Game of Thrones season 2 ep 7 : The (almost) clueless about the books POV

[shapinglight]

Had visitors this weekend and way, way behind with everything on LJ. But before I try and catch up I wanted to post this, as I've just watched the ep.

Spoilers behind cut



Will say first of all that I didn't believe for a moment that the two bodies Theon showed Maester Luwin and the Winterfell people at the end of the ep were Bran and Rickon. In fact, I'm not sure anyone watching would have believed it, given that the two are Starks (and therefore Important), and that the episode telegraphed earlier on that there were two boys of a similar age available to get horribly murdered in their place. Whether I or the rest of the audience believe it is not important, of course, only that Maester Luwin and co might, and there's no reason why they wouldn't. It just seems a little odd to leave it as a cliffhanger when it's not one for anyone outside the story.

Or am I giving the audience too much credit?

Speaking of Theon, I'm rapidly losing patience with him. Don't feel sorry for him any more at all. In fact, if it weren't that I know it'll be really horrible when he does arrive, I'd say hurry up, Bastard of Bolton, and take Winterfell back. And speaking of Boltons, Bolton Snr is becoming more and more unnerving. The way he just hangs about staring meaningfully at Robb or whoever happens to be handy (Lady Talisa in this ep) and doesn't say anything makes me feel very uncomfortable. I wonder if I would feel that way if I didn't know anything about him?

Some great scenes in this ep, though apart from the odd reference here or there (Tywin telling Arya this is the war that will define him, Tyrion telling Cersei that Stannis Baratheon's ships are on their way, Robb riding off to accept some castle or other's surrender) it's not at all clear what's going on with the wider war. I suppose we have to assume that the Lannister/Stark confrontation is a bit of a stalemate, no one yet knows about the Iron Islanders, and the brown stuff won't really hit the fan until Stannis does arrive. Meanwhile, the poor peasants get hammered and massacred (see the first scene in Harrenhal). Business as usual, in fact.

Not that the interchanges in the episode didn't advance the plot. They did, at the same time as deepening the characters. Some lovely scenes for Arya and Tywin (well, I don't know if 'lovely' is quite the right word, but they get on really well. I think he should adopt her), Sansa and Cersei and Cersei and Tyrion - about the only nice scene those two have had, in fact, and nice to see that they're on the same page about more than just loving Jaime. Cersei knows Joffrey is a wrong 'un, even if she wouldn't admit it to anyone outside the family. I'm pleased about that, without being quite sure why. I suppose it's because I would rather understand Cersei than not, and despite what she said to Sansa about only loving your children, no one else, I'm glad to see there are limits, even for her.

Or maybe not. Maybe, next ep, she'll have someone executed for not letting Joffrey join the Boltons' flaying!yay! school, or start slapping poor Sansa around again. I don't know.

Poor, poor Sansa! I'm glad she has Shae at least.

Jaime Lannister got quite a bit of screen time in the ep - which is good, because he's been missing for a while, and Nicolaj Coster-Waldau is too good to waste. Have to say, though, the scene in the cage with the hapless Lannister cousin went on a little too long. I'd guessed what was going to happen the minute the poor bloke said that squiring for Jaime had been the best day of his life. Not that it wasn't a shock when Jaime turned on him. Made me jump.

Michelle Fairley as Catelyn was once again brilliant in this ep, and once again (seemingly) saw through Jaime's attempts to goad her into killing him (or did she? What is she going to do with Brienne's sword?).

Then there are our two spoilt brats - well, that's a bit harsh, but both Dany and Jon were a little brattish in the previous episode, and there are elements of brattishness in their behaviour in this ep too. Jon, I just feel like saying, "Don't be silly," to, except that if he gives in to Ygritte (who I really like) it sort of feels like a betrayal of Sam, his better half, so I don't want him to.

As for Dany, her treatment of her host (Xaon, is it? I keep missing it) and of Jorah is understandable in the circumstances. She's proved right not to trust Xaon (Xaos?) anyway, though I think he'll regret allying with that creepy wizard bloke, and with Jorah I realise she's prickly because she discovered he's loyal to her because he loves her, and this makes her uncomfortable (because she doesn't feel the same way. Sob!) and consequently makes her feel she has to distance herself from him. For what it's worth, though, I believe Jorah absolutely when he told the masked woman he would never betray Dany again (I assume the first betrayal was him telling Lord Varys about her marriage to Drogo and her pregnancy), but the way these things go, it wouldn't surprise me if he managed to do it by accident. Double sob!

We'll see. A terrific episode, though rather episodic, like the last one. I hope the final three will gather these disparate strands and knit them together (while understanding that the story isn't over, and the Dany stuff - and probably the Jon stuff too - isn't going to fit with the 'main' Westeros plot for a while yet).

Trivial stuff:

I really had to suspend my disbelief about Jon and Ygritte - especially Jon, since he doesn't even have a hat - not freezing to death lying on the snowy ground like that over night.
My reaction to that final scene of the children's burned corpses was actually relief (sorry!). I'd thought Theon's men were going to execute Maester Luwin.
I hope Brienne gets to beat the crap out of Jaime Lannister (in a knightly way) for that 'beast' crack.
Poor Irri! Glad to see Dany mourning her and admitting that following her has done her khalasar no good. I hope Doreah's all right.
As I said before, poor, poor Sansa!
I see Ghost continues to be the most useless direwolf ever. 'Course, I'll take it back if ep 8 begins with him leaping down from the nearest glacier to save Jon.
No Bronn for the second week running. Obviously, he was on Joffrey slapping duty again.

Comments

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Theon really needs to be gone now, I just want to fast forward when he's on screen. So assuming that's not Bran and Rickon (and I agree, it's pretty transparent that it's not) he just signed his own death warrant for ... nothing. Say what you want about Joffrey, but at least he's an efficient idiot. (Not that two innocent boys are "nothing", but it's interesting that the episode starts with Tywin talking about how he doesn't care about them killing a bunch of innocents to strike fear into people's hearts, he wants the person actually responsible... and ends with Theon murdering two innocent people in a way that only gives people more reason to want him dead, without solving any of his (considerable, and self-inflicted) problems.)

In other news, Ygritte intrigues me and I wish to subscribe to her newsletter ravens. "Did you pull a knife on me?" Heee! Jon is so very very very clueless, isn't he? I'm going to assume that Ghost ran into some northern husky bitch and fell in the exact same trap.

And the Arya/Tywin scenes continue to be awesome. At this point I'm pretty sure he knows what she is, if not quite who - though he must have a list of likely suspects, and Arya's talk about her mother having served some lady or other seems like it could be pretty easy for him to check... So why is he keeping her around? He just spent last episode talking about how "cold" he is, so I doubt that it's surrogate fatherly love. At the same time, he doesn't seem to be in any hurry to lock her up either. Hmmm.

As nice as the Tyrion/Cersei scene was, though, I'm not sure where they're taking Cersei. She's spent the last couple of episodes becoming more and more likable and wearing an "oh my god what hath I wrought" face every time Joffrey comes up, and I keep waiting for her to reveal that she's plotting something.

[shapinglight]

(Not that two innocent boys are "nothing", but it's interesting that the episode starts with Tywin talking about how he doesn't care about them killing a bunch of innocents to strike fear into people's hearts, he wants the person actually responsible... and ends with Theon murdering two innocent people in a way that only gives people more reason to want him dead, without solving any of his (considerable, and self-inflicted) problems.)

Well, I suppose it's an object lesson in not listening to dodgy subordinates. My own prediction is that this Bastard of Bolton will turn up, re-take the castle and flay everybody (it being a family tradition), and if Theon manages to send for help beforehand, Yara will just ignore him.

Hmm, if that does happen, I shall feel sorry for him again. What a waste of a life (or more likely lives, since the Bastard of Bolton probably won't stop at just one).

"Did you pull a knife on me?" Heee!

Heh! Yes. And agree Jon is clueless. If it weren't for Sam, I think Ygritte should keep him. He's not safe out on his own.

The Arya/Tywin scenes are terrific. I know he's not keeping her around because he cares about her. Currently, he finds her amusing and he doesn't have any other even half-congenial company. Wouldn't surprise me if he's guessed who she is. I wonder how that will work out. I don't know what happens to Arya in the books, but I do know that she was never Tywin's cupbearer, so this is all new.

I'm not sure where they're taking Cersei.

Me neither. Maybe we're supposed to assume that Joffrey becoming unmanageable has knocked the stuffing out of her, I don't know, but it's hard to believe she's finished.

[kikimay]

Agreed: those boys aren't Bran and Rickon. Theon (or his men) are bluffing. Tywin/Arya share the best moments and I'm curious to know what's next: Arya is going to make the final move, but what if Tywin already knows about her and Jaqen?
I hope that Cersei's plotting Joffrey's death, that would be pleasant.

[shapinglight]

I hope that Cersei's plotting Joffrey's death, that would be pleasant.

It would, and despite what she said about only loving your children, currently I wouldn't put it past her. We'll see.

I'm pretty sure Tywin has guessed who Arya really is, so I have no idea what game he's playing.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Does he know that Cersei and Joffrey don't have Arya? They haven't let it be public knowledge, have they, that Arya was never captured, and Littlefinger said "daughters" plural (and then we never heard the rest of the conversation).

I definitely think that he knows something is up with Arya and he's keeping an eye on her for possible use later. I'm unclear whether he knows that his Northen cupbearer is the actual Arya Stark, though.

[owenthurman.livejournal.com]

Tywin put a knife in Arya's hand and then dramatically turned his back to her for a while. He was testing something, though I'm not sure what.

I think he already knows who she is and hasn't yet figured out a way to take advantage. And also that he enjoys having her. Maybe he's biding his time to see how the war goes and figure out whether to trade her as a hostage or marry her off to some important grand-nephew in a few years.

The guard seems to be keeping an eye on her, so I expect Tywin is being careful about possible spying. He doesn't seem to know anything about Arya's connection with Jaqen because Tywin thinks the dart was aimed at him.

[shapinglight]

Ooh, good thinking. Now I'm veering back the other way to believing he does know who she is. :)

[shapinglight]

I definitely think that he knows something is up with Arya and he's keeping an eye on her for possible use later. I'm unclear whether he knows that his Northen cupbearer is the actual Arya Stark, though.

You're probably right. At any rate, I'm certain he knows she's keeping a lot of stuff from him, and that she hates him. He just finds it amusing because he doesn't believe he has anything to fear from her.

Hmm, hope they're not going to have Tywin be Jaquen's third victim. I've gathered that's not what happens in the books, but the show may change that. I'd miss Charles Dance terribly.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

About those two burned children - did I imagine shock on Theon's face when he saw them? Like it wasn't what he expected to see?
Could it be the Bolton bastard arrived already and that was his first act - to horribly murder the decoys while covering Stark children escape, and taking Stark children into custody/as hostages at the same time?

Could it be this Bolton's guy strategy - commiting undercover atrocities and pinning them on Theon's men, to kill two birds with one stone? Or am I giving too much credit to Boltons...

It just really seemed to me that those children wasn't Theon's doing.

Otherwise - terrific episode, especially Sansa part. The intercutting of a horror of gang rape, blood and marriage to Jeoffrey was brilliantly done, while horrifying for her.
And then we got another talk with Cersei showing her human face, both to Sansa and to Tyrion.

The thing with Cersei - I believe her both when she's acting as a human and as a monster, sometimes at the same time. It makes her so interesting and that hasn't happened in a while.

Like when she was taking to Catelyn about death of her baby and wishing Bran recovery, while plotting his death at the same time - I believe she meant both, she was really sorry for another mother losing her child, while solving her own problem to protect her own children.

Or the talk with Ned when she admitted her love affair with Jaimie, and now a talk with Sansa and Tyrion - she was sinsere with them but could have been plotting horrible things for both.

She just thinks it's a part of the whole unjustice that is life, and she's just have to play her part.
She's similar to Jaimie here, who feels disgusted by the roles he has to play, but plays them all the same, because life is an ugly thing.
He wanted to be killed and killed two men to achieve that - including his adoring cousin. Yes, I thought that cousin was going to die but was shocked it was Jaimie who did that.

Now Catelyn getting that sword and all those talks of amputations before that - I hope she's not going to hack some parts of him off. What if it gets known in Lannister camp - I shudder to think how they might retaliate with Sansa. :(

And Xaro has shown his cards at last - he took the city and Dany with dragons too, not sure how she can escape now... I was sad to see spice merchant go.
What is Doreah doing? I'm afraid she might have been on a betrayal. And what about that masked woman? I had a crazy thought it might be Doreah.

As for Dany: I read Book 2 till the point explaining who Dorn people are, the ones getting Myrcella. The wife of Raegar Targarean, killed with her children by Robert's and Lannister men, was from Dorn's house. So they hold a grudge against both Baratheons and Lannisters (maybe less against the latter now, with Myrcella), but they might be Dany's natural allies. They would want a Targarean back on a throne. We'll see.

[ladypeyton.livejournal.com]

About those two burned children - did I imagine shock on Theon's face when he saw them? Like it wasn't what he expected to see?

I saw the shock, too, but I think it's more that Theon is new to being a plain-dealing villain and didn't realize how gruesome his orders would be until he saw them carried out.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, IIRC he made pretty much the exact same face after he chopped (and chopped, and chopped) Ser Rodrik's head off. Theon's in very far over his head.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Makes sense too. But it really look like suprise too.

So if that was done on his orders, it meant he passed some strange children corpses, burned beyond recognition on purpose, for Stark children. Meaning he won't be pursuing them further? That's an interesting angle.

[shapinglight]

Meaning he won't be pursuing them further? That's an interesting angle.

I don't think he's necessarily given up the search. He's just not conducting it in person any more.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

But why would he continue the search when he just publicly displayed that he found and killed "Stark children"?
Wouldn't it humiliate him further, in everyone's eyes, if they discovered he didn't actually find the children?

I.e. if it was done on his orders, and it's a coverup, it had to be a cover for giving up on Starks pursuit.
Now for what reason - either he really didn't want to be cruel to Stark boys but feared he had to be, because of Ironborn peer pressure? Or maybe because he thought he couldn't catch them anymore, but wanted to conceal it from the Ironborn, not to look a failure to them?

[shapinglight]

But why would he continue the search when he just publicly displayed that he found and killed "Stark children"?
Wouldn't it humiliate him further, in everyone's eyes, if they discovered he didn't actually find the children?

Well, I suppose the people of Winterfell wouldn't actually know whether he was still searching for the children or not, would they?

Whatever it is, if he has given up the search, I'm sure it's not because he wanted to spare the Stark boys.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

OK, now it gets even more confusing - if he got those orphan boys killed in Starks' place, then surely they'd be missed by this farmer's family, and then folks would connect the dots and suspect that Stark boys still could be about? Again, to the embarrasment for Theon?

Unless he plans to kill this entire family next, to bury the ends...

No, I'm still at a loss at what really happened there. Guess the next episode will explain it.

[shapinglight]

Wouldn't surprise me if Theon's henchman killed the farmer and all his family, but I doubt it will even be mentioned.

[shapinglight]

It just really seemed to me that those children wasn't Theon's doing.

I think I'm inclined to agree with the others -that the look on his face is down to not realising quite how awful the results of his orders would be. I also don't think he's necessarily given up trying to catch Bran and Rickon, but maybe terrifying the people of Winterfell into submission was more important. He probably left the men with the dogs to continue tracking the children.

The intercutting of a horror of gang rape, blood and marriage to Jeoffrey was brilliantly done, while horrifying for her.

I agree. That was very well done. She knows Joffrey well enough to make the connection, poor girl.

And very good analysis of Cersei.

And what about that masked woman? I had a crazy thought it might be Doreah.

Now you've said that, you've got me wondering too. Hmm.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I've wondered that too! (I believe Doreah died in The Waste in the books... and Irri is still alive in the books), so they are in new territory. I too wondered whether it was her beneath the mask.

And another name drop. Mask lady said the sailor was going past the Doom of Valeria. Valeria (who knows if I spelled that correctly) is sort of their version of Ancient Rome or Atlantis, an empire that in ancient times went the way of Pompeii, Santorini Minoans, or Atlantis. Think volcanoes.

[shapinglight]

Ooh, interesting. I'm beginning to think that mrs_underhill has hit the nail on the head with the masked lady. Which begs the question, why was Doreah with the Dothraki? Was she really just a captive slave or was something else going on?

I can't remember what was said about her origins when she first turned up.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Doreah was bought by Viserys to teach Dany ways to please Drogo, after working in some of the free cities pleasure house since she was 9. That's the official version everybody knew.
But maybe she has a hidden agenda?
It seems there are many women from the Free Cities posing as someone else with a mystery behind them - like Shae or that nurse with Robb.
Maybe Doreah is similar to them, and fooled Viserys into this appointment? She talked about dragons an awful lot in Season 1. Hmm.

[shapinglight]

Maybe Doreah is similar to them, and fooled Viserys into this appointment? She talked about dragons an awful lot in Season 1. Hmm.

She certainly did. I wonder.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Whether I or the rest of the audience believe it is not important, of course, only that Maester Luwin and co might, and there's no reason why they wouldn't
True. Or what the reaction might be by the Starks in the South. I mean, can you imagine Catelyn and Robb?!

[shapinglight]

Or what the reaction might be by the Starks in the South. I mean, can you imagine Catelyn and Robb?!

They'll go ballistic. And I bet you that when they go ballistic, Roose Bolton'll be hanging around to ask them if they've reconsidered their flaying!Nay! policy.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

>>the scene in the cage with the hapless Lannister cousin went on a little too long

Boy did it, I mearly snoozed through the rest of the ep!

Theon's ruse is very transparent.

Ygritte is wonderful, I have to say, in all the ways Brienne isn't for me. Jon, I think reads too young, more like his age at the beginning of the books (though I don't know what age he is meant to be by this point). How on earth did he avoid Ros for so long?

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

In the book I think he's 14.

But it may be funnier this way. :)

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

Yeah, 14. I've read the first 30 or so pages.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, all the characters in the books are almost absurdly young.

At any rate, I enjoyed laughing at Jon's emo looks on the show. :)

[shapinglight]

Ygritte is wonderful, I have to say, in all the ways Brienne isn't for me. Jon, I think reads too young, more like his age at the beginning of the books

He is very clueless, isn't he? He did explain in season 1, though, why he avoided Ros. Something about not wanting to bring more bastards into the world. They do seem to make a big fuss about that in Westeros, considering Jaime Lannister could claim that the fact he's only ever had sex with his own sister made him more honourable than Ned Stark.

Mind you, he was trying to goad Catelyn into killing him at the time.

[bogwitch.livejournal.com]

I must have forgotten that.

That's very noble of Jon though. I think Ygritte has a point.

[shapinglight]

I think Ygritte definitely has a point. Jon should lighten up and join the Wildlings, except that then poor Sam would be bereft.

[kassto.livejournal.com]

No way would they kill off Bran... his whole story is too portentous and interesting. And, as the Daily Telegraph reviewer said, the author has a fondness for physically damaged and misshapen and clumsy things – Bran, Tyrion, Brienne, Sam etc.

I really like Bronn. Were you missing him?? We are an episode or two behind you but I am hopelessly spoiled.

Whenever I see Jaime, all I can think of is the nice German tennis player he was cast as, in Wimbledon... ;-)

[shapinglight]

I really like Bronn. Were you missing him?? We are an episode or two behind you but I am hopelessly spoiled.

He hasn't been in the last two episodes, which is sad. Even if he only gets one line (which is what usually happens), it's always a good one.

Whenever I see Jaime, all I can think of is the nice German tennis player he was cast as, in Wimbledon... ;-)

I hadn't made the connection. I did enjoy that film, though, even if the weather was unfeasibly sunny the whole time, which was very unrealistic. Well, a British player winning the Men's Singles title is pretty unrealistic, but you know what I mean.

[kassto.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Bronn and Tyrion make a great pair.

I liked Wimbledon. Find Paul Bettany a charmingly self-deprecating actor. Loved him in Master and Commander with Russell Crowe.

[shapinglight]

Yeah, Bronn and Tyrion make a great pair.

They do. It's a pity Bronn appears to have no scruples whatsoever.

I like Paul Bettany too. He was terrific in A Knight's Tale as a very unlikely Geoffrey Chaucer.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I liked that movie.

[shapinglight]

Yes, it was fun. I loved Eleanor Bron and Jim Broadbent (?) as the eccentric parents.