with that one. I'm just glad he didn't take the easy way out and have Spike go evil again so Buffy could cheerfully kill the nasty rapist.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I don't think he had ever considered such way out. I might be wrong, but the way I see it, Joss needed an obstacle big enough to keep them afraid of their feelings during almost the whole season 7.

[shapinglight]

You're probably right. I suspect were he doing that storyline now, it would have a very different ending. The furore that erupted over the AR probably taught him a thing or two.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Who knows? I hope Joss will speak about it sooner or later.

One of the problems with bigger-than-life heroes is they they make bigger-than-life mistakes. Moreover, in serialized art they make them regularly.

So, after five years, when Scoobies got used to forgive murders (Jenny Calendar), tortures (Wesley in Five by Five) and even the attempts to end the world (dark!Willow) within a single episode, a writer had to think hard to make up an obstacle to keep the necessary level of UST between protagonists for a whole season.

[shapinglight]

Who knows? I hope Joss will speak about it sooner or later.

I suspect he's said all he'll ever say on the subject of the AR, unless someone pins him down with very specific questions in an interview. Even then, I think he'll parrot out the replies he's given in the past, ie. wanting to show that it's possible for someone to come back even from that if they're genuinely sorry, and not having Buffy and Spike get physical again in season 7, 'because that would be wrong.'

It does irritate me no end that Spike alone, among all the characters who did awful things in the show, has been singled out this way. It's a combination of factors, of course, to do with how contentious an issue rape still is, and how realistically the scene was shot etc etc.

I think Joss would stand by his decision to do the scene, though. Even Jane E, who was very against it, tows the party line now.

[hesadevil.livejournal.com]

I'm still puzzling over that line of dialogue when Spike begs the First to make him forget again because he did what the First wanted.
I always took that to mean that the deal with The First was to make Spike forget what he'd done when souless; to quiet the voices in his head. What The First had wanted was for Spike to get Buffy down in the cellar.

[shapinglight]

I always took that to mean that the deal with The First was to make Spike forget what he'd done when souless; to quiet the voices in his head.

It's possible, but have to say, if that was what the First was doing, it didn't do a very good job, judging by the way Spike was behaving in the eps previous to Sleeper/NLM.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

It seemed to me that The First was give him brief instances of "quiet"--just enough to tease him or what have you. Like in "Selfless"--before the real Buffy entered, First!Buffy was pretty much soothing him.

Unless of course, it wasn't First!Buffy but Spike's very own delusion of Buffy...It isn't made clear, but I'm betting on First!Buffy.

[shapinglight]

Hi, and sorry to have been so slow replying. I agree with you that it was definitely First Buffy. First Buffy is the version of Buffy who offers Spike what it thinks he wants. But it's not what he needs. Heh!

[hello-spikey.livejournal.com]

I found Buffy's vehemence in support of Spike just a sign that she excepted him as "core cast" - the scoobies were always vehement in forgiveness to each other. Any act done by a 'hero' is forgivable, even when the same act done by a mere supporting character osterizes them for life. (If it had been Buffy to accidentally stake the mayor's minion, would Xander and Willow have insisted she turn herself in and serve a murder sentence?)

... pet peeve of mine.

[shapinglight]

(If it had been Buffy to accidentally stake the mayor's minion, would Xander and Willow have insisted she turn herself in and serve a murder sentence?)

Sadly, we'll never know, but probably not. I'm not a big Core Four (or Core Three or whatever) fan, but feel I have to say in Buffy's defence that she was always willing to look outside their little huddle and include others as love interests, even at the expense of the Scooby dynamic. And though Willow and Xander do both irritate me at times, I do understand their circle the wagons mentality, given how young they were and what they experienced.

That trait becomes less attractive as they get older, obviously.

[shadowkat67.livejournal.com]

Just re-read my review of Sleeper and though I didn't think then, any more than I do now, that what Spike said about 'make me forget again' was meant to mean he'd known what he was doing all along, I still don't really know what it means.

They were underlining the addiction theme that they had going on in those two episodes. BTVS - once everyone left high school, started doing vampirism = substance addiction more and more (following the same tatic that they did in Angel.)

Note in Never Leave Me - Buffy compares Spike's need to blood to alcholism or drug use, when she states, we need to get him blood, he's going through series withdrawls, when Willow jokingly offers Anya, Buffy states, no we need to wean him off of the human blood.

Also the Aimee Mann songs that they deliberately used in Sleeper refer to drug addiction. The line: "I can't keep you from the market place" or "it's about drugs..." - while he's hunting info.

Spike acts like someone whose been out drinking himself into a coma each night, to get rid of the pain, and doesn't remember what he did during it. This is by the way similar to the metaphor they use in Angel - he loses his soul whenever he gets "high". So what the First does with Spike is more or less the same thing - gets him high. The First is Spike's drug dealer.

It's not a great metaphor, but that's what they were going for.

Regarding Anya? There is a clear difference between Anya's actions and Spike's. Spike is "drunk" or not capable of making a choice. Anya is "sober" and fully capable. Also, with Anya, Buffy had already ignored what Anya did in Beneath Me, she saved the man, but she gave Anya a pass when she turned him back. With Spike - she just has Holden Webster, and when she gets home - she's told by Willow that Holden could have been lying because Willow and Dawn had bad experiences the same night. There was not enough evidence against Spike for anyone to make a case at that point. So, in reality, she is basically giving him the same benefit of the doubt she gave Anya - keep in mind Anya was a vengeance demon for several months, and had turned a guy into demon that killed people long before Selfless.
Buffy gives her a pass in Beneath Me because Anya turned him back. She does the same in Selfless - because Anya takes it back. Anya shows "remorse".

With Spike - she sees his remorse. First in Beneath Me - when he informs her that he got a soul because he knew no other way to make it up to her for the attempted rape. He is filled with remorse for it. She helps him in Him, because he helps them with little in return. And then in Sleeper - she sees his remorse first hand, he is repelled by what he is done. Unlike Anya, Spike can't take it back with a wave of a magic wand, although when Anya did it - it took another demon's life.
So Spike wants Buffy to kill him. Buffy chooses not to, and vehement about her belief in him - because as she states - "you risked everything to be a better man, you faced the monster and fought back." "You are alive because I saw your remorse."

She gives him the same chance she gives Anya and Willow for more or less similar reasons.

[shapinglight]

They were underlining the addiction theme that they had going on in those two episodes. BTVS - once everyone left high school, started doing vampirism = substance addiction more and more (following the same tatic that they did in Angel.)

You may well be right. This is something I'd never even thought of, but it does work, now that you mention it.

As for the qualitative difference in the way Buffy treats Anya and Spike, I did make sense of it back when I did my original reviews. It was all down to choice. That was very, very important to Buffy. She reiterates that when dealing with Andrew in later eps. When Andrew complains that Spike has killed way more people than him and she doesn't treat Spike the way she treats him, she answers that Spike didn't have free will when he killed the people in the basement, but Andrew did when he killed Jonathan. And, of course, Anya chose to become a vengeance demon again.

Buffy's really very consistent, despite what Xander says in Selfless about people she's had sex with getting a free pass. It's really not true.

[candleanfeather.livejournal.com]

Sleeper and Never Leave Me are two of my favourite episodes too.

"ETA: re: Sleeper, I'm still puzzling over that line of dialogue when Spike begs the First to make him forget again because he did what the First wanted. " I don't have much time to comment now (work once again), but Frenchani's brilliant essay on the First (it's a psychanalytical reading but without any verbiage) makes sense of that part of dialogue. Here for the essay : http://community.livejournal.com/lateseasonlove/2371.html

I'll try to come back later.

[shapinglight]

Thanks very much for the link, love. I will read it with interest, and I will answer your latest email as soon as I can.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

She really is a pick-'em-up-by-the-scruff-of-the-neck-and-shake-'em type, isn't she?

rofl! Best description ever of Buffy. :)

[shapinglight]

Heh! Maybe I should have said swift-kick-to-the-arse type. There's certainly an element of that both in her scene with Angel in Amends, though it's a bit overblown, what with her being so young etc, and definitely in the Spike in the school basement scene at the beginning of Selfless where she comes striding in all dressed in black and demands he stop being mad and make himself useful right now!

Damn, I love Buffy!

[quinara]

Buffy's vehemence always seems quite natural to me as a response to all the times Spike has been vehement when Buffy was unsure - to me it's about the dynamic of their relationship, where one of them will always be certain about something and supporting the other. Dunno whether the writers meant me to see that though...

As for the "make me so I forget again", I always understood it as a simple plea for the First to take back the memories he just regained, ie. "make it so I forget [and don't have the memories] again", with the "I did what you wanted" as an end-of-his-tether bargaining chip. I never saw it as an unreasonable exclamation!

(Sorry I make no sense; long day.)

[shapinglight]

(Sorry I make no sense; long day.)

You make pefect sense, don't worry.

I don't know either if that character dynamic is deliberate, but it's true that all Spike's certainties about himself are broken down in season 6, whereas Buffy's are very slowly (and not always convincingly) built up again, so that she is able to support him and help him find his way in season 7, the way he'd tried to help her in early season 6.

[yourlibrarian]

None of their relationships revolve on the having/not having of a soul.

Yes, the comparison with Xander and Anya is a particularly interesting one. Because he is dead set against Buffy killing Anya. Anya was depowered and made human but she wasn't at all contrite about her years of killing, rather unlike souled Spike, and very unlike souled Angel. Yet presumably Anya is now souled as a human, too, so that whole issue is rather muddy.

[shapinglight]

Yet presumably Anya is now souled as a human, too, so that whole issue is rather muddy.

Very muddy indeed! Of course, Anya is a comic character for the most part, which helps explain her apparent lack of remorse in general (not funny), but it doesn't explain in the larger context why it's okay for Xander to date her in his opinion and not okay for Buffy to date Spike/Angel (again, in Xander's opinion).

I can remember David Fury getting in a right muddle when someone asked him about Anya's souled/unsouled status. I think he said that she had a soul when human but that when he became a vengeance demon again after the wedding that wasn't, she lost her soul again. Which makes no sense because Anya at the end of season 6 is a wonderful, supportive, soulful character.

[yourlibrarian]

::nods:: See, this is one reason why S/X didn't seem as counterintuitive to me as to some, because his behavior with Anya shows rather clearly that Xander's objection to Spike has to do with Buffy, and less to do with him being a demon. If we also assume he is bi then his hostility to Spike (and Angel) starts taking on a somewhat different tone.

[shapinglight]

because his behavior with Anya shows rather clearly that Xander's objection to Spike has to do with Buffy, and less to do with him being a demon.

Hmm, not entirely sure I agree, though the fact that it was Buffy obviously does play a big part in things. However, when Xander was dating Anya she wasn't a demon and I had the impression reminders of her former status made him pretty uncomfortable.

[yourlibrarian]

That's true, he never liked it -- and we'll never know for sure if he would have continued the relationship had she been a demon again since that happened after they were on the outs. But I feel that Spike's chip performed the same service as Anya's humanity in many ways -- both had no powers, and when given the chance she immediately takes them back. But one could say her ambivalence in using them the second time was similar to Spike resouling himself.

[shapinglight]

But one could say her ambivalence in using them the second time was similar to Spike resouling himself.

Yes, there is a distinct similarity. Anya inflicts vengeance but ends up feeling really bad about it, a bit like Spike in Smashed trying to nerve himself up to attack that girl in the alley.

[ex_peasant441]

I'm confused about what is puzzling you about the 'make me forget again' line. It's always struck me as a straightforward plea for the peace of amnesia to be returned to him. He was unaware he had been killing again, the discovery that he is is unbearable and he wants to not know once more so he won't be tormented by it. Where's the puzzle?

[shapinglight]

It's the 'I did what you wanted' line. It suggests that Spike is getting the amnesia (only about his recent doings, mind, not about his past murders) in return for something. Like he's made some sort of bargain with the First. If that was the case, it means he's guilty of the latest crop of murders too.

[ex_peasant441]

Oh I see. I always the assumed the 'did what you wanted' was luring Buffy to the house (which was presumably the whole point of letting the amnesia slide in the first place) rather than having killed the people per se. I didn't get the sense of a pre-arranged bargain so much as Spike realising what he had done and why and just desperate for the pain to be taken away so he offers the only bargaining chip he can think of - he has done something that benefits the First so the First owes him one.

[shapinglight]

Except that doesn't really work either unfortunately. He didn't lure Buffy to the house. He phoned her to tell her he was remembering stuff - ie. he admitted she was right and he was guilty as charged and she should come to that particular address to see the awful truth- before the First says anything. In fact, the First is a bit miffed with him for owning up. Says the 'Slayer's not in order' but that it can make it work.

[ex_peasant441]

Oh right, yes. Back to the drawing board for that one then.

Well why did the amnesia start slipping then? Maybe to send him mad again? But if they weren't to kill the Slayer what were all the baby vamps for?

I don't actually expect you to have answers to these questions (though it would be nice if you did).

I probably need to watch the season again and then I can remind myself not to expect it to make any sense.

[shapinglight]

Well why did the amnesia start slipping then? Maybe to send him mad again? But if they weren't to kill the Slayer what were all the baby vamps for?

I know I had a theory - or more like several theories - when I rewatched the season in 2006, but I can't remember what they were offhand.

And a lot of it doesn't make sense. I just don't like that bit of dialogue because it's been used in the past by Spike haters as evidence that he knew what he was doing all the time and is irredeemably evol!!!!