shapinglight | Spuffel

These smooshed up names for 'ships can be very silly, even irritating, but I do like this one. It sounds like the name of a disgruntled teddy bear.

So anyway, the latest semi-official (and very badly worded) Word From On High about the whole who does Buffy love most, Spike or Angel, revolving around that little threesome fantasy panel from one of the early Buffy comics (for full details of which go here), has got me thinking about S/B/A as a threesome again.

This has no bearing on Georges Jeanty's right to have an opinion, by the way, before anyone says it does. He believes that Buffy loves Angel more than Spike, fine. Lots of people do. He also believes that she has some kind of feelings for Spike, though it's hard to make out what exactly, and unfortunately in his attempt to explain it, poor Mr Jeanty manages to make Buffy look like an enormous slut who is stringing two men along, but never mind. Essentially, Jeanty's view, as is the view of many others, is that the level of feeling between B/A and S/B is unequal and weighted towards B/A.

Come to think of it, I've probably read fanfics where the threesome was written like that. And I may have read some where the weighting went the other way. There may even have been some where poor Buffy was getting in the way of the pure, true love of Spangel. However, I don't think I've ever read one where the relationships between the three participants were all equal.

There are some that are very good, among which I include

missmurchison's hilarious S/B/A trilogy. There are probably some others too that I enjoyed at the time and have forgotten, or possibly found vaguely unsatisfying and have forgotten. But I've forgotten them, so I can't link to them. However, I haven't managed to write one myself (Vampire Winter was the closest I ever got, and that's not very close at all). I've been wondering why that is and have decided it's because I can't think of an earthly reason why these three characters would threesome-up, even though I like the idea and it's the obvious solution to the 'shipper wars.

I want to write one, though, and have decided that the best way to approach it might be as I approached Spike/Buffy as a settled pairing in The Worst Journey in the World- ie. showing it as a fait accompli and not the whole point of the story. This will have the dual effect of not making me have to spend hours racking my brains to try and work out how these three characters - Spike in particular - would go for this, and also not having to write a threesome sex scene, which I'm sure I would do very badly.

Actually, even though I love smut - yay!for smut! - I think I'd be inclined to try and write an S/B/A story where there's no smut at all. Hmm, maybe I won't write that Spangel story for

plot_wout_porn after all?

Or, I could just take Georges Jeanty's idea and run with it.

Angel: Buffy, where are you going? Didn't you say home is where the heart is?
Buffy: I did, but I'm having one of my periodic bouts of being fed up of you hogging the TV remote and brooding a lot. I'm off to the cabin in the woods for some R&R with Spike.
Spike (out in the cabin in the woods): I'm bored! :chops another log, twiddles thumbs, sighs: Being the holiday getaway is all very well, but at least she could have got me cable.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

hello-spikey.livejournal.com

I still hang my jaw in confusion that anyone sees B/A as other than a ship that sailed... I mean... did they not watch after season 3?

But okay, yeah... it takes all kinds. I mean, some people think Xander is hot. *shudder*

So, yeah. When I get near Spuffel, it's usually Buffy and Angel both want Spike and have to put up with sharing... hee.

From:

shapinglight

So, yeah. When I get near Spuffel, it's usually Buffy and Angel both want Spike and have to put up with sharing... hee.

A woman after my own heart. That said, I do want to try writing Spuffel where it's equal in every way, which I think will be very tricky.

Maybe I should set it in a dimension where Spike, Buffy and Angel are the only inhabitants? That might work.

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From:

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From:

shipperx.livejournal.com

You consider Jeanty to be an official word on high? I don't. IMHO, it's about on par with Fury and Noxon boughts of fandom inflammatory insanity. And I really wondered whether Jeanty realized that his description of Buffy was basically calling her a preadatory bitch? (Actually, I don't wonder. I don't think that Jeanty 'got' that at all from his description. I just wonder how he justifies (in his mind) saying that Buffy uses Spike for an ego boost and thinking this doesn't reflect on her horribly).

Edited Date: 2010-03-01 06:19 pm (UTC)

From:

shapinglight

You consider Jeanty to be an official word on high?

Not really, no. In fact, not at all. A lot less than Noxon and Fury, whose views might well have influenced Joss.

And I really wondered whether Jeanty realized that his description of Buffy was basically calling her a preadatory bitch?

I'm sure he doesn't. He'd probably be mortified if he realised how it comes across. He always strikes me as a very nice man who is basically clueless about fandom. In this instance, he was probably trying to please everyone in line with his own views and has ended up digging a big hole for poor Buffy.

From:

yourlibrarian

Oooh, a S/B/A from you! And as an established relationship at that (there are always a dearth of these).

From:

shapinglight

I hope to do it. I'd have to think of a plot first, though. Dealing with the 'ship(s) will be a lot easier if I have a plot and a setting.

From:

ubi4soft.livejournal.com

*According to Jeanty

Buffy: Oh, Angel, you're my one true love and in order to appreciate better I need to spent some time/sex with Spike.

Jeez!

From:

shapinglight

Yes, poor man! I don't think he realises what he's said.

From:

elisi

::ignores Jeanty::

the best way to approach it might be as I approached Spike/Buffy as a settled pairing in The Worst Journey in the World- ie. showing it as a fait accompli and not the whole point of the story.
That's how I approached it in my fic - or rather, I had S/A as the settled pairing, and then only had to work out how to add Buffy. :) I look forward to seeing what you might come up with.

From:

From:

next_to_normal

*eyeroll* at Jeanty, though I do love your little snippet. Poor cableless Spike.

I've been wondering why that is and have decided it's because I can't think of an earthly reason why these three characters would threesome-up, even though I like the idea and it's the obvious solution to the 'shipper wars.

Same here, lol. Mostly, I can't see Spike and Angel ever agreeing to share Buffy.

Perhaps the reason no one writes an equal relationship among all three is because it's hard to see a perfectly equal relationship happening? I imagine that a threesome with those characters would be fraught with insecurity, with each of them assuming the other two love each other more and feeling like the odd one out. (

rahirah wrote a drabble series to that effect.) Even though all three relationships work separately, there are so many other unresolved issues surrounding them that love might not be enough to make it work as a threesome. (Now that I think about it, I'd like to see a threesome fic that explored all those issues, without the need to make it a functional relationship.)

From:

shapinglight

From:

shapinglight - Date: 2010-03-02 03:02 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

flake-sake.livejournal.com

I think to do full balance in Spuffel isn't easy.I usually fail at the Buffy/Angel side of things, for me it's mostly Buffy and Angel being in love with spike and he with them in very different ways.

Part of the allure of the threesome is that it would have a shaky balance though, where the triangle always tips in a certain direction.

From:

shapinglight

Part of the allure of the threesome is that it would have a shaky balance though, where the triangle always tips in a certain direction.

True, but it would have to be different directions at different times or it wouldn't be equal.

I think I can manage the B/A - managed it in Vampire Winter - but it does have a habit of taking over that can be a bit difficult. I also think that some S/B and some S/A 'shippers have an advantage over some B/A 'shippers (the extreme kind) when writing this threesome, in that if you are a certain kind of B/A 'shipper, it's a matter of faith that Buffy never loved Spike, and that Spike and Angel never loved each other (if you even entertain the idea of slash at all, which of course many S/B 'shippers don't either), whereas S/A and S/B 'shippers can't deny that Buffy loved Angel because it's canon.

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From:

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From:

calturner.livejournal.com

I don't think I've ever read a Spuffel fic that actually works for me. Admittedly I haven't read many, but not even

herself_nyc could make it work for me - and she can usually just about make anything work.

I think the problem I have with it is that I see Buffy/Angel as a 'ship that sailed at the end of S3. I loved them when they were together in the early seasons, but they both moved on from each other. Buffy to Riley and then Spike, and Angel to Cordelia. I can't honestly see any scenario post-Chosen where the three of them would suddenly decide being together is a good idea. I can just about see Spike/Angel if I squint really hard (LOL!), but that's about as far as it goes.

As for the comics, I don't think Georges Jeanty has a clue what he's talking about.

From:

shapinglight

but not even herself_nyc could make it work for me - and she can usually just about make anything work.

Yes, I'd have to agree. It's possible she didn't really believe in it herself.

I can't honestly see any scenario post-Chosen where the three of them would suddenly decide being together is a good idea. I can just about see Spike/Angel if I squint really hard (LOL!), but that's about as far as it goes.

I think it would have to be a pretty extreme scenario, verging on the apocalyptic. On the other hand, maybe that's the easy way out. Hmm.

As for the comics, I don't think Georges Jeanty has a clue what he's talking about.

Well, in this case, he certainly doesn't have a clue how his words can be construed, and without much effort.

From:

2maggie2.livejournal.com

Spuffel's not my cuppa cause I don't get B/A as an on-going concern, and like you I find it hard to see how Spike could be very happy with it. I love your Spuffy drabble though!!

Jeanty's picture would reflect badly on Buffy, wouldn't it? It's like the Bangels who argue that Buffy gave Spike the amulet to spare Angel and obviously didn't care enough about him to have his death mar her happy ending. How can they not see what that makes her?

I find it mostly funny how the Bangels keep running in for reassurance. Not sure what to make of the fact that they keep getting it.

From:

shapinglight

and like you I find it hard to see how Spike could be very happy with it.

Yes, it's difficult to imagine how his fragile ego (or fragile where Angel's concerned) could cope with it. I already imagine him as thinking that Jeanty has the right of it, and I suspect that came across very strongly in Vampire Winter, though I tried hard to show Buffy as feeling for both vampires equally but differently. Probably didn't work, though. I suspect you're always the worst judge of your own fic when you've just posted it.

Jeanty's picture would reflect badly on Buffy, wouldn't it?

It would. I'm amazed that he can't see that, just as I'm always amazed by people who hold the view about Spike and the amulet you cite. As an Angel fan, if I thought Buffy was like that, I'd want Angel to run away from her and never look back.

I find it mostly funny how the Bangels keep running in for reassurance. Not sure what to make of the fact that they keep getting it.

Hard to say. Either it means they're going to get some approximation of what they want, and the Spuffies are going to get a kick in the teeth (seems the most likely option to me), or the PTBs are worried about how people are going to react to the Twilight thing and want to give people something to make them feel better beforehand, or they just don't know there are such poor benighted folk as Spuffy 'shippers in the first place so they don't feel the need to give them reassurance.

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From:

cozzybob.livejournal.com

Spuffel!! I've always thought S/B/A, but I really like that name more. The teddy bear image makes me think of grumpy cuddle fic, which is adorable. :D

and also not having to write a threesome sex scene, which I'm sure I would do very badly.

Ditto you there, avoid it if you can. Threesome sex scenes are an absolute nightmare.

From:

shapinglight

The teddy bear image makes me think of grumpy cuddle fic, which is adorable. :D

The

missmurchison fic I mentioned has some grumpy cuddling in it. It's also very funny, which is one of the reasons why I like it so much. :)

Threesome sex scenes are an absolute nightmare.

I knew it!

From:

trepkos.livejournal.com

It sounds like the name of a disgruntled teddy bear.

Yes!

From:

shapinglight

One of my nieces once asked K what her teddy bear was called (K was 4 at the time). K got this hunted look on her face, as the bear didn't have a name. Then she announced, "He's called Snoover."

I always thought that was very funny.

From:

jnb71976.livejournal.com

Here via rec from

sueworld2003. Big smiles for Vampire Winter - I read that fic on EF a couple years ago and was simply SCANDALIZED to discover I was reading my first ever slash :). HaHaHa - it was the first story I read which paired Angel and Spike. I really loved that story. If I recall correctly, it made me cry.

When you said you were nervous about writing a threesome sex scene it made me think of an S/B/A fic I read quite awhile ago - can't remember the name or the author, sadly - I think it was set sometime after BtVS Season 4. Anyways, the threesome are at the Hyperion and the A.I. team has just found out about their romance. Cordy is mortified and also wildly curious - she says something to Buffy like, "Both of them? How does that... work... exactly?" And Buffy replies very nonchalantly, "Well lately, Angel takes the front and Spike takes the back." And Cordy about spits up a kidney. It was such a WRONG way to describe it - it made me laugh.

I have read some very good S/B/A, but mostly bad. Would love to see an authentic, honest depiction of the three of them in an everyday relationship scenario.

From:

shapinglight

Thanks for your kind words about Vampire Winter. :) Much appreciated.
:feels smug for having broken your slash cherry:

I don't think I've read the fic you mention, but then I don't seem to have a very good memory for fics these days so I may well have. It does sound like a very funny scene, though.

Would love to see an authentic, honest depiction of the three of them in an everyday relationship scenario.

I would too. Preferably with plot. But it's awfully hard to imagine how it a) come about and b) not dissolve into horrible anguish very quickly.

From:

penny-lane-42.livejournal.com

Hello!

First off, I just wanted to say that there isn't nearly enough Spuffel (hee!) fic in the world, especially good stuff, so I'd love to read your interpretations.

Second, I wanted to share my two favorite B/A/S fics, which show completely different sides to the relationship(s).

An Exploding Cigar We Willingly Smoke (http://tyleet27.livejournal.com/29013.html) is made of gorgeousness.

The very brief Troika (http://archiveofourown.org/works/17516) is all about an even relationship ("even" in terms of heartbreak, actually, and is probably the most realistic look at what a threesome with these three would look like).

I'm also one of those people (there's more than two of us! I swear!) who tends to start scanning when things get too porny, so the idea of no-smut-S/B/A just thrills me to death.

[ETA] About the Jeanty thing: like all Spuffy fans, I'm used to the ship being kicked around all the time. What I'm not used to is the idea of Buffy using two people as horribly as that comment suggests. She definitely did use Spike because he was convenient in S6 (and he didn't care much about her feelings, either, as long as he got what he wanted), but to me the entire point of their relationship in S7 was that they were moving past that, that they were seeing each other as people. The idea that they'd never use each other again is their biggest triumph for me. So his thoughts are insulting to fans of any of those three characters--that Buffy would behave that way, and that Spike and Angel would stick around and put up with it.

Edited Date: 2010-03-02 03:27 pm (UTC)

From:

shapinglight

First off, I just wanted to say that there isn't nearly enough Spuffel (hee!) fic in the world, especially good stuff, so I'd love to read your interpretations.

Well, if I ever manage to write it I hope you enjoy it.

I had forgotten about Tyleet's fic. You're right. It's wonderful. I'm sure I even recced it at

buffyversetop5 along with about a dozen other people.

Hadn't read Troika before, but I must say it encapsulates (deliberately) the very relationship that Jeanty seems to envisage, which can ultimately only lead to badness for all concerned.

What I'm not used to is the idea of Buffy using two people as horribly as that comment suggests.

My overall impression of Jeanty is that he's a very nice man, knows very little about fandom and has little idea there are such people as S/B 'shippers. To him, it's crystal clear that Buffy was still in love with Angel in EoD/Chosen and he probably thinks everyone thinks that and has no idea that when he keeps banging the point home in every Q&A he takes part in, he hurts an awful lot of people's feelings. Actually, I doubt he's thought about it much at all. He certainly can't have thought very hard about what he says here, because it is indeed rather appalling and insulting to all three characters.

In Jeanty's defence (and why I should defend him, I don't know, since every time the subject comes up he stomps all over my ex-Spuffy heart), I can only say again that I don't think he can possibly have meant it the way it sounds and that it's just possible he may have got an inkling now that there are people who like Spike with Buffy and he thinks he's throwing them a sop.

Or something.

Edited Date: 2010-03-02 03:57 pm (UTC)

Re: here via petzepellepingo

From:

penny-lane-42.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-03-02 04:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

From:

shakatany.livejournal.com

In the early days of my wandering around the Buffyverse-on-the-web as an ardent Spuffy-ite, I came across a few S/B/A fics like Laure Alexander's Sin Wagon (http://www.meanderingmuse.com/sinwagon.html) series which was basically PWP and since it was set in S4 in Sunnydale I could just picture it happening. Now years later both in real time and Buffy-time with so many things having happened in the interim I cannot see them setting up a menage a trois but as I don't read the comics and don't consider them canon I really don't care what happens (though I doubt anything hinting of kinky sex threesomes would appear in the comics - think of the children *sarcasm*)

Shakatany

From:

shapinglight

Hi. I'm very sorry to have been so slow answering your comment. Unintentional, I assure you.

I've read The Sin Wagon and enjoyed it very much, though it has a very olde worlde feel to it now, because it was written before Spike/Buffy was an actual 'ship, as opposed to just wishful thinking on Spike's part.

And you are of course right that apart from that one dreamscape panel, any actual threesome stuff will be absent from the comic.

From:

kidcyclone.livejournal.com

1. I would love to see your take on Spuffle

2. The word 'Spuffle' is brill

3. Thank you for the link to Miss Murchinson's stuff, it was very funny and I'd never seen it before

4. Now you've got me thinking about Spike in a schoolboy uniform and duffle coat, doubtless looking rather stroppy while Angelus looks delighted in a pervy sort of way (this of course would be set in the 1950's - perhaps Angelus had a scheme involving St Custard's or something that required him to pass himself off as the new Latin master and Spike as a schoolboy ...and everybody else to be oblivious to the fact that Spike is much too old to be in a prep school)